Feds say ailing mobster Peter Gotti isn’t sick enough for early release

[Etna]

If this were say a Crip Boss or a Mexican Cartel Boss I very much doubt any of you guys would be saying they should be let out. Carmine Persico was responsible for dozens and dozens of murders. Sick or not why should he ever have let out of prison? Same for the Gotti's.


Pogo

100% agree

[bert]

If this were say a Crip Boss or a Mexican Cartel Boss I very much doubt any of you guys would be saying they should be let out. Carmine Persico was responsible for dozens and dozens of murders. Sick or not why should he ever have let out of prison? Same for the Gotti's.


Pogo

100% agree

How can you say what we would think on it if you never saw us discuss it?

[bert]

Maxie, as far as rats/informants are concerned, I think it's actually a good thing there is no honor among thieves. Without informants, how is law enforcement supposed to harm organized crime? Professional criminals backstabbing each other is good for normal citizens imo.

"There is no honor among thieves" is tired old fake phrase.

[maxiestern11]

Maxie, as far as rats/informants are concerned, I think it's actually a good thing there is no honor among thieves. Without informants, how is law enforcement supposed to harm organized crime? Professional criminals backstabbing each other is good for normal citizens imo.

"There is no honor among thieves" is tired old fake phrase.

Informants are of course hugely important to make cases. But with the use of informants, LE and the courts need to walk a careful chalk line when making deals with them!
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Inherently the nature of the beast is to lie, cheat and steal their way through life to begin with. For their freedom? Most would sell out their own mothers! So in using these bottom-feeders authorities have a heavy burden (a burden they often neglect and dismiss) to balance their usage with a proper “reward” so to speak. So as to keep things in check and not let the “wolf guard the henhouse”!
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When you let a guy who has killed 19 victims such as Gravano did (betraying and killing several close friends as well), or a Casso who in my opinion was a total degenerate and not even immoral but rather “Amoral”, or an uncover snitch such as Scarpa who is on a level of degeneracy all his own, and give them card Blanche?
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Then I think something is inherently very wrong with the system and thinking of our esteemed judiciary and “protectors”. To let these animals buy their freedom on the backs of others (some or whom, not all, but some of whom are much less of a threat or arch criminal than the informers themselves to begin with).
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The “ends DO NOT justify the means” in my book! And the book of a lot of people in the public sector (and even LE for that matter).

[Pogo The Clown]

I don't mean to butt myself into your conversation with Maxie, but how exactly is the mafia hurting normal citizens? To paraphrase Maxie from many of his posts...if you buy drugs, that's your choice (and not necessarily sold by mafia), if you take out a loan from a loanshark, it's your choice, etc.

Drugs do hurt "normal citizens". If a drug addict can't support themselves or their families that becomes a burden on society. Same for abused or neglected children of drug addicts. If a junkie has to resort to robbery to support their habit that hurts society. If an addict commits an act of violence that affects society., etc.


As for everything else the mob has stolen billions from the citizenry. From all the inflated prices in construction, garbage, trucking, garment center, airports, docks and all the various legitimate industries that were subject to labor racketeering over the decades. All the unions they have pilfered for the last century. The Gambinos alone have stolen hundreds of millions of dollars with their credit card and cramming scams. The mob has caused good knows how much financial harm through their stock scams, mortgage fraud, healthcare fraud, run of the mill extortion of legitimate businesses, etc.


Pogo

[dack2001]

The mafia has touched and hurt so many lives and cost billions of legitimate dollars, it would probably be impossible to get a full picture on the scope of the damage. Just spend a day reading Jonathan Kwitney's classic book from the 80's about how the mafia causes unnatural and inflated prices. It's organized crime for crying out loud, it doesn't take Maxie's student graduating whatever school he is in to see that. It's also true that members and associates get treated in a manner that is unfair because of dozens and dozens of unproven crimes of themselves and their associates. That's not how our system is supposed to work. Both points are true but if you think the mafia only touches "criminals", you are so clearly wrong.

[maxiestern11]

The mafia has touched and hurt so many lives and cost billions of legitimate dollars, it would probably be impossible to get a full picture on the scope of the damage. Just spend a day reading Jonathan Kwitney's classic book from the 80's about how the mafia causes unnatural and inflated prices. It's organized crime for crying out loud, it doesn't take Maxie's student graduating whatever school he is in to see that. It's also true that members and associates get treated in a manner that is unfair because of dozens and dozens of unproven crimes of themselves and their associates. That's not how our system is supposed to work. Both points are true but if you think the mafia only touches "criminals", you are so clearly wrong.

