bronx wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:50 pm
Tommy..no question JG was a real gangster..died a brutal death..he gave a made guys wife a baby, his whole crew dealt drugs, killed the boss without permission to cover it up.broke any rule of cosa nostra to satisfy his ego and wants..not a true cosa rostra guy, a gangster non the less..dellacroce was true to the bone cosa nostra
Agree but almost everyone breaks the rules , that’s the funny part IMO
Not to the extent that JG did. He had NO business being a boss.
When you look back at the guys that came before him, and how serious they were....there was a real level of commitment and discipline to living the life. These guys quite literally DID NOT FUCK AROUND. I remember when I was a kid, an up and coming guy who was eventually going to get made, horsing around with the rank and file, and Papa Dave Amodeo pulled him on the side and gave him a stern talking to. Not to "fraternize" with the knuckleheads, and carry yourself a certain way if you're going to be "with" them.
Those old timers had much more discipline and saw the rules as a way of life, not just an option to follow when they felt like it, like JG.
I agree but by the late 70s and 80s most of the bosses or top capos were breaking the rules. Outside of the Westside, Bosses we’re getting whacked, rivals killed , internal civil wars etc.
Gotti was certainly no boss material but most of the others weren’t either during his time IMO.
They could have convicted Gotti without Gravano because they hid the jurors this time so it would be fixed. But Gravano was needed for much more then Gotti. Gravano took down allot of guys. He sent Bobby Cabert away for life and allot of other guys. But Gotti did himself in with his own mouth and ego.
IMO Gotti was a Non entity and an unofficial Boss . Whatever Gambino had in mind he could elect whoever he wanted as his successor as he did in Castellano his cousin and a fellow Sicilian . Gotti really did desecrate the entirety of the life and the LCN as many got into they're heads they could do as they please and abandon rules and turn everything into a " ME" organization . As much as they say Castellano was hated and all this nonsense he was still the popular choice amongst his fellow commission members who fully supported him along with the rules . After 1985-1986 and the Commission trial and the bosses and others were hit with life terms and the killing of Castellano the families, They're soldiers, Associates and others all went on one of the most violent years long episodes in LCN history where families were involved in Civil wars , Families were split into factions , And bodies were dropping everywhere at any second . I blame all of this squarely on Gotti , The Colombo war , The lucchese bloodbath , And every other thing going on . If it weren't for Gotti I don't think half of this stuff would of happened or went on as it did . Everyone looked at Gotti and said , If he could do it and get away with it why can't we/I ? What rules ?
Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:02 pm
IMO Gotti was a Non entity and an unofficial Boss . Whatever Gambino had in mind he could elect whoever he wanted as his successor as he did in Castellano his cousin and a fellow Sicilian . Gotti really did desecrate the entirety of the life and the LCN as many got into they're heads they could do as they please and abandon rules and turn everything into a " ME" organization . As much as they say Castellano was hated and all this nonsense he was still the popular choice amongst his fellow commission members who fully supported him along with the rules . After 1985-1986 and the Commission trial and the bosses and others were hit with life terms and the killing of Castellano the families, They're soldiers, Associates and others all went on one of the most violent years long episodes in LCN history where families were involved in Civil wars , Families were split into factions , And bodies were dropping everywhere at any second . I blame all of this squarely on Gotti , The Colombo war , The lucchese bloodbath , And every other thing going on . If it weren't for Gotti I don't think half of this stuff would of happened or went on as it did . Everyone looked at Gotti and said , If he could do it and get away with it why can't we/I ? What rules ?
That's why Gigante hated Gotti's guts. Gotti killed Gigante's partner on the top level & did it with apparently no permission. However, in Gotti's defense, it was kill or be killed. Did any of the other 3 Bosses know about Gotti's plan to kill Castellano?
Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:02 pm
IMO Gotti was a Non entity and an unofficial Boss . Whatever Gambino had in mind he could elect whoever he wanted as his successor as he did in Castellano his cousin and a fellow Sicilian . Gotti really did desecrate the entirety of the life and the LCN as many got into they're heads they could do as they please and abandon rules and turn everything into a " ME" organization . As much as they say Castellano was hated and all this nonsense he was still the popular choice amongst his fellow commission members who fully supported him along with the rules . After 1985-1986 and the Commission trial and the bosses and others were hit with life terms and the killing of Castellano the families, They're soldiers, Associates and others all went on one of the most violent years long episodes in LCN history where families were involved in Civil wars , Families were split into factions , And bodies were dropping everywhere at any second . I blame all of this squarely on Gotti , The Colombo war , The lucchese bloodbath , And every other thing going on . If it weren't for Gotti I don't think half of this stuff would of happened or went on as it did . Everyone looked at Gotti and said , If he could do it and get away with it why can't we/I ? What rules ?
