Gangland:5/28/15

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Wiseguy
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Wiseguy »

SonnyBlackstein wrote:Sure. And I'd agree with you 90% of the time. But when the FBI have motive to 'shake the tree' and the strength of logical arguments against, reasonable contention is quite fair.
It's the blanket rejection which I'm arguing against.


It seems to be a trend among certain posters that, whenever the FBI says something they don't like or disagree with, the FBI either has it just plain wrong or is intentionally giving out false information or "shaking the tree."
And technically, excluding those in the Lucchese admin, we're ALL speculating.
Well, the difference is you seem to have more confidence in internet speculation than you do the FBI, Capeci, and their sources. To me, that's just ludicrous.
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by DonnieB »

Pete wrote:
Five Felonies wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:While there may have been times when a guy's position in a family was "in name only," there isn't much to suggest - other than individual speculation - that applies to Amuso. In fact, examples have already been given (mainly by Pogo, also by Capeci himself) that show Amuso still does have major clout and is not just a figurehead.
i think that in a case like this the speculation has more than enough common sense based logic to give it credibility. the imprisoned boss's power base comes from a faction of the family that has very little serious clout these days. crea has the backing of the cream of the mob crop due to his many business relationships. the guy makes vast sums of money, which right there says it all. i think anyone who's even casually looked into the criminal underworld knows that at the end of the day, money is all that matters. i don't buy the idea that a guy gets to call the shots from prison with such little backing on the street just because guys are supposed to respect the rules. east bronx should weigh in and clear the air once and for all, get in here dammit! :lol:
There's a guy been in prison longer than amuso who still runs a family from prison, carmine persico. The rules say amuso is the boss till he steps down or dies and since neither has happened I would say he's still the boss. Is crea on deck? Sure but he's not gonna challenge the boss its a losing proposition amuso being boss takes heat off him
Little difference in the Persicos, they got a ton of blood relatives on the street looking out for Carmines interest..I don't think Amuse is in the same situation.
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Rocco »

Wiseguy wrote:
Pogo The Clown wrote:
johnny_scootch wrote:Crea is and has been the boss or acting boss if you still believe amuso is official boss. Matty is steves right hand man and his underboss / street boss to insulate steve.
in this scenario underboss = street boss. There has been no change in the lucchese hierarchy for quite some time now.

I don't know how you can be so sure since you recently wen't 0-4 with your DeCavalcante info.


The only official info we have received lately about the Lucchese leadership is that Amuso is Official Boss, Madonna was Amuso's Street Boss and now that Madonna is UnderBoss. Beyond that is pure speculation. Now Crea can very well be the Acting Boss with Madonna as UnderBoss. It can also be Madonna serving both roles or Madonna could have been the Acting Boss with Crea as UnderBoss. We just don't know until further info becomes available.


Pogo
Pogo summed it up perfectly. If Capeci was convinced enough to publically reverse himself and confirm Amuso is still the boss, that's good enough for me and should be good enough for everyone else. In the nearly 9 years I've been on these forums the posters who either claim to have inside info or simply rely on their own speculation have been wrong at least 90% of the time. And a good chunk of the stuff they happened to get right was just blind luck. You throw enough darts and one will hit the bullseye eventually. Why people can't trust those who know more than anyone outside the mob - Capeci, the FBI, etc., including waiting for credible info to come forth, rather than rush into the guessing game or buy what the latest forum BS artist is selling, I'll never understand.
Capeci is hardly a reliable source these days. His goto guy has been Stevie boy/Pic as of recently lol. I would say Capeci had inside guys ten yrs ago to get info from. But those days are long gone. Just the fact that he wrote Crea was boss and even added a detailed story how Crea sent word to Amuso in prison to step down etc. Then does a complete reversal because he recently "heard" a different story that Amuso is still boss..lol?? Fact is we don't know and we don't have solid info on Luchese's boss all we have us speculation that is up for discussion which is exactly what this is. Known one is claiming to have an inside source here... But let's face it Crea fits in there somewhere at the top. Could Matty be a front for Crea? Sure. Could Amuso be official boss in name only and Crea street boss with Matty under him? Sure. Its all up for discussion without having to rely on Capeci word especially since he already screwed up on this topic specifically. Does that mean everthing he writes is horseshit? Of course not. But it certainly leaves a question mark on the subject. If Capeci's word is good enough for you then congrats and see on another thread then....
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Rocco »

Pogo The Clown wrote:That goes back to what Wiseguy said earlier on speculating based on what makes sense to you. It doesn't make sense that Amuso could stll be Boss from prison so that means he must not be regardless of what the official info says. The same arguements were used in the past with Peter Gotti-Nick Corozzo, Jack D'Amico-Nick Corozzo, Tommy Gioeli-Brooklyn and John Riggi still the Boss discusssions. As we know all of them were proven false once further official info was released.


