How Many Mafia Families Were There? 20,24,26???

[sdeitche]

Did the Commission have a standard, as far as anybody knows, to consider a family as independent and not just a large crew?

Not sure but Capeci said Rochester never received formal approval from the Commission to break away from Buffalo.

Interesting, that would mean they never truly were their own family from the perspective of the national mafia.

DiLeonardo said that when he met Frank Valenti, who by then lived in Tucson, Valenti had been assigned to Pete Milano by the Commission, so the Commission was still involved in Valenti's affairs later on.

I jnew Dileonardo met Valenti, but never heard that Valenti was put under Milano. Thats interesting to say the least .

Another Valenti tidbit. Vincent LoScalzo met with him a number of times in the late 80s/90 in Phoenix, according to FDLE agents who were tracking him.

[Antiliar]

This, of course, has also been much debated over the years. At least 24 most seem to agree on - all of which you listed above.

Ones in question are below.


1. Rochester, NY - broke off from Buffalo in the late-1960's, mentioned by FBI in 1980
2. Utica, NY - mentioned by Valachi in 1963
3. Unnamed Connecticut city - mentioned by Frattiano in 1980
4. Newark, NJ - absorbed by New York families in 1930's
5. Birmingham, AL - cited by Bill Bonanno, defunct since 1938
6. Steubenville, OH - mentioned by Fratianno in 1980
7. Rockford, IL - listed by FBI in 1980, 17 listed members in 1967 report
8. Springfield, IL - listed by FBI in 1980, 3 listed members in 1967 report
9. Madison, WI - listed by FBI and NYPD detective Ralph Salerno in 1980, 10 listed members in 1967 report
10. Pueblo, CO - didn't last past 1930's
11. Tucson, AZ - broke off from Bonannos in mid-1960's, listed by FBI in 1963, 1980, and 1988
12. San Diego, CA - cited by Bonanno, absorbed by Los Angeles in 1930's

I think some cities on this list should be attributed to conflation, confusion and misremembering. I don't think there was ever a separate Connecticut crime family. Not sure if Steubenville was ever a Mafia borgata, but may have been a Camorra group that was absorbed by Cleveland. Pueblo and Denver could have been a single Family. I don't think Tucson was an actual borgata, and there's nothing that I'm aware of that indicates that there was a Family in San Diego.

[maxiestern11]

This, of course, has also been much debated over the years. At least 24 most seem to agree on - all of which you listed above.

Ones in question are below.


1. Rochester, NY - broke off from Buffalo in the late-1960's, mentioned by FBI in 1980
2. Utica, NY - mentioned by Valachi in 1963
3. Unnamed Connecticut city - mentioned by Frattiano in 1980
4. Newark, NJ - absorbed by New York families in 1930's
5. Birmingham, AL - cited by Bill Bonanno, defunct since 1938
6. Steubenville, OH - mentioned by Fratianno in 1980
7. Rockford, IL - listed by FBI in 1980, 17 listed members in 1967 report
8. Springfield, IL - listed by FBI in 1980, 3 listed members in 1967 report
9. Madison, WI - listed by FBI and NYPD detective Ralph Salerno in 1980, 10 listed members in 1967 report
10. Pueblo, CO - didn't last past 1930's
11. Tucson, AZ - broke off from Bonannos in mid-1960's, listed by FBI in 1963, 1980, and 1988
12. San Diego, CA - cited by Bonanno, absorbed by Los Angeles in 1930's

I think some cities on this list should be attributed to conflation, confusion and misremembering. I don't think there was ever a separate Connecticut crime family. Not sure if Steubenville was ever a Mafia borgata, but may have been a Camorra group that was absorbed by Cleveland. Pueblo and Denver could have been a single Family. I don't think Tucson was an actual borgata, and there's nothing that I'm aware of that indicates that there was a Family in San Diego.

.... I completely agree with your assessment.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

In "Wiseguy" Henry Hill mentions a Connecticut "boss" that was celled up with Paulie and Johnny Dio in prison.

[Wiseguy]

This, of course, has also been much debated over the years. At least 24 most seem to agree on - all of which you listed above.

Ones in question are below.


