Bounty on Merlino

[Frank]

The subject and both your opinions are interesting. The whole Philadelphia thing after Scarfo has caught my interest since it appears Amuso still possibly recognized Scarfo as boss of Philly still. And talk about LCN rules being broke, I'm not sure about Stanfa, but was there ever a Family vote for boss taken for Natale and then Merlino? Did the Commission as a whole still recognize Scarfo as boss.

[maxiestern11]

Good question Frank! I suspect no. Making Scarfo still Boss! But even as a former boss, that’s a very exulted position. Highly respected and recognized by all LCN! And not to trivialize Philadelphia, but in the scheme of things they’re the bastard step-child in relation to the NYC Five! And Commission members at that! ..... so Amuso would be revered by a Scarfo! He ain’t gonna go behind his back and fuck em around! IMO
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Another thing. Forget all about LCN. Let’s say Scarfo did offer $500,000. NOT to LCN guys, but “outsiders” like Dack suggested. Mexican Mafia, Colombians, Hell’s Angels Motorcycle club, etc......
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I don’t think he’s that delusional to have them actually do it and NOT pay the $500k! ...... they’d kill him and his kid! They typically don’t understand or give a fuck!
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And although I never met the man, everything I’ve ever read about Scarfo suggests he paid for NOTHING! Not even a cup of coffee!.... he wanted everything on the arm!
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Even he would know if he’d offer $500k to “serious” killers, whoever they might be that he’d have to pay! And he would never want to! I just don’t believe it!
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So in closing that in itself is another very sound point for my argument and position!
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These complex conspiracy theorists who just love “the second shooter from the grassy knoll theory”, for me?, are happily deluding themselves!
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Again, EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion. I certainly have mine! Dack has his and is entitled to it!... you have yours, etc!
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at the end of the day, ITS ALL GOOD!

[Lupara]

Maxie, you keep talking in theories and plausibility like some physics professor in his first year teaching. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday, every cosa nostra rule has been broken a million times. The rules are made to be broken. Nicky hit Vince Falcone without Bruno's ok, for crying out loud. In this situation are also conflating a bunch of events that are all interrelated and impacted each other on a linear timeline, while ignoring their significance.

Here's the thing how it went down in my opinion. Scarfo is away doing life. Gets stripped of his rank and Stanfa gets the nod. Stanfa gets indicted around the time Nicky Jr. is getting released from his bid. Nicky Jr. isn't made into the Lukes at this time, he's still under the Philly flag. He opens that spot in Ventnor and Joey takes the reins officially with Ralph the titular head. We know from Phil that Nicky Scarfo is sending letters and calling Nicky Jr. to kill Joey Merlino, just like he was before Nicky Jr. went away in the Fresolone thing. Joey is sending Johnny Chang down to Ventnor to shake Nicky Jr. down to pay tribute. Nicky Sr., who only followed the rules when it suited him (like most guys), is doing everything he can to get Joey and Ralph killed, including prison contracts etc (which isn't as crazy as you seem to think). This contract on the sneak gets intercepted and reported by LE to Joey and his guys.

Once word is out Nicky Sr. and Jr. both know its a matter of time before Jr. gets hit and Philly would be within its rights to hit him and Joey has the hitters to get it done. This is when Nicky Sr. goes to Vic, who has no authority to intervene in a philly dispute (under the rules!), and Vic agrees to take Nicky Jr. and make him in the Luchese to insulate him. Vic is a boss of another family and Nicky is a soldier (remember everyone in CN are equal, a boss is just first among equals) So many rules, all getting broken, left and right. Nicky Jr. gets made without Philly ok, Joey gets indicted, Joe Ligambi takes the Philly beef against the Lucheses to the Gambinos after things settle (which is another fact we know) and at some point Nicky Jr. gets broke by the Lukes, his crew is assigned to Philly and he heads to Texas and rips off the bank and gets 30 years.

My point was always that its quite plausible that Nicky sr. sent that contract out. You responded with rules that CN isn't supposed to hire hitters outside the family with contracts etc. I think history is on my side here, don't fall in love with "rules" and thinking history plays out like a newspaper article and a court trial. Parts of the truth are within each of these things but getting to actual truth is like a puzzle that has to be put together with all the available facts.

I think you got your timeline a little mixed up. At the time Nicky, Jr. was supposedly hit by Joey, Stanfa wasn't yet in the picture as boss. This happened in the late 80s when Joey was still a nobody and possibly even before he met and bonded with Natale. I think Joey hit Nicky, Jr. because he wanted to make a name for himself. He was far from taking the reigns at the time, which happened several years later.

As far as rules being broken, if it ever was a rule in the first place that the mob doesn't hire outsiders, it has been broken many times over in Canada, where it is actually the norm to farm out hits to gang members and such.

