DiFronzo was lucky. Or...? (+ other Outfit sh*t)

[Frank]

Yes, but we keep finding other names that could be that made member CI, besides DiFronzo.

[Frank]

This is the indictment from 2010 that lists several confidential informants, including one going back to the mid-1980s:

"Confidential Informant One is an alleged upper echelon member of the 'Outfit' and has been providing information to the government for over 25 years" states the court filing.

Confidential Informant Two is "another upper echelon Outfit associate who had been providing information to the government since 1994."

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/wls/documents/mobmoles.pdf

https://abc7chicago.com/archive/7446674/

CI # 1 the way it's worded might not have been made 25 years ago. Just states he is a current member and has been giving info for 25 years.

[SolarSolano]

In the mid 90s when Joe "Wing" DiFronzo was indicted for an indoor marijuana farm, he supposedly left Chicago in a hurry - not to get away from the Feds, but to get away from Sam Carlisi who ordered his death for losing the money he had loaned DiFRonzo for the operation and screwing everything up. Joe apparently stayed in Florida until his older brother John could get him a pass. I've heard rumors John DiFronzo gave the Outfit to Carlisi at that point to save his brother

That story sounds strange? According to U.S. Attorney John Burley, in 1989 a guy named Coffey owed Joe DiFronzo juice money he couldn't pay. John DiFronzo ten "suggested" that Coffey start the Pot Growing Business. Joe Difronzo would most likely have borrowed money from his brother John DiFronzo who was his Boss and got involved in the situation. John DiFronzo had a lot of money in 1989. The investment was $90,000 plus some payment toward the guys mortgage.
Why would Joe DiFronzo borrow money from Sam Carlisi? Even if Carlisi got involved THROUGH John DiFronzo, John would have paid Carlisi back.
Do you have any documentation stating that Joe DiFronzo "borrowed" this money from Carlisi?

Where do you think Joe got his money to put on the street? Borrowed from Carlisi and Gus Alex, who were the two main guys at that point in the early 90s/late 80s.

[Villain]

Carlisi, DiFronzo and Marcello, all loaned money to members and associates who at the time were involved in all kinds of businesses, including narcotics, but it's hard to prove that Alex was directly involved in loan sharking or financing dope, although he still took his cut from Lenny Patrick's crew and also took payoffs from the First Ward which were provided by Marcy and Roti.

[Frank]

In the mid 90s when Joe "Wing" DiFronzo was indicted for an indoor marijuana farm, he supposedly left Chicago in a hurry - not to get away from the Feds, but to get away from Sam Carlisi who ordered his death for losing the money he had loaned DiFRonzo for the operation and screwing everything up. Joe apparently stayed in Florida until his older brother John could get him a pass. I've heard rumors John DiFronzo gave the Outfit to Carlisi at that point to save his brother

That story sounds strange? According to U.S. Attorney John Burley, in 1989 a guy named Coffey owed Joe DiFronzo juice money he couldn't pay. John DiFronzo ten "suggested" that Coffey start the Pot Growing Business. Joe Difronzo would most likely have borrowed money from his brother John DiFronzo who was his Boss and got involved in the situation. John DiFronzo had a lot of money in 1989. The investment was $90,000 plus some payment toward the guys mortgage.
Why would Joe DiFronzo borrow money from Sam Carlisi? Even if Carlisi got involved THROUGH John DiFronzo, John would have paid Carlisi back.
Do you have any documentation stating that Joe DiFronzo "borrowed" this money from Carlisi?

Where do you think Joe got his money to put on the street? Borrowed from Carlisi and Gus Alex, who were the two main guys at that point in the early 90s/late 80s.

I thought Carlisi and DiFronzo had cut off Alex from a share that was received by the top administration.

[SolarSolano]

The Outfit is very similar from the Five Families in that every crew is independent, but generally whatever crew the main boss comes from becomes the dominant one, where the members of that crew have the pick of the rackets and business opportunities being in the Outfit provides. What is unique is that the Outfit isn't some secret organization where its 'blood in blood out' - its a business and guys would walk away from the rackets and retire peacefully, while still staying semi-connected (investing in a juice loan or business deal through the Outfit - getting their kids cushy union jobs, etc.)

The Outfit's power shifted back and forth between Elmwood Park/Grand Avenue and Cicero/Taylor Street/Melrose Park frequently. The bosses generally want their crews running the show but there is substantial friction and I know for a fact that Aiuppa and Cerone hated each other - thus I'm sure their heirs Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other. I'm of the belief that Ferriola was a street boss in name only - DiFronzo (who was Accardo's guy and Cerone's heir) was really the power in the Outfit in the 1980s after Aiuppa was gone. DiFronzo gave that up to Carlisi in part to help his brother then went to prison a few years later, came back and lived in retirement. I think his boyhood pal Joe Lombardo did the same thing in the 1990s - he was retired.