Also where did it ever come out that Scarfo Jr. was demoted because Amuso lost power? According to the Feds and wiretaps he was demoted because of his intrigues in Philly without the family's approval.


Pogo
Besides the taking over Philly in paper shit it was noted that the Perna's were out earning Scarfo hands down. And as it turns out Scarfo wasn't planning on taking over Philly but rather that he was recruiting Philly based criminals into his crew or attempting it ..we got this via the Nicky Skins wiretaps. If an all out philky take over was the plan surely that would have been brought up on the nicky skins tapes with the Gambinos etc. The taking over Philly thing was either a Pipedream or a stretch by the news papers clearly. Really all we have are little bits of info from gangland or minimal bits from the indictments. Everything else is speculation which makes for great discussion here where we get to hear others perspectives on the subject. Which is good. If we didn't have that here all we would have is a collection of newspaper articles and released indictments. But we can get that from a google search now can't we...?
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Pogo The Clown »

Rocco wrote:Then does a complete reversal because he recently "heard" a different story that Amuso is still boss..lol??

This is not correct. He specifically names two FBI agents and quotes several more. He also quotes a Lucchese Associate.

The closest thing to an official confirmation about Amuso's status came in April from the testimony by FBI agent Kenneth Terracciano at the racketeering trial of Luchese mobster Nicodemo Scarfo Jr. in Camden Federal Court. Terracciano, a Newark-based G-man, offered a simple declarative sentence on the matter: Amuso, he said, "is the boss of the Luchese family."

That claim has since been bolstered by several well-placed law enforcement and underworld sources, all of whom agree that Vic is still on top.

Not only is he still running the show, Amuso has no intention of giving up his post until he leaves the custody of the federal Bureau of Prisons, "one way or the other," said one law enforcement official. Sources say Amuso's mindset is the same as two contemporary mob bosses who died in prison, John Gotti and Vincent (Chin) Gigante, as well as Colombo boss Carmine (Junior) Persico, who's been incarcerated since 1984.

"By now," added the official, whom we'll identify as LEO#1 (Law Enforcement Official #1), "Vic knows he's not walking out; he's getting out in a body bag."

"There is no doubt, Vic is the man, end of story," agreed a second longtime mob buster who's been making cases against New York wiseguys for more than 20 years. "Vic has always been the (Luchese) boss," said LEO#2.

The longtime mob buster, as well as a third official, LEO#3, noted that when Amuso's wife Barbara died two years ago, it was "standing room only" at the one-day wake at the James Romanelli-Stephen Funeral Home on Rockaway Boulevard in Ozone Park on March 2, 2012. Mrs. Amuso, 69, was laid to rest the following day at St. Charles Cemetery in Farmingdale.

Barbara Amuso, who was a vocal supporter of her husband at trial, and who got into a shouting match with prosecutor Charles Rose outside the courtroom after her husband was sentenced to life for ordering nine mob murders and numerous other crimes, died on February 29, 2012 — six days after Gang Land's faux pas that her husband had stepped down.

"Amuso sent out word that he wanted everyone to show up, and the place was packed," said LEO#2. "The Lucheses showed up en masse," added LEO#3, who noted that a "sprinkling" of Gambinos from the Howard Beach, Queens area, where both Gotti and Amuso lived, also paid their respects.

Sources say that like virtually the entire crime family, Crea, the Bronx-based former boxer who owned construction companies and made millions of dollars though bid-rigging, price-fixing and kickback schemes involving construction industry union officials, and Madonna, attended the wake.

All of that jibes with what one underworld source (call him UW#1) told us: "Vic is still in the chair, still running the show," he said. "They (Luchese mobsters) don't like the fact that he's still calling the shots, but he's not giving it up. He's the boss," said the mob associate, a longtime cohort of the Luchese and Bonanno crime families.

It all makes sense to former FBI supervisor George Gabriel, who spearheaded the investigation that ended with John Gotti being sentenced to life in prison.

Gabriel, who was on the FBI team that scooped up turncoat acting Luchese boss Alfonso (Little Al) D'Arco two months after Amuso was arrested, told Gang Land he is not surprised that Amuso is holding on to his official title. D'Arco later was the key witness against his old mob boss at trial.

"Amuso and John Gotti are both cut from the same cloth, or similar cloth," said Gabriel.

"They both have the kind of ego that wouldn't let them walk away from being the boss of the family even though the rules of Cosa Nostra dictate that they should step down when they get life incarceration, or even a very long sentence – for the good of the crime family," said Gabriel.