Dack, you are correct of course in your assessment! Depending upon the racket involved, it may or may not affect the public in a minimal way or a very dramatic way. Obviously heroin is a vicious racket - affecting the very fabric of society. Bookmaking - innocuous in my opinion (and obviously that of the government also otherwise they wouldn’t have legalized it!) Shylocking - although the vig may be high, so is the risk for the shylock with the borrower typically being the worst if the worst credit wise! More risk more gain no? And guys know the terms BEFORE they grab that cash! ..... and from what I’ve seen investigating these “payday” loan companies m, with there annual aggregate rates that topple 1,000% interest (literally 4 times more than a 5% weekly vig which is tops and mostly unrealistic even for the mob) - they make loansharks look like Sunday school amateurs! ..... yet it’s legal in most states.
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Etc etc ..... the debate goes on!

[mafiastudent]

I don't mean to butt myself into your conversation with Maxie, but how exactly is the mafia hurting normal citizens? To paraphrase Maxie from many of his posts...if you buy drugs, that's your choice (and not necessarily sold by mafia), if you take out a loan from a loanshark, it's your choice, etc.

Drugs do hurt "normal citizens". If a drug addict can't support themselves or their families that becomes a burden on society. Same for abused or neglected children of drug addicts. If a junkie has to resort to robbery to support their habit that hurts society. If an addict commits an act of violence that affects society., etc.


As for everything else the mob has stolen billions from the citizenry. From all the inflated prices in construction, garbage, trucking, garment center, airports, docks and all the various legitimate industries that were subject to labor racketeering over the decades. All the unions they have pilfered for the last century. The Gambinos alone have stolen hundreds of millions of dollars with their credit card and cramming scams. The mob has caused good knows how much financial harm through their stock scams, mortgage fraud, healthcare fraud, run of the mill extortion of legitimate businesses, etc.


Pogo

Pogo,

I would love to argue this point, but alas, I have nothing to base my argument on without research (including reading the suggested book by Dack).
And I'm not saying that what you posted is wrong. Obviously, it's not. However, if a finger is to be pointed at the mafia there are other organizations not classified as "organized crime" that also deserve recognition for pilfering from the citizenry. The mafia isn't the end of be all responsible for inflated prices in any of those industries you mentioned.

And the mafia also isn't responsible for making a drug addict a drug addict with all the trickle-down effects you mentioned. It's akin to saying Jeffrey Dahmer's parents or any serial killer's parents are responsible for them murdering innocent people. I'm not saying drug addiction doesn't affect society the way you stated. However, to blame it on the mafia isn't fair. They might not even be the ones at the top of the drug trade anyway. And to put it in a mafia land perspective, blaming drug addiction on the mafia is like Anthony Comello's lawyer blaming the internet for him killing Cali. Or people blaming his parents for Cali's murder.

In fact, to take a point further (and maybe I'm going off the deep end here) but why not blame drug addiction on doctors who prescribe pain medication for people suffering from chronic pain? Or blame doctors for making drug addicts out of mothers who gave birth by cesarean section because they got a taste of Vicodin after giving birth and wanted to keep that good feeling going? Or move it to "legal" drugs like caffeine or nicotine, alcohol, and on and on. The cycle of the blame can be endless for any type of "drug" or anything for that matter.

When does it end? And why should the mafia continue to get the short end of the stick with unfair and biased trials?

[gohnjotti]

Maxie makes very good points. The RICO Act is a good tool to convict high-level mob bosses, but I think prosecutors aren’t acting fairly when low-level guys charged with nonviolent offenses are given hefty sentences because of racketeering conspiracy alone.
Look at Dino Saracino. From a legal standpoint, he should not be behind bars. He was sentenced to 50 years for asking a criminal member of his crew, David Gordon, to plead the fifth amendment. That constituted witness tampering and, because he did it 5 different times as a racketeering conspiracy predicate, he was allowed a maximum sentence of 100 years.
That sort of behaviour is what I’m talking about when I say the RICO Act is being used haphazardly. The jury who acquitted Saracino of murder did not want a judge to turn around and use the racketeering sentencing guidelines to hand him a 50 year sentence. The judge himself even said that the reason for the long sentence was, in part, because he believed Saracino was guilty of the murders. That’s an abuse of the justice system, in my opinion, and the only reason I believe it’s been able to slide is because of the word “Mafia.”