1. Rochester, NY - broke off from Buffalo in the late-1960's, mentioned by FBI in 1980
2. Utica, NY - mentioned by Valachi in 1963
3. Unnamed Connecticut city - mentioned by Frattiano in 1980
4. Newark, NJ - absorbed by New York families in 1930's
5. Birmingham, AL - cited by Bill Bonanno, defunct since 1938
6. Steubenville, OH - mentioned by Fratianno in 1980
7. Rockford, IL - listed by FBI in 1980, 17 listed members in 1967 report
8. Springfield, IL - listed by FBI in 1980, 3 listed members in 1967 report
9. Madison, WI - listed by FBI and NYPD detective Ralph Salerno in 1980, 10 listed members in 1967 report
10. Pueblo, CO - didn't last past 1930's
11. Tucson, AZ - broke off from Bonannos in mid-1960's, listed by FBI in 1963, 1980, and 1988
12. San Diego, CA - cited by Bonanno, absorbed by Los Angeles in 1930's

I think some cities on this list should be attributed to conflation, confusion and misremembering. I don't think there was ever a separate Connecticut crime family. Not sure if Steubenville was ever a Mafia borgata, but may have been a Camorra group that was absorbed by Cleveland. Pueblo and Denver could have been a single Family. I don't think Tucson was an actual borgata, and there's nothing that I'm aware of that indicates that there was a Family in San Diego.

I agree. I put them up there to show all the possibilities thrown out over the years.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Chicago was never even a real Costa Nostra family anyway.


Pogo

I've heard people say this. What would be your reasoning behind it?

Accardo was born and raised in Chicago, as I'd have to guess most of the captains were in the outfit's heyday. I've heard people say that each of the Chicago's crews were more like families of their own, with Accardo being the boss of bosses so to speak. Didn't the Genovese copy the street boss concept from them? Insulating the boss with as many layers as possible? I think in many ways Chicago was ahead of the game. Treating it like an empire. Of course, they did mostly die out.

[Confederate]

Chicago was never even a real Costa Nostra family anyway.


Pogo

I've heard people say this. What would be your reasoning behind it?

Accardo was born and raised in Chicago, as I'd have to guess most of the captains were in the outfit's heyday. I've heard people say that each of the Chicago's crews were more like families of their own, with Accardo being the boss of bosses so to speak. Didn't the Genovese copy the street boss concept from them? Insulating the boss with as many layers as possible? I think in many ways Chicago was ahead of the game. Treating it like an empire. Of course, they did mostly die out.

Chicago was more like a SYNDICATE, part of which belonged to the National LCN for convenient purposes IMO.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Seemed to have read that Giancana didn't care if people were Italian or even made. If you earned and were trusted to not talk, you were well regarded by him no matter your status in their "thing".

[Pogo The Clown]

It was an inside joke. That was one of big arguements back on the old forums.


Pogo

[Confederate]

It was an inside joke. That was one of big arguements back on the old forums.


Pogo

I can see how some die hard Chicago people took great offense to it.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

I figured you were being sarcastic Pogo but I've heard this said about Chicago before many times. I'm not disputing it, just asking for clarification. And, I tend to agree with it. Chicago certainly didn't function like a "family". Then again, the Luciano family didn't function like the "conservative" Sicilian faction of NY, either. In fact, the Luciano/Genovese seemed to adopt Chicago's policy of insulating the boss.

[Lupara]

Insulating the boss with as many layers as possible? I think in many ways Chicago was ahead of the game.

They were ahead of their game that they are now in the endgame. Even Joe Todaro's Buffalo family is more viable than Chicago nowadays.

[Pogo The Clown]

I figured you were being sarcastic Pogo but I've heard this said about Chicago before many times. I'm not disputing it, just asking for clarification. And, I tend to agree with it. Chicago certainly didn't function like a "family". Then again, the Luciano family didn't function like the "conservative" Sicilian faction of NY, either. In fact, the Luciano/Genovese seemed to adopt Chicago's policy of insulating the boss.

They didn't start out as the Cosa Nostra family when they formed. the first Bosses like Colosimo, Torrio and Capone during the beginning of his reign where not made members of LCN. I believe it wasn't until 1931 that they were accepted as a CN family but despite they kept a lot of their original customs and practices though that of course faded with time.


Pogo

[Grouchy Sinatra]

I agree. They're pretty much died off now. Fast rise and fall. Probably the most powerful family or "syndicate" between Costello's retirement and Operation Pendorf.

[Frank]

Insulating the boss with as many layers as possible? I think in many ways Chicago was ahead of the game.

They were ahead of their game that they are now in the endgame. Even Joe Todaro's Buffalo family is more viable than Chicago nowadays.

I don't know if I'd go that far. Buffalo's new Underboss only lasted 2 months on the streets lol.