That's why Gigante hated Gotti's guts. Gotti killed Gigante's partner on the top level & did it with apparently no permission. However, in Gotti's defense, it was kill or be killed. Did any of the other 3 Bosses know about Gotti's plan to kill Castellano?
As far as I know , No they didn't know . Only Gotti and Co. Knew . I'm surprised Gotti wasn't banned from the commission/Commission meetings . At the time the Bonannos were banned for drug trafficking and a few other things but Gotti was allowed after an unsactioned killing and then currying favor and support from the Colombos and Bonannos
If I remember right they reached out and got approval from certain power players in the other families. My memory is hazy but I believe they were Joe Maasino, Gaspipe Casso and Gerry Langella (no positive on him). They didn't reach out to anyone in the Genovese family.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:52 pm
If I remember right they reached out and got approval from certain power players in the other families. My memory is hazy but I believe they were Joe Maasino, Gaspipe Casso and Gerry Langella (no positive on him). They didn't reach out to anyone in the Genovese family.
Pogo
Yeah, it was Langella that responded, "What are you waiting for?" Obviously also Amuso/Casso.
Did they reach out to Massino? Massino made the comment years later that he never would have approved the Castellano hit. But he could have been rewriting history.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:52 pm
If I remember right they reached out and got approval from certain power players in the other families. My memory is hazy but I believe they were Joe Maasino, Gaspipe Casso and Gerry Langella (no positive on him). They didn't reach out to anyone in the Genovese family.
Pogo
Yes , Your right ! Funny how they got backing from Vic and Psychopath Casso and then in turn Vic and Schizophrenic were the main antagonists looking to show Gotti to his grave
My memory is hazy but I believe they also reached out to the Bonnanos. It would have been mentioned in the Gotti books or Gravano's book.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Bklyn21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:02 pm
IMO Gotti was a Non entity and an unofficial Boss . Whatever Gambino had in mind he could elect whoever he wanted as his successor as he did in Castellano his cousin and a fellow Sicilian . Gotti really did desecrate the entirety of the life and the LCN as many got into they're heads they could do as they please and abandon rules and turn everything into a " ME" organization . As much as they say Castellano was hated and all this nonsense he was still the popular choice amongst his fellow commission members who fully supported him along with the rules . After 1985-1986 and the Commission trial and the bosses and others were hit with life terms and the killing of Castellano the families, They're soldiers, Associates and others all went on one of the most violent years long episodes in LCN history where families were involved in Civil wars , Families were split into factions , And bodies were dropping everywhere at any second . I blame all of this squarely on Gotti , The Colombo war , The lucchese bloodbath , And every other thing going on . If it weren't for Gotti I don't think half of this stuff would of happened or went on as it did . Everyone looked at Gotti and said , If he could do it and get away with it why can't we/I ? What rules ?
Cmon guy. Now your not being real here. A non entity and unofficially boss? Gotti was THE boss. Everybody reconized it. How was he any different from vito genovese? Who himself brought more heat to the westside than anybody before. Because a the don Apalachia was a scandal that forced the j. Edgar hoovers to take off the dresses and makeup and put on them big boy pants and start surveying cosa nostra 24/7. That happened because a vito. Killing little augie pizzano while he was getting his cock sucked by a famous broad. Wacking out the bender. Getting busted because he sat down with spics involved in the drug world who testified against him.He broke his own rule. Dont talk to nobody you dont know. Gotti had nothing to do with the colombo war. That was all junior. Vic and gas was already out to lunch. They was gonna kill buddy no matter what. Old timers had the benefit a not being targets by government when they was young. Had they all been around when the r.i.c.o. was around you would a seen a lot more ratting.
gotti killed a commission boss withour permission and always denied it to chin and out loud, everyone knew he did, they had hit teams on the people involved with the hit, three murders of gambino guys all in revenge and to oust the leadership involved gotti #1 ..so they did not consider him legit boss, if they did ,there would be zero murders including a plot on gotti being on the commission..he was in fact boss in his family for some and not for others they went along just to survive. and that would only be until gas chin et at got to kill him.
bronx wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:15 pm
gotti killed a commission boss withour permission and always denied it to chin and out loud, everyone knew he did, they had hit teams on the people involved with the hit, three murders of gambino guys all in revenge and to oust the leadership involved gotti #1 ..so they did not consider him legit boss, if they did ,there would be zero murders including a plot on gotti being on the commission..he was in fact boss in his family for some and not for others they went along just to survive. and that would only be until gas chin et at got to kill him.