"And Vic knows, like John knew, that if you give it up, not only are you out of sight, you're out of mind," said Gabriel. "The only way to insure that their own family is taken care of is to hold onto the reins of the crime family, and maintain the access to the crime family's money."
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Rocco »

All that still doesn't make the fact disappear that he previously stated that Crea was official boss along with a colorful story that Crea sent word to Amuso in jail to step down or Crea is taken it etc. And there is no way Amuso can call the shots..sure his requests from jail can be met out of respect. But just can't run a crime family while doing life in prison. You need a boss on the street for that. Call it a street boss or acting boss. Whatever you want to call it. Someone in the street has to do it. There is no way around that. Amuso can not run a crime family from prison for the last 20yrs. So with that said...the discussion returns to who is street boss/acting boss and where Crea fits in. Matty is set to begin a 3yr prison term later this yr and still has two remaining indictments hanging over him. So more than likely Matty is out of the picture for the foreseeable future. Who is the guy on the street running the crime family....?

On a side note pogo that testimony from the FBI agent was meant to directly tie Scarfo Jr to the "official boss" of the luchese family in attempt to keep the lcn eliment of the indictment. Remember there was an attempt by the defense to have the lcn eliment removed. Keep in mind why that agent was on the stand and what his purpose was during the testimony. There is a reason and purpose for everything in a court room.
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Pogo The Clown »

4 FBI agents (who have access to several Lucchese informants and 60 years of in house intelligence on the Luccheses tht we don't have) and a Lucchese Associate Vs. Speculation on a mob forum. This is bascially what it all comes down to and what one thinks carries more weight.


You also keep mentioning that Capeci was wrong in the past but how many times have you been wrong? If I recall you were wrong on John Riggi still being the Boss and as well as Peter Gotti being the Boss and Jack D'Amico being Acting Boss over Nick Corozzo.


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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Rocco »

Pogo The Clown wrote:4 FBI agents (who have access to several Lucchese informants and 60 years of in house intelligence on the Luccheses tht we don't have) and a Lucchese Associate Vs. Speculation on a mob forum. This is bascially what it all comes down to and what one thinks carries more weight.


You also keep mentioning that Capeci was wrong in the past but how many times have you been wrong? If I recall you were wrong on John Riggi still being the Boss and as well as Peter Gotti being the Boss and Jack D'Amico being Acting Boss over Nick Corozzo.


Pogo
Its an open discussion and it was my personal opinion so sure i could be wrong I never claimed to be a member of lcn or an FBI agent......at least I had an opinion..you didn't even have one..where is the fun in that on and open forum for discussions on lcn current affairs?... If we took your approach there would be nothing but cut and pastes of Capeci articles and indictments and really no discussion or or independent thoughts or opinions. So we have Capeci's complete reversal stating Amuso is still official boss. That really doesn't tell us who is running the show because we all know someone has to be boss on the street. So its back to the old argument official boss vs street boss. Who is it? With no FBI release or newspaper article from Capeci its just something you and wise guy stay away from. You can revert to a recent article saying that Matty is street boss or now underboss...but as I stated and the article does as well. Matty is going away for three yrs and two more indictments still yet to go to trial. Matty is out of the picture soon. So what's " your opinion" on that? Who's is gonna be street boss with Matty gone? Notice how Capeci's article doesn't place a position on Crea? Are you able to discuss the unknown without a recent newspaper article from capeci or indictment? It's OK I won't throw it back in your face later if it turns out not to be true!! . Memorizing indictments and Capeci articles from the past come in handy when discussing the unknown. It can be used to support your personal opinion. What is your personal opinion? If you believe that Amuso still has total control over the family who is going to run the show for him be his street boss? Matty is out of the picture so who us the man on the street in your opinion? Who's gonna run the family???? Discuss your opinion on the unknown...who's is the street boss/acting boss?? Pogo &wiseguy : crickets......... Lol
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Wiseguy »

When one looks at Capeci's track record overall, and doesn't just cherry pick, he has been very reliable. But even if you want to take him out of the debate, as Pogo pointed out, we have the FBI still saying Amuso is the boss. There's no getting around that and all the opinions and speculation on the forums amount to a steaming pile of dung compared to it. Some people just never learn.
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by 123JoeSchmo »

You guys are just going to have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Pete »

Pogo The Clown wrote:4 FBI agents (who have access to several Lucchese informants and 60 years of in house intelligence on the Luccheses tht we don't have) and a Lucchese Associate Vs. Speculation on a mob forum. This is bascially what it all comes down to and what one thinks carries more weight.


