I always enjoy debating with you. We keep it to the topic and we'd never allowed things to get personal between us. I think we both trust each other to be honest in our arguments, even if we completely disagree, which I'm not ever sure that we have.Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:19 amLupara wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:08 amBulletproof argument. Either Violi will face the consequences for fabricating his status or his words hold merit, moreso than a federal agent. This alone should conclude this debate, for now.Chris Christie wrote:Given who Violi was around and where he operated, to inflate his underworld standing as a 2nd in control of a crime family with 30 members would, if from out of nowhere, spread like wildfire and questions raised. The implications of his fabricating it could range from mockery to a death sentence depending on who his enemies were/are. IF Violi was throwing his weight around as a Buffalo rep with no one else, NY would most likely be reached out to from Hamilton/Toronto, "is this guy anybody?" Given his contacts with the Bonannos in NY and Montreal, that question likely didn't have to be raised. Unless Zannocchio was trout fishing in Canada and his proximity was a coincidence.
But ofcourse it won't because certain people here won't have it. Somehow they ignore that after 3000 posts most people's perspective on this subject has not changed much. So where do we go from here?
Is Morena (assuming he gave a shit to begin with and didn't forget the comment as soon the conversation was over) going to tell his Bosses that Violi said he "beat 30 Guy's" for the UnderBoss slot? Are they then going to send someone to La Nova and ask Todaro if there really where 30 guys under consideration for the spot or if Violi's count was off? Assuming Todaro would choose to answer such a ridiculous question and answer that Violi's count was off what would happen then? Todaro turns into Nicky Scarfo and orders him whacked? Or would the Bonannos do the work? How exactly would it play out? You guys are really overthinking and reading too much into what is clearly a throwaway comment made by 2 sociopathic mobsters in private conversation.
Also Christie we are arguing two different things. I'm not questioning their LCN membership and recognition. Tronolone was still a recognized LCN member but that doesn't mean that Cleveland still had a structured and viable OC organization as evidenced by Angelo Lonardo saying point blank that there was no Clevlenad family anymore and that it had been destroyed despite him knowing that there were still about a dozen members still breathing.
Pogo
I think we are debating different things but I'm not sure what the opposing argument is anymore.I believe you're viewing it from the de facto state of things which, if they exist, what difference does it make? The likelihood of any successful revitalization that leads to another era with Todaro in a Magaddino role is highly unlikely, probably impossible. (For that to happen Buffalo would have to gain a stronghold in narcotics, be NY's main middleman and do all this without attracting law enforcement). If that is the argument, I don't think anyone is on the other side of that issue. But then what's stopping someone else from zooming out even more and arguing, with merit, that the American or New York Mafia is not among today's top five world criminal organizations? This isn't the 1950's anymore and all of us can see the trend of where its going. But we're all still here for it.
If someone knew you were a Mafia expert and came up and asked you what connections the declining NY Mafia still has nationally, would you exclude Buffalo? By that I mean fully leave it out, excluding any and all mention of convicted Violi and his recent links with the Bonannos? I suspect you'd say something like: "The Bonannos appeared to have links in the Buffallo/Hamilton area with members or former members of the Buffalo, which had been dormant for 2 decades. A few guys were listed in ranks but take that with a grain of salt."
And I'll respond to the other posts here later on in the day, they're in my queue. Everyone- all sides- are making solid arguments.