[SonnyBlackstein]

The reason we should be concerned about misapplication or abuse of the law to the mafia is this: take out the words ‘to the mafia’.

[maxiestern11]

Maxie makes very good points. The RICO Act is a good tool to convict high-level mob bosses, but I think prosecutors aren’t acting fairly when low-level guys charged with nonviolent offenses are given hefty sentences because of racketeering conspiracy alone.
Look at Dino Saracino. From a legal standpoint, he should not be behind bars. He was sentenced to 50 years for asking a criminal member of his crew, David Gordon, to plead the fifth amendment. That constituted witness tampering and, because he did it 5 different times as a racketeering conspiracy predicate, he was allowed a maximum sentence of 100 years.
That sort of behaviour is what I’m talking about when I say the RICO Act is being used haphazardly. The jury who acquitted Saracino of murder did not want a judge to turn around and use the racketeering sentencing guidelines to hand him a 50 year sentence. The judge himself even said that the reason for the long sentence was, in part, because he believed Saracino was guilty of the murders. That’s an abuse of the justice system, in my opinion, and the only reason I believe it’s been able to slide is because of the word “Mafia.”

[Wiseguy]

And one more thing while we’re at it! With these accusations of Wiseguy, Pogo and a few others.
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What’s this bullshit all the time that you right away accuse guys of being the mysterious Mobfan, Vicari, etc etc (I cant even remember the other names), as soon as you are feeling the heat or can’t answer the question properly and want to deflect attention from the conversation? Right away you start throwing out bullshit at Bert, myself and others about these “bogeymen”! Lol
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It’s getting very old fella’s!
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How bout you get a new Schtick already!

Feeling the heat? Are you serious? This isn't exactly the first time this issue has come up. We routinely have people on the forum lament how some mobster is being treated unfairly or inhumanely. How the government are the real bad guys or, at least, try to draw some ridiculous moral parallel between the two. They don't bat an eye at the life of crime the mafioso may be guilty of. Or all the lies his slimy defense attorney uses to get his client off the hook. But any misstep by the feds, perceived or real, they're all over. Acting like they care about the Constitution or even know what it says. Well, only when it comes to the Italian guys. As Pogo said, the exact same treatment by the government of a Mexican cartel boss or black gang leader, and all your guys' fake outrage goes right out the window.

If you believe lifelong murderers and drug traffickers like John Gotti and Carmine Persico ever deserved to be released from prison, your moral compass is so broken there's nothing I can say to set you straight. And pointing to other criminals who have received relatively better treatment or lighter sentences is only an argument to make those penalties harsher too. Not lessen them for the mob guys.

And by the way, I don't know who you are (or were) but it does matter when people post under one handle, go away for a while, and then return under another. They're obviously trying to come back without any if the baggage they built up and present themselves as someone else. Of course, they almost always give themselves away sooner or later.

[maxiestern11]

And one more thing while we’re at it! With these accusations of Wiseguy, Pogo and a few others.
-
What’s this bullshit all the time that you right away accuse guys of being the mysterious Mobfan, Vicari, etc etc (I cant even remember the other names), as soon as you are feeling the heat or can’t answer the question properly and want to deflect attention from the conversation? Right away you start throwing out bullshit at Bert, myself and others about these “bogeymen”! Lol
-
It’s getting very old fella’s!
-
How bout you get a new Schtick already!

Feeling the heat? Are you serious? This isn't exactly the first time this issue has come up. We routinely have people on the forum lament how some mobster is being treated unfairly or inhumanely. How the government are the real bad guys or, at least, try to draw some ridiculous moral parallel between the two. They don't bat an eye at the life of crime the mafioso may be guilty of. Or all the lies his slimy defense attorney uses to get his client off the hook. But any misstep by the feds, perceived or real, they're all over. Acting like they care about the Constitution or even know what it says. Well, only when it comes to the Italian guys. As Pogo said, the exact same treatment by the government of a Mexican cartel boss or black gang leader, and all your guys' fake outrage goes right out the window.

If you believe lifelong murderers and drug traffickers like John Gotti and Carmine Persico ever deserved to be released from prison, your moral compass is so broken there's nothing I can say to set you straight. And pointing to other criminals who have received relatively better treatment or lighter sentences is only an argument to make those penalties harsher too. Not lessen them for the mob guys.

And by the way, I don't know who you are (or were) but it does matter when people post under one handle, go away for a while, and then return under another. They're obviously trying to come back without any if the baggage they built up and present themselves as someone else. Of course, they almost always give themselves away sooner or later.