[maxiestern11]

Well in Canada, I think they are very much an entity to themselves. A lot of unconventional things have gone on there for decades already!
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In the USA, and specifically the northeast: NY, NJ, Philly, etc.... not so much!
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I will say this much!.... NOWADAYS seems like anything is game and mostly anything goes! LCN is ALL fucked up!
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But we are talking about many years ago, and with several bosses involved and potentially others solid guys. I just doubt it, that’s all!! Lol

[dack2001]

Mike Chang and Joey were in control of the streets a lot sooner than you are giving them credit. Joey wasn't making a name for himself when he supposedly shot Nicky Jr. Far from it. He and Mike Chang and others(Borgesi, Stevie Mazzone, Lance, Marty Angelina, Dutchie Avicoli) were the only crew left in Philly with any muscle and basically took over the South Philly shakes after the rest of the guys got put away without bail in April, 1987. As guys kept paying Joey and Mike Chang, Jr. and Horsehead gave Marty a famous baseball bat beating in broad daylight over the shake downs not going to Jr. on behalf of his father. You ought to take a look at Horsehead's account of this time period. He was essentially straddling the fence, staying loyal to Jr. to help with the few guys in South Philly still paying Sr. Then Joey blasted Nicky Jr. into oblivion and sent him to North Jersey. Had nothing to do with making a name for himself or Mike Chang, it was the shakes and sending Sr. a message that he was done in Philly. Stanfa came around with Gambino blessings from the commission and put together the remnants of other crews with Cousin Anthony in 1991 and got official recognition to take over just Mike Chang and Joey weren't having it.

[Lupara]

Mike Chang and Joey were in control of the streets a lot sooner than you are giving them credit. Joey wasn't making a name for himself when he supposedly shot Nicky Jr. Far from it. He and Mike Chang and others(Borgesi, Stevie Mazzone, Lance, Marty Angelina, Dutchie Avicoli) were the only crew left in Philly with any muscle and basically took over the South Philly shakes after the rest of the guys got put away without bail in April, 1987. As guys kept paying Joey and Mike Chang, Jr. and Horsehead gave Marty a famous baseball bat beating in broad daylight over the shake downs not going to Jr. on behalf of his father. You ought to take a look at Horsehead's account of this time period. He was essentially straddling the fence, staying loyal to Jr. to help with the few guys in South Philly still paying Sr. Then Joey blasted Nicky Jr. into oblivion and sent him to North Jersey. Had nothing to do with making a name for himself or Mike Chang, it was the shakes and sending Sr. a message that he was done in Philly. Stanfa came around with Gambino blessings from the commission and put together the remnants of other crews with Cousin Anthony in 1991 and got official recognition to take over just Mike Chang and Joey weren't having it.

I'm certainly not saying you don't know your stuff, it seems you do so thanks for elaborating on it. I was just pointing out that asfaik Stanfa wasn't recognised as boss at the time Jr. was hit and Joey and Natale were still half a decade away from actually taking the reigns. But for the rest, I enjoy reading about this. Philly's internal matters are one of the most fascinating subjects in mob history so feel free to share more insight.

[maxiestern11]

Question for you Dack. Who do you personally think would, did or thought about taking the “contract”!
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what individual or group do you think Nicky was angling for, or hoping to have in mind to accomplish this?

Colombians? bikers? .... or a lone wolf ?

[dack2001]

Nick had a group of mexicans he used as protection when he did his bid down in Texas. Serious guys. He brought these guys up to philly after he got out and introduced them to some of the guys downtown. Phil Leonetti reported they capable and loyal to nick. My guess is nick put word through the prison system with this group if they made the hit they would get 500K. Jr. could have gotten them the money, imo. Law enforcement picked up the contract through a snitch or the prison system and called it a 500k bounty and told Joey and Ralph as they are required. I doubt it was ever an open contract for anyone to fulfill but I do believe that nick probably circulated it to more than one group if he had contacts or a prison connection, though he didn't seem to have heavy connections with the Irish or biker gangs but prison makes strange bedfellows.

Another thing, its not that uncommon for someone in the can to reach out to someone else outside to try to assault someone or collect a debt, even kill someone. You ought to listen to prison and detention phone calls sometime, whether OC or just your garden variety dealer. For every case that gets tried for someone arranging a prison assault or murder, historically in OC there have been more than a few, there are probably five that aren't tried because they are difficult to prove (guys aren't serious and are ranting or are talking in code) and a lot of times the guys who are reaching out are already looking at heavy time so the prosecutors don't file the case and just use it to hammer them at sentencing. Most of the time the guy on the other end is saying "uh-huh" while the guy on the phone rants and rants about shit they can't control because they are in jail and when the phone hangs up the guy on the other goes on about his day because he's just keeping the guy in jail happy best he can.

[maxiestern11]

Well I will say this, if he did actually offer these “Mexican” guys this proposition, especially if they were capable guys as we know some of these west coast latino’s are (so called Mexican Mafia), He’d HAVE to pay! Like it or not! Because they’re not just a few jerk-offs out of the blue. Boss or no Boss he’d end up with a serious problem I’m sure. Especially for that kind of cash! Lol
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If he was desperate, and had no one left to do his bidding, and thought it would allow Nicky Jr to grab hold of the Philly reins where he’d make the 500 back, who knows! Stranger things have happened!
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One more thing I wanna mention is that these “so-called” contracts that LE claims they found out about through a snitch or wire or CI, many times (in fact very often), the threat is actually “created” by LE themselves!
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And it’s done for a variety of reasons:
~To throw a guy in segregation under the guise of “protecting him”, just to break his balls, torture him!