If you go by what you say then big paul wasnt the real boss neither. Not everybody in the family reconized his leadership. The Junior persico wasnt real boss either. Look at the shit storm he created. Same with the Vic and gas but in reverse. They would a not had to kill nobody if they was fully in charge. You follow?
bronx wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:15 pm
gotti killed a commission boss withour permission and always denied it to chin and out loud, everyone knew he did, they had hit teams on the people involved with the hit, three murders of gambino guys all in revenge and to oust the leadership involved gotti #1 ..so they did not consider him legit boss, if they did ,there would be zero murders including a plot on gotti being on the commission..he was in fact boss in his family for some and not for others they went along just to survive. and that would only be until gas chin et at got to kill him.
If you go by what you say then big paul wasnt the real boss neither. Not everybody in the family reconized his leadership. The Junior persico wasnt real boss either. Look at the shit storm he created. Same with the Vic and gas but in reverse. They would a not had to kill nobody if they was fully in charge. You follow?
JIGGS
Bronx shits out in a day more than you’d know in a lifetime J-pal.
You haven’t yet earned the right to even quote bronx.
You follow?
bronx wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:15 pm
gotti killed a commission boss withour permission and always denied it to chin and out loud, everyone knew he did, they had hit teams on the people involved with the hit, three murders of gambino guys all in revenge and to oust the leadership involved gotti #1 ..so they did not consider him legit boss, if they did ,there would be zero murders including a plot on gotti being on the commission..he was in fact boss in his family for some and not for others they went along just to survive. and that would only be until gas chin et at got to kill him.
If you go by what you say then big paul wasnt the real boss neither. Not everybody in the family reconized his leadership. The Junior persico wasnt real boss either. Look at the shit storm he created. Same with the Vic and gas but in reverse. They would a not had to kill nobody if they was fully in charge. You follow?
JIGGS
I partially agree with Jiggs in that Gotti may not have been supported by the other leaders, but he was the undisputed boss of his own family and that's what matters. If Gotti didn't have the recognition & support of the majority of his family, Chin would've had a much easier time deposing him. At the same time, I get Bklyn21's point that Gotti marked the end of the Commission's perceived dominance, and probably helped the Colombos slip into war. After all, Vic wouldn't have had a leg to stand on during the sit-downs of mid-to-late '91 if he didn't have Gotti's support.
bronx wrote: ↑Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:15 pm
gotti killed a commission boss withour permission and always denied it to chin and out loud, everyone knew he did, they had hit teams on the people involved with the hit, three murders of gambino guys all in revenge and to oust the leadership involved gotti #1 ..so they did not consider him legit boss, if they did ,there would be zero murders including a plot on gotti being on the commission..he was in fact boss in his family for some and not for others they went along just to survive. and that would only be until gas chin et at got to kill him.
If you go by what you say then big paul wasnt the real boss neither. Not everybody in the family reconized his leadership. The Junior persico wasnt real boss either. Look at the shit storm he created. Same with the Vic and gas but in reverse. They would a not had to kill nobody if they was fully in charge. You follow?
JIGGS
I partially agree with Jiggs in that Gotti may not have been supported by the other leaders, but he was the undisputed boss of his own family and that's what matters. If Gotti didn't have the recognition & support of the majority of his family, Chin would've had a much easier time deposing him. At the same time, I get Bklyn21's point that Gotti marked the end of the Commission's perceived dominance, and probably helped the Colombos slip into war. After all, Vic wouldn't have had a leg to stand on during the sit-downs of mid-to-late '91 if he didn't have Gotti's support.
I agree with the brooklyn on gotti fucking up the commissions supremacy. At the same the commissions power would have unraviled once the bosses got convicted. for me the gotti factor was more in redirecting the plans big paul might a had in the event he went away. Getting back to my point carlo gambino did not have the total 100 percent support a the family. But he had the s upport a who mattered. Ricobono, joe the blond, lombardozzi, them guys. Same with the gotti. Dechico, sammy bull, dee bee, piney, gallo. Even if jimmy brown, marino, joe butch was'nt behind gotti was it worth a shooting war? What was done was done. And for all his faults gotti wasnt greedy. He stood up to the west side and said fuck you.
If he wasnt reconized as boss chin dont sit down with him. Massino, orena and a muso reconized him as boss. That they plotted against the gotti dont mean they dont defer to him as gambino boss. They wasnt going around him.