You sound like a regular Sherlock Holmes! ......break out your magnifying glass and have a look around the room while you puff on your tobacco pipe! ...... Watson!... oh Watson! Where are you?

[Wiseguy]

And one more thing while we’re at it! With these accusations of Wiseguy, Pogo and a few others.
-
What’s this bullshit all the time that you right away accuse guys of being the mysterious Mobfan, Vicari, etc etc (I cant even remember the other names), as soon as you are feeling the heat or can’t answer the question properly and want to deflect attention from the conversation? Right away you start throwing out bullshit at Bert, myself and others about these “bogeymen”! Lol
-
It’s getting very old fella’s!
-
How bout you get a new Schtick already!

Feeling the heat? Are you serious? This isn't exactly the first time this issue has come up. We routinely have people on the forum lament how some mobster is being treated unfairly or inhumanely. How the government are the real bad guys or, at least, try to draw some ridiculous moral parallel between the two. They don't bat an eye at the life of crime the mafioso may be guilty of. Or all the lies his slimy defense attorney uses to get his client off the hook. But any misstep by the feds, perceived or real, they're all over. Acting like they care about the Constitution or even know what it says. Well, only when it comes to the Italian guys. As Pogo said, the exact same treatment by the government of a Mexican cartel boss or black gang leader, and all your guys' fake outrage goes right out the window.

If you believe lifelong murderers and drug traffickers like John Gotti and Carmine Persico ever deserved to be released from prison, your moral compass is so broken there's nothing I can say to set you straight. And pointing to other criminals who have received relatively better treatment or lighter sentences is only an argument to make those penalties harsher too. Not lessen them for the mob guys.

And by the way, I don't know who you are (or were) but it does matter when people post under one handle, go away for a while, and then return under another. They're obviously trying to come back without any if the baggage they built up and present themselves as someone else. Of course, they almost always give themselves away sooner or later.

You sound like a regular Sherlock Holmes! ......break out your magnifying glass and have a look around the room while you puff on your tobacco pipe! ...... Watson!... oh Watson! Where are you?

Mm hmm. If I wasn't convinced this whole thing is about mob fandom more than anything, maybe I could take it more seriously. But, whether they admit it or not, many of these guys like mobsters more than you like exclamation points.

[maxiestern11]

And one more thing while we’re at it! With these accusations of Wiseguy, Pogo and a few others.
-
What’s this bullshit all the time that you right away accuse guys of being the mysterious Mobfan, Vicari, etc etc (I cant even remember the other names), as soon as you are feeling the heat or can’t answer the question properly and want to deflect attention from the conversation? Right away you start throwing out bullshit at Bert, myself and others about these “bogeymen”! Lol
-
It’s getting very old fella’s!
-
How bout you get a new Schtick already!

Feeling the heat? Are you serious? This isn't exactly the first time this issue has come up. We routinely have people on the forum lament how some mobster is being treated unfairly or inhumanely. How the government are the real bad guys or, at least, try to draw some ridiculous moral parallel between the two. They don't bat an eye at the life of crime the mafioso may be guilty of. Or all the lies his slimy defense attorney uses to get his client off the hook. But any misstep by the feds, perceived or real, they're all over. Acting like they care about the Constitution or even know what it says. Well, only when it comes to the Italian guys. As Pogo said, the exact same treatment by the government of a Mexican cartel boss or black gang leader, and all your guys' fake outrage goes right out the window.

If you believe lifelong murderers and drug traffickers like John Gotti and Carmine Persico ever deserved to be released from prison, your moral compass is so broken there's nothing I can say to set you straight. And pointing to other criminals who have received relatively better treatment or lighter sentences is only an argument to make those penalties harsher too. Not lessen them for the mob guys.

And by the way, I don't know who you are (or were) but it does matter when people post under one handle, go away for a while, and then return under another. They're obviously trying to come back without any if the baggage they built up and present themselves as someone else. Of course, they almost always give themselves away sooner or later.

You sound like a regular Sherlock Holmes! ......break out your magnifying glass and have a look around the room while you puff on your tobacco pipe! ...... Watson!... oh Watson! Where are you?

Mm hmm. If I wasn't convinced this whole thing is about mob fandom more than anything, maybe I could take it more seriously. But, whether they admit it or not, many of these guys like mobsters more than you like exclamation points.

You know what they say, freedom of choice! That’s what this country is supposed to be all about. Whether you or I agree with the others or one another, we all get to pick as we like so long as it doesn’t infringe on another’s rights or choice!