You also keep mentioning that Capeci was wrong in the past but how many times have you been wrong? If I recall you were wrong on John Riggi still being the Boss and as well as Peter Gotti being the Boss and Jack D'Amico being Acting Boss over Nick Corozzo.


Pogo
When are you saying corozzo was acting boss? That very short period in the late 90's before going to jail?

On the topic of capeci no one is perfect but if he is not an expert on the ny mob I don't know who is he def knows more than many others who claim to be in the know.
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Rocco »

Pete wrote:
Pogo The Clown wrote:4 FBI agents (who have access to several Lucchese informants and 60 years of in house intelligence on the Luccheses tht we don't have) and a Lucchese Associate Vs. Speculation on a mob forum. This is bascially what it all comes down to and what one thinks carries more weight.


You also keep mentioning that Capeci was wrong in the past but how many times have you been wrong? If I recall you were wrong on John Riggi still being the Boss and as well as Peter Gotti being the Boss and Jack D'Amico being Acting Boss over Nick Corozzo.


Pogo
When are you saying corozzo was acting boss? That very short period in the late 90's before going to jail?

On the topic of capeci no one is perfect but if he is not an expert on the ny mob I don't know who is he def knows more than many others who claim to be in the know.
Pete that was directed at me. Years back I said I didn't believe that Pete Gotti was really boss or wasn't really running the show..just in name only because he was such a fuckin bozo that Nicky Corozzo must be really running the show. Then an indictment or some news article came out a short time later were an FBI agent or Capeci said Pete Gotti is the boss or some shit. lol Pogo and Wiseguy cant grasp the threads were guys add there opinions on the current "unknowns" of the mob. This thread was who you think is really running the lucheses on the street. I said it must be Crea. Pogo and Wiseguy do no stray from gangland or old indictments. They do no enjoy a those conversations. So to them...Amuso is defacto boss calling all the shots(even though he is in prison for the last 20plus yrs) and Maddona is his underboss. Which means they think Crea is just a Capo now and not part of the administration. My opinion is that Amuso holds the title Official boss and Crea is the street boss really running the family on the street. Maddona gets shipped off for the 3yrs shortly and has two additional trials/indictments on top of that. So he is pretty much out of the picture shortly.
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Rocco »

Wiseguy wrote:When one looks at Capeci's track record overall, and doesn't just cherry pick, he has been very reliable. But even if you want to take him out of the debate, as Pogo pointed out, we have the FBI still saying Amuso is the boss. There's no getting around that and all the opinions and speculation on the forums amount to a steaming pile of dung compared to it. Some people just never learn.

Wiseguy.. you just don't grasp it. You never will. So let me make this easy for you. WE KNOW THE FBI SAID AMUSO IS OFFICIAL BOSS. No one is debating he holds that title even though Capeci printed otherwise then did an about face. But you cant run a crime family from prison you need an acting /street boss to do so... My question to you and pogo is:

Who is gonna run the family on the street?? Who is the street boss/acting boss for the luchese family. Its been written that Matty was underboss or even street boss. BUT MAtty is out of the picture soon(sentenced in a few months) for 3yrs and when he pleads out to the two other cases he has must likely he will be jailed to his death.

I know you guys don't like you use your personal opinion on the unknowns of current LCN position...you defer back to the last known Gangland or Indictment no matter how old it is. BUT you CANT do that in this discussion. You MUST USE your OWN personal opinion on who is really gonna the family day to day? Who will be the street boss?? Crea......? No more cutting and pasting old ganglands and indictments.

FYI And if you come back and say that Amuso is boss there is no street boss because he calls his underboss Madonna on the phone every day from prison to discuss rackets and making and breaking ranks I am going to reach thru the computer screen and back hand you. Use your own opinion... Use your own mind based on what you know from those old indictments. Anyone he can look up old ganglands and indictments but it doesn't tell use who will lead the Lucheses on the street when Mattys time is up or perhaps Matty is operating under Crea? BEtter yet ..just tell me what you think Crea's position is in the family. Since that was not in the gangland or any indictment it will force you to use your own opinion.
Last edited by Rocco on Sun May 31, 2015 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Pete »

Rocco wrote:
Pete wrote:
Pogo The Clown wrote:4 FBI agents (who have access to several Lucchese informants and 60 years of in house intelligence on the Luccheses tht we don't have) and a Lucchese Associate Vs. Speculation on a mob forum. This is bascially what it all comes down to and what one thinks carries more weight.


You also keep mentioning that Capeci was wrong in the past but how many times have you been wrong? If I recall you were wrong on John Riggi still being the Boss and as well as Peter Gotti being the Boss and Jack D'Amico being Acting Boss over Nick Corozzo.