~ to try and scare him, shake him up to cooperate with LE

~ throw off everyone and create “animosity” between guys on the street

~ etc etc
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And once the “lie” goes around enough through institutions, the street, guys talking, newspapers and “official” LE documents printed, etc..... it becomes gospel! (But in the meantime it was all bullshit to start with!)
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So that’s another reason why I’m always skeptical of those type of things! Especially this type of far flung accusation! $500k “contract” you know!
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I just wrote a huge story on Sonny Franzese. If you remember they, (LE) claimed the mob and Sonny himself had put out a contract on his own sons Michael originally and John Jr secondly at different intervals over the years! And that Carmine Persico himself had put out a contract on Michael personally!

IT WAS ALL BULLSHIT! Understand! Yet it was talked about for years like it was gospel and actually gained momentum from all the fucking hype!

So I typically take these type statements with a grain of salt!
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So again, I’m NOT saying your full of BS, only that a good dose of skepticism is always healthy with these things!

[Confederate]

Nick had a group of mexicans he used as protection when he did his bid down in Texas. Serious guys. He brought these guys up to philly after he got out and introduced them to some of the guys downtown. Phil Leonetti reported they capable and loyal to nick. My guess is nick put word through the prison system with this group if they made the hit they would get 500K. Jr. could have gotten them the money, imo. Law enforcement picked up the contract through a snitch or the prison system and called it a 500k bounty and told Joey and Ralph as they are required. I doubt it was ever an open contract for anyone to fulfill but I do believe that nick probably circulated it to more than one group if he had contacts or a prison connection, though he didn't seem to have heavy connections with the Irish or biker gangs but prison makes strange bedfellows.

Another thing, its not that uncommon for someone in the can to reach out to someone else outside to try to assault someone or collect a debt, even kill someone. You ought to listen to prison and detention phone calls sometime, whether OC or just your garden variety dealer. For every case that gets tried for someone arranging a prison assault or murder, historically in OC there have been more than a few, there are probably five that aren't tried because they are difficult to prove (guys aren't serious and are ranting or are talking in code) and a lot of times the guys who are reaching out are already looking at heavy time so the prosecutors don't file the case and just use it to hammer them at sentencing. Most of the time the guy on the other end is saying "uh-huh" while the guy on the phone rants and rants about shit they can't control because they are in jail and when the phone hangs up the guy on the other goes on about his day because he's just keeping the guy in jail happy best he can.

No Mexicans ever even tried to kill Merlino. Any of those so called "Outsiders" would have tried to kill their own mother for $500,000.

[dack2001]

Yep, I agree, not uncommon for law enforcement to talk about a contract, say its on Pistone or Mike Franzese....that probably doesn't exist and never existed. Makes good headlines. In some situations the truth is much more complex. In the situation with Sr. and Jr. and Joey Merlino, I think Sr. did everything in his power to take back the reins from Joey, probably right up until he died.

[Mikeymike12]

There was a 500 k bounty on Joey Merlino’s head from Scarfo, I don’t get how he was able to avoid that. Scarfo was close with powerful Genovese guys and then was close to the boss of the Lucchese. Plus anyone else from under the sun would be able to do it and collect from the bikers to any gang member period from any walks . Then he was locked up for 12 plus years and not one attempt by anyone trying to get that 500 k . It’s actually shocking .
[/quot p

That's because Scarfo had no more juice after he went down for good. People aren't gonna do favors like murder for someone if that person is never getting out of jail and is of no purpose to them like Scarfo was. Plus Scarfo probably could even pay the $500k if some nut ball actually would do it.

Yeah very true but at the same time Merlino seeemed to be unliked outside of his circle.

[Mikeymike12]

What about Scarfo’s son, you don’t think he would of been glad to throw some money around for that especially during that during that time ?

[Rocco]

What about Scarfo’s son, you don’t think he would of been glad to throw some money around for that especially during that during that time ?

I don't think he had the money to pay it out. Plus he was pushed out of Philly and living in NJ under protection of the Lucchese family. And to make things worse for Scarfo Jr. Joe Perna became close to Merlino. Once Scarfo Jr was bumped down to Soldier it was over for him. That's why he tried moving to FL after he got bumped down.

[Fughedaboutit]

What about Scarfo’s son, you don’t think he would of been glad to throw some money around for that especially during that during that time ?

I don't think he had the money to pay it out. Plus he was pushed out of Philly and living in NJ under protection of the Lucchese family. And to make things worse for Scarfo Jr. Joe Perna became close to Merlino. Once Scarfo Jr was bumped down to Soldier it was over for him. That's why he tried moving to FL after he got bumped down.

Scarfo Jr an earner, I wouldn't think he would have had a problem coming up with 500k imo