Johnny Monteleone stepped in to take over when Carlisi went away (Monteleone was a Cicero native, but also worked closely with the Melrose Carlisi/Aiuppa crew and would have been a logical replacement). Today, I think all the power is in Cicero, which absorbed Grand Avenue and what was left of Elmwood Park. I think Rudy Fratto and Al Mitria and anyone else whose left in Elmwood now work for Cicero.

[SolarSolano]

This is the indictment from 2010 that lists several confidential informants, including one going back to the mid-1980s:

"Confidential Informant One is an alleged upper echelon member of the 'Outfit' and has been providing information to the government for over 25 years" states the court filing.

Confidential Informant Two is "another upper echelon Outfit associate who had been providing information to the government since 1994."

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/wls/documents/mobmoles.pdf

https://abc7chicago.com/archive/7446674/

CI # 1 the way it's worded might not have been made 25 years ago. Just states he is a current member and has been giving info for 25 years.

Is that the same informant who almost went into hiding after getting into a fight with Mike Magnafichi. His name is public - he is not Italian if I remember correctly.

[Frank]

The Outfit is very similar from the Five Families in that every crew is independent, but generally whatever crew the main boss comes from becomes the dominant one, where the members of that crew have the pick of the rackets and business opportunities being in the Outfit provides. What is unique is that the Outfit isn't some secret organization where its 'blood in blood out' - its a business and guys would walk away from the rackets and retire peacefully, while still staying semi-connected (investing in a juice loan or business deal through the Outfit - getting their kids cushy union jobs, etc.)

The Outfit's power shifted back and forth between Elmwood Park/Grand Avenue and Cicero/Taylor Street/Melrose Park frequently. The bosses generally want their crews running the show but there is substantial friction and I know for a fact that Aiuppa and Cerone hated each other - thus I'm sure their heirs Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other. I'm of the belief that Ferriola was a street boss in name only - DiFronzo (who was Accardo's guy and Cerone's heir) was really the power in the Outfit in the 1980s after Aiuppa was gone. DiFronzo gave that up to Carlisi in part to help his brother then went to prison a few years later, came back and lived in retirement. I think his boyhood pal Joe Lombardo did the same thing in the 1990s - he was retired.

Johnny Monteleone stepped in to take over when Carlisi went away (Monteleone was a Cicero native, but also worked closely with the Melrose Carlisi/Aiuppa crew and would have been a logical replacement). Today, I think all the power is in Cicero, which absorbed Grand Avenue and what was left of Elmwood Park. I think Rudy Fratto and Al Mitria and anyone else whose left in Elmwood now work for Cicero.

I had read that DiFronzo had stepped back at one time to raise his grandson. It's possible that it was multiple reasons if true. Ok than we have Frank Calabrese saying DiFronzo didn't want it, and Flapjacks is the boss. Was that tape after Monteleone died? Or was Monteleone Flapjacks?

[Confederate]

I know for a fact that Aiuppa and Cerone hated each other - thus I'm sure their heirs Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other. DiFronzo gave that up to Carlisi in part to help his brother then went to prison a few years later.

I don't disagree with everything you stated. However, if you're so sure that Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other because Auippa and Cerone hated each other, then WHY would Joe DiFronzo borrow money from Carlisi knowing that his brother supposedly hated him? That doesn't make any sense? It seems that Joe would have borrowed the money from his Brother John who was rich and also his immediate Boss.

Again, what evidence do you have that Joe DiFronzo borrowed money from Carlisi, a man you said his brother John "hated"? Also, what evidence do you have that Auippa & Cerone "hated" each other? Strong words.

[Snakes]

The Outfit is very similar from the Five Families in that every crew is independent, but generally whatever crew the main boss comes from becomes the dominant one, where the members of that crew have the pick of the rackets and business opportunities being in the Outfit provides. What is unique is that the Outfit isn't some secret organization where its 'blood in blood out' - its a business and guys would walk away from the rackets and retire peacefully, while still staying semi-connected (investing in a juice loan or business deal through the Outfit - getting their kids cushy union jobs, etc.)

The Outfit's power shifted back and forth between Elmwood Park/Grand Avenue and Cicero/Taylor Street/Melrose Park frequently. The bosses generally want their crews running the show but there is substantial friction and I know for a fact that Aiuppa and Cerone hated each other - thus I'm sure their heirs Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other. I'm of the belief that Ferriola was a street boss in name only - DiFronzo (who was Accardo's guy and Cerone's heir) was really the power in the Outfit in the 1980s after Aiuppa was gone. DiFronzo gave that up to Carlisi in part to help his brother then went to prison a few years later, came back and lived in retirement. I think his boyhood pal Joe Lombardo did the same thing in the 1990s - he was retired.

Johnny Monteleone stepped in to take over when Carlisi went away (Monteleone was a Cicero native, but also worked closely with the Melrose Carlisi/Aiuppa crew and would have been a logical replacement). Today, I think all the power is in Cicero, which absorbed Grand Avenue and what was left of Elmwood Park. I think Rudy Fratto and Al Mitria and anyone else whose left in Elmwood now work for Cicero.