Pogo
When are you saying corozzo was acting boss? That very short period in the late 90's before going to jail?

On the topic of capeci no one is perfect but if he is not an expert on the ny mob I don't know who is he def knows more than many others who claim to be in the know.
Pete that was directed at me. Years back I said I didn't believe that Pete Gotti was really boss or wasn't really running the show..just in name only because he was such a fuckin bozo that Nicky Corozzo must be really running the show. Then an indictment or some news article came out a short time later were an FBI agent or Capeci said Pete Gotti is the boss or some shit. lol Pogo and Wiseguy cant grasp the threads were guys add there opinions on the current "unknowns" of the mob. This thread was who you think is really running the lucheses on the street. I said it must be Crea. Pogo and Wiseguy do no stray from gangland or old indictments. They do no enjoy a those conversations. So to them...Amuso is defacto boss calling all the shots(even though he is in prison for the last 20plus yrs) and Maddona is his underboss. Which means they think Crea is just a Capo now and not part of the administration. My opinion is that Amuso holds the title Official boss and Crea is the street boss really running the family on the street. Maddona gets shipped off for the 3yrs shortly and has two additional trials/indictments on top of that. So he is pretty much out of the picture shortly.
Wait I thought it was common knowledge while amuso is boss crea is acting boss and the number 1 guy on the street? I didnt realize that was the argument here.

In regards to Pete gotti and corozzo I don't think what you said there was necessarily wrong either while Pete was official boss his own brothers thought he was a moron I doubt he told Nicky what to do but who knows
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Re: Gangland:5/28/15

Post by Rocco »

Pete wrote:
Rocco wrote:
Pete wrote:
Pogo The Clown wrote:4 FBI agents (who have access to several Lucchese informants and 60 years of in house intelligence on the Luccheses tht we don't have) and a Lucchese Associate Vs. Speculation on a mob forum. This is bascially what it all comes down to and what one thinks carries more weight.


You also keep mentioning that Capeci was wrong in the past but how many times have you been wrong? If I recall you were wrong on John Riggi still being the Boss and as well as Peter Gotti being the Boss and Jack D'Amico being Acting Boss over Nick Corozzo.


Pogo
When are you saying corozzo was acting boss? That very short period in the late 90's before going to jail?

On the topic of capeci no one is perfect but if he is not an expert on the ny mob I don't know who is he def knows more than many others who claim to be in the know.
Pete that was directed at me. Years back I said I didn't believe that Pete Gotti was really boss or wasn't really running the show..just in name only because he was such a fuckin bozo that Nicky Corozzo must be really running the show. Then an indictment or some news article came out a short time later were an FBI agent or Capeci said Pete Gotti is the boss or some shit. lol Pogo and Wiseguy cant grasp the threads were guys add there opinions on the current "unknowns" of the mob. This thread was who you think is really running the lucheses on the street. I said it must be Crea. Pogo and Wiseguy do no stray from gangland or old indictments. They do no enjoy a those conversations. So to them...Amuso is defacto boss calling all the shots(even though he is in prison for the last 20plus yrs) and Maddona is his underboss. Which means they think Crea is just a Capo now and not part of the administration. My opinion is that Amuso holds the title Official boss and Crea is the street boss really running the family on the street. Maddona gets shipped off for the 3yrs shortly and has two additional trials/indictments on top of that. So he is pretty much out of the picture shortly.
Wait I thought it was common knowledge while amuso is boss crea is acting boss and the number 1 guy on the street? I didnt realize that was the argument here.

In regards to Pete gotti and corozzo I don't think what you said there was necessarily wrong either while Pete was official boss his own brothers thought he was a moron I doubt he told Nicky what to do but who knows
According to Pogo and Wiseguy that is not the case because Capeci's article and Scarfo Jrs indicments says Amuso calls all the shots and runs family not Crea. They only mentioned Maddona as underboss. So unless Crea was mentioned as Acting Boss in that article or Scarfo indictment..then we cant talk about what our personal opinion of Crea position might be. lol To pogo and wiseguy since Crea wasn't mention then he is either a capo or soldier but we cant say that either because that wasn't in the article either.. So might as well assume Crea just doesn't exist and he got a job at shoprite and left LCN.. lol :)

As for what you said about Peter the dunce Gotti and Corrozo....if it wasn't written in gangland or an indictment that Pete Gotti was a dunce that nobody respected him and corrozzo didn't take orders from him then Pogo and Wiseguy will not tolerate that talk either.lol ...Unless we can get someone to feed that info to Capeci and he writes in next weeks gangland then we can talk about of course Capeci might retract that a few months later....;)
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