The Chicago Outfit (discussion)

[Angelo Santino]

We might actually get something by involving Scott in the conversation. He has FBI contacts which cannot be disputed. Perhaps we can ask him for primary info instead of his take. But we'd get a lot farther with the guy if we stopped implying that he's lying. He may be off but he's not Phil Carlo.

[Pogo The Clown]

His claims put him in line with the likes of Carlo, Volkman, Davis, etc.


Pogo

[toto]

Just because FBI published something doesn't mean every FBI agent has that view. This happens in every kind of work. There's an official line and sometimes it's not even a majority viewpoint but just what the person in-charge believes. In this case the published viewpoint could be different from a particular viewpoint of every FBI agent. I think it's very possible that the published view point could differ from the views of one FBI agent or sometimes it could be possible that speaking to a number of them you get a differing viewpoint from each.

[Snakes]

I rarely post on things related to board drama but this is getting ridiculous. Nobody in either party is ever going to back down or change the other side's mind so what's the point of arguing? I even went back and edited the chart, noting that these are estimations and not official, making them open for conjecture. Now anyone who sees it will know that it's based on estimates because we haven't had anything better source-wise in nearly a decade concerning Outfit leadership and, to be honest, the media and the feds are always playing catch-up with the Outfit's structure and leadership, anyway. Remember when they said Joe Ferriola was top boss? They eventually got it right when they developed Lenny Patrick as an informant but it still stands that they were off for 3+ years. There are so many other examples of contradiction and inconsistency in Outfit watching that it makes it difficult to construct a current picture of it, let alone a succession chart over the years. And anyone who chooses to take the chart as "official" is going to be the same person arguing for 50 made guys anyway so what's the harm in posting it? I guess we could just leave it blank but what would the fun be in that? Everything about the Outfit has to turn into some pissing contest and it doesn't bother me until it starts clogging up threads for people who want to engage in actual discussion on the board, case in point being Rick, who posted two interesting articles a page or so back that were both lost amidst the dick waving and textual gesticulations.

[Pete]

His claims put him in line with the likes of Carlo, Volkman, Davis, etc.


Pogo

This is just wrong and you should be ashamed of your self. I've read two books by Scott the family secrets and the leonetti book both were well done and probably close to 100% accurate, no one is perfect maybe 95% accurate but Carlo and volkman put BS on almost every single page that iceman book was probably 95% BS. I get what your trying to say with Scott taking liberties with certain things but to compare him with those clowns is wrong and unfair and you lose credibility. Scott may inflate numbers Carlo invents murders that never happened! Go ahead and fact check the family secrets book and pm with any inconsistent things you find and we will see where we are at. History tells me though your throwing out your usual general statements with no facts to back it up

[Pete]

Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in

[Sol]

His claims put him in line with the likes of Carlo, Volkman, Davis, etc.


Pogo

Wow Pogo, this is a cheap shot at Scott, who by the way is a member here. Totally uncalled for. Like pete said, his numbers may be off, but he's not inventing murders. Scott is no where near those 3. Debate your opinion and move on Pogo, no need to be guttersnipping at another member here. Especially outside of the graveyard.......Soliai

[Angelo Santino]

That CCC chart that I put together, all that came from Scott. Without him, those photos and info wouldn't have seen the light of day.

-How did that CCC chart of 103 names make it into the structures monolith that was the 2010 chart? That's a good question.
-How does Scott justify inflating the numbers? That's a good question.
-Parillo or whoever from NE, from Assoc to Consig (if that happened, I don't follow it).
-My own- Why the fuck does he insist on labeling bosses as Don or Godfather like that's an official title or calling Zerilli/Tocco the "Founding Dons" in the 1930's.

Rather than imply he's lying, get him into the conversation, ask him why and discuss that. He's not perfect, he might say "OK, I should do that more" or he may hold his ground and explain why. Referring to Merlino as Philly's long time "Godfather' just seems like calling a hamburger filet mignon. Not ripping on Merlino's status but 'Godfather' has a connotation of a widely powerful, experienced and influential old-world Boss and Merlino isn't that.

He's got FBI connections, more than any of us. Perhaps there's a flaw in what he receives compared to what he puts out. Wouldn't it be more viable as fact checkers to ask Scott where he got the information and to post evidence of it? Rather than just write him off as completely noncredible? I guarantee you he has the best intentions. He's not Phil Carlo writing up on some mobster and believing everything he says. He's not some west coast asshole claiming to be an Outfit expert without merit.

[Pogo The Clown]

Really whats the difference? They all have made ridiculous claims, gotten many things wrong and exagerrated their subject matter beyond the point of slight exaggeration (which can be forgiven) into outright fantasy.