I had read that DiFronzo had stepped back at one time to raise his grandson. It's possible that it was multiple reasons if true. Ok than we have Frank Calabrese saying DiFronzo didn't want it, and Flapjacks is the boss. Was that tape after Monteleone died? Or was Monteleone Flapjacks?

Andriacchi was "Flapjacks" because he owned a pancake restaurant. Monteleone was still alive when Jr. made the recordings.

[SolarSolano]

I know for a fact that Aiuppa and Cerone hated each other - thus I'm sure their heirs Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other. DiFronzo gave that up to Carlisi in part to help his brother then went to prison a few years later.

I don't disagree with everything you stated. However, if you're so sure that Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other because Auippa and Cerone hated each other, then WHY would Joe DiFronzo borrow money from Carlisi knowing that his brother supposedly hated him? That doesn't make any sense? It seems that Joe would have borrowed the money from his Brother John who was rich and also his immediate Boss.

Again, what evidence do you have that Joe DiFronzo borrowed money from Carlisi, a man you said his brother John "hated"? Also, what evidence do you have that Auippa & Cerone "hated" each other? Strong words.

In the Outfit, the juice crews always loaned the 'nut' (Outfit profits) and those profits always came from the top. These guys were fairly limited when they needed to borrow a few million to loan out - they didn't go to a bank and most of these gangsters didn't have millions sitting around waiting to be used for juice. Accardo was always wealthy - in the 1960s and 1970s - he became EXTREMELY wealthy because of the juice rackets, where he was probably making some serious multiples on his investment.

Here is what I know of Black Sam - he was raised in Buffalo's little italy and came to Chicago as a kid with his brother Al and their mother after the father died to live in Melrose Park. His brother Roy "The Clam Man" was one of Maggadino's guys in Buffalo - while Al quickly became a powerhouse in Cicero with his partner Leo Filipelli. Al and Sam stayed tight with Roy and knew a lot of East Coast guys. Al was one of Aiuppa's top guys and really ran the town of Cicero for him. They clashed often with Buccieri's crew. Sam stepped in when Al passed away in his 60s. Some guys called Sam "wings" for flying to the east coast, where he was the Outfit's liaison - but most called him Black Sam because he was tan.

[SolarSolano]

I think Calabrese also called Andriacchi "Joey West" (for living in River Forest) while his cousin Lombardo was "Joey East" (for living in the grand avenue neighborhood in chicago).

[Snakes]

I know for a fact that Aiuppa and Cerone hated each other - thus I'm sure their heirs Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other. DiFronzo gave that up to Carlisi in part to help his brother then went to prison a few years later.

I don't disagree with everything you stated. However, if you're so sure that Carlisi and DiFronzo hated each other because Auippa and Cerone hated each other, then WHY would Joe DiFronzo borrow money from Carlisi knowing that his brother supposedly hated him? That doesn't make any sense? It seems that Joe would have borrowed the money from his Brother John who was rich and also his immediate Boss.

Again, what evidence do you have that Joe DiFronzo borrowed money from Carlisi, a man you said his brother John "hated"? Also, what evidence do you have that Auippa & Cerone "hated" each other? Strong words.

In the Outfit, the juice crews always loaned the 'nut' (Outfit profits) and those profits always came from the top. These guys were fairly limited when they needed to borrow a few million to loan out - they didn't go to a bank and most of these gangsters didn't have millions sitting around waiting to be used for juice. Accardo was always wealthy - in the 1960s and 1970s - he became EXTREMELY wealthy because of the juice rackets, where he was probably making some serious multiples on his investment.

Here is what I know of Black Sam - he was raised in Buffalo's little italy and came to Chicago as a kid with his brother Al and their mother after the father died to live in Melrose Park. His brother Roy "The Clam Man" was one of Maggadino's guys in Buffalo - while Al quickly became a powerhouse in Cicero with his partner Leo Filipelli. Al and Sam stayed tight with Roy and knew a lot of East Coast guys. Al was one of Aiuppa's top guys and really ran the town of Cicero for him. They clashed often with Buccieri's crew. Sam stepped in when Al passed away in his 60s. Some guys called Sam "wings" for flying to the east coast, where he was the Outfit's liaison - but most called him Black Sam because he was tan.

You may be thinking of Carmen Carlisi, not Al. Al lived into the 80s, if I'm not mistaken. Carmen died in '72 or '73.

[SolarSolano]

Maybe I am mistaking Al with one of the cousins? Al and Frank Tournabene were cousins of the Carlisi's - the point was that Sam had an older brother who really made Cicero into the gambling town it became - and Sam benefited well from that.

[Snakes]

Maybe I am mistaking Al with one of the cousins? Al and Frank Tournabene were cousins of the Carlisi's - the point was that Sam had an older brother who really made Cicero into the gambling town it became - and Sam benefited well from that.

Yeah, that was Carmen. Sam had three brothers; Roy, Carmen, and Al. Al Tornabene was Carlisi's cousin but Frank wasn't Al's brother. As far as I know, Al and Frank Tornabene were unrelated. It can be quite confusing to keep track of.