If you want to argue that Carlo is ahead fine, I won't argue that, but don't tell me there is that much difference between Scott and a Volkman or a Davis.


Pogo

[Sol]

Really whats the difference? They all have made ridiculous claims, gotten many things wrong and exagerrated their subject matter beyond the point of slight exaggeration (which can be forgiven) into outright fantasy.


If you want to argue that Carlo is ahead fine, I won't argue that, but don't tell me there is that much difference between Scott and a Volkman or a Davis.


Pogo

Pogo, the topic is about The Chicago Outfit, you're making it out to be about Scott. We have an entire forum here dedicated to us or those who want to voice their dislike towards another member. You are not going to change Snake or pete or anyone else mind on what is what on the Chicago outfit. Again state your opinion and move one. Don't derail this thread because you have something or dislike Scott (I'm not sure if you dislike him or not, but it totally looks like it from where I'm sitting).......Soliai

[Pogo The Clown]

Actually it was Pete who brought him up and made him the focus of discussion. I have nothing againt the guy personally. I'm just disagreeing with his claims. I haven't name called or attacked him personally.


If Ernest Volkman, Michelle McPhee, Jon Davis, Carlo (if he were alive), etc joined the forum would we no longer be allowed to challenge their claims because they are now members? I remember when Christie and others disagreed with some of Dave C's (whose also an author and a member here) claims and nobody got up in arms over it.


Pogo

[Sol]

Actually it was Pete who brought him up and made him the focus of discussion. I have nothing againt the guy personally. I'm just disagreeing with his claims. I haven't name called or attacked him personally.


If Ernest Volkman, Michelle McPhee, Jon Davis, Carlo (if he were alive), etc joined the forum would we no longer be allowed to challenge their claims because they are now members? I remember when Christie and others disagreed with some of Dave C's (whose also an author and a member here) claims and nobody got up in arms over it.


Pogo

You definitely can challenge anyone claim, nobody here is above being challenged, but calling an Author a Phil Carlo (who is known for making things up and who is an outright BS artisit) sounds very personal. I don't remember exactly what Christie (or anyone else for that matter) said about Dave C, but I'm pretty sure they didn't call Dave C a Phil Carlo (or anything close to that) in the mafia forum. If I'm wrong, please guide me to their post or pm me their post.......Soliai

[Pogo The Clown]

OK so I won't call him a Phil Carlo.


To add to my earlier point I remember back in the day you (and several others) challenging Scott D over his Silverman book or Kenji over his book. And some of those challenges weren't as polite or as diplomatic as mine.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

Actually it was Pete who brought him up and made him the focus of discussion. I have nothing againt the guy personally. I'm just disagreeing with his claims. I haven't name called or attacked him personally.


If Ernest Volkman, Michelle McPhee, Jon Davis, Carlo (if he were alive), etc joined the forum would we no longer be allowed to challenge their claims because they are now members? I remember when Christie and others disagreed with some of Dave C's (whose also an author and a member here) claims and nobody got up in arms over it.


Pogo

You definitely can challenge anyone claim, nobody here is above being challenged, but calling an Auther a Phil Carlo (who is known for making things up and who is an outright BS artisit) sounds very personal. I don't remember exactly what Christie (or anyone else for that matter) said about Dave C, but I'm pretty sure they didn't call Dave C a Phil Carlo (or anything close to that) in the mafia forum. If I'm wrong, please guide me to their post or pm me their post.......Soliai

Dave C said two things:
1) The D'Aquilas split off of the Morellos, after he states that the Morello's had about 10 members.
2) The Profaci family was established after D'Aquila's murder to bring stability in Broolyn.

On the first, he claims he had the source stored away in a box. I gave him a year, he never got back to me, but that's ok. His 10 member- thing came from a 1902 meeting on Prince Street with Lupo and Morello with 10 other people including Inzerillo. He assumed D'Aquila "broke off" of Morello because D'Aquila had an address on E105 and got married on E106, right in Genovese Harlem... I understand why he came to these conclusions but he has no source stating D'Aquila was "under" Morello except for a quote from Gentile to Lonardo when they were all "under" Morello when he was BOB before he was incarcerated.

Dave C's not my favorite person. But if someone asked me for a list of mob books that deal with the pre-1930's, I would mention his and Mike Dashes. I disagree with both, but as a researcher, I respect their efforts.

[Sol]

OK so I won't call him a Phil Carlo.


To add to my earlier point I remember back in the day you (and several others) challenging Scott D over his Silverman book or Kenji over his book. And some of those challenges weren't as polite or as diplomatic as mine.


Pogo

You're definitely right about what I said about Kenji and Scott D over the Silverman book over at the other forum, especially Kenji. But I wasn't a mod trying to keep an entire forum running smoothly for everyone back then.......Soliai