Commission membership

[Pogo The Clown]

Santo Traficante is the Boss of Florida. He sits on the fucking Commission did you know that?

This was line from Donnie Brasco for those who missed it.


Pogo

[B.]

There are also examples of the Commission setting up sub-committees and panels of representatives to handle certain issues. For example, Angelo Bruno, Joe Zerilli, and Sam DeCavalcante were tasked with addressing Joe Bonanno early in the Bonanno conflict. The Commission was set up to carry an odd number of members to avoid stalemates in voting, and they used this odd number idea when setting up these panels of representatives, too. There was a rule that in order for a message from the Commission to be legitimate, it had to be carried by three delegates and Joe Bonanno tried to use this to his advantage as he never met with all three men at once. "I only got a text from one of u... u never sent a group text w/ all three of us. k bye."

Bruno and Zerilli were both official Commission members by the early 1960s. Bruno is recorded discussing this himself on his office bug, while Zerilli was recorded meeting with Ray Patriarca on Patriarca's own office bug and both explicitly discuss their membership on the Commission and other Commission business. DeCavalcante on the other hand was not on the Commission, which Joe Bonanno says explicitly in his book and is more or less backed up by DeCavalcante's office tapes.

Both Joe Bonanno and Sam DeCavalcante confirmed that DeCavalcante met with Bonanno personally at the very start of the Bonanno conflict. Bonanno discusses it in his book, but DeCavalcante was recorded in his office bug saying that Bonanno criticized him at this meeting, telling DeCavalcante something to the affect that he was not the man his father (Frank Rizzo DeCavalcante) had been. So Bonanno didn't only disparage DeCavalcante decades later in his book, but also directly to DeCavalcante's face.

This is interesting because it means the Commission set up a panel that included two Commission members and a non-Commission member who was still nonetheless a boss. These sorts of sub-committees and panels were common even before the Commission existed, as discussed by Gentile. Despite the despotism of the "capo dei capi" position, the mafia appears to have always used ruling bodies and assemblies to handle important issues, but earlier on they were probably more prone to manipulation from the boss of bosses as he could assign who was on these committees and influence them.

[Villain]

I believe Meyer Lansky could attend Commission meetings and give advice at least during the reigns of Luciano and Costello. Some people confuse the Italian-Jewish confederation formed in 1929 with the Cosa Nostra Commission.

Exactly.

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?do ... rdo_lansky

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?do ... rdo_lansky

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?do ... rdo_lansky

[maxiestern11]

DeCavalcante was used as a messenger during the early 1960s between Bonanno and the Commission. I don’t think he had a seat, but from what I gather he often spoke for them, along with Zerilli and Bruno, who were members.

From time to time as the need arises, anyone can be designated as a “representative” for the commission. DeCavalcante was indeed just that during the 1960’s. Specifically Sam was tapped by Carlo among others to reach out and speak to Bonanno and various members as an “extension” of the commission itself. When that’s done, the person so designated is in fact a “member” of the particular mini-Commission relative to the issue at hand.

100% spot on

[B.]

Avugad/avugat/avvocato is used by a number of guys on tapes back then... the translation is "lawyer" and is used loosely, probably in the literal sense as an "advocate" on a certain issue. It was on the list of terms they asked informants about and the response was that it did not refer to any formal position in Cosa Nostra.

Meyer Lansky was an incredibly influential associate. Associates can still attend sitdowns when a matter concerns them, so I'd assume the same idea is true at higher levels. No doubt not all associates are created equal.

[Villain]

Avugad/avugat/avvocato is used by a number of guys on tapes back then... the translation is "lawyer" and is used loosely, probably in the literal sense as an "advocate" on a certain issue. It was on the list of terms they asked informants about and the response was that it did not refer to any formal position in Cosa Nostra.

Meyer Lansky was an incredibly influential associate. Associates can still attend sitdowns when a matter concerns them, so I'd assume the same idea is true at higher levels. No doubt not all associates are created equal.

I dont know who CG T-3 is..could be PIerce...could be Fratto or maybe some other fella from another family associated with the Outfit at the time...but he also mentions "the big round table". Im not pushing anything here since believe me that I also dismiss Lansky as commission member but Im just posting the strange infos which at least needs to be looked at

I also dont think that Accardo would talk to Giancana if "some" Jew all the way in New York became a good associate...just sayin...maybe Lansky really attended few commission meetings and stuff...no big deal about it since we're talking about the U.S. here, not Italy

Maybe Accardo and Giancana commented on the situation in a funny way since the Outfit always had high ranking non Italian guys and possibly received complaints about it from other families, and now the east coast allegedly had Lansky up there

[B.]

Yeah, going back to the Lonardo testimony, he talks about Rockman in Cleveland being included and consulted in high-level mafia matters. We have recordings of made guys talking to associates (Italian and non-Italian) about promotions, titles, etc. in the organization. Would be no surprise if people were open with Lansky about everything and that he pushed the limits of the word "associate".

[JCB1977]

Yeah, going back to the Lonardo testimony, he talks about Rockman in Cleveland being included and consulted in high-level mafia matters. We have recordings of made guys talking to associates (Italian and non-Italian) about promotions, titles, etc. in the organization. Would be no surprise if people were open with Lansky about everything and that he pushed the limits of the word "associate".

Rockman was invited to quite a few sit downs in Chicago, Milwaukee & KC regarding the skim. Rockman was well respected.

[maxiestern11]

Yeah, going back to the Lonardo testimony, he talks about Rockman in Cleveland being included and consulted in high-level mafia matters. We have recordings of made guys talking to associates (Italian and non-Italian) about promotions, titles, etc. in the organization. Would be no surprise if people were open with Lansky about everything and that he pushed the limits of the word "associate".

I do believe Lansky sat in on many high level meetings as it applied to him or his dealings with top members (commission members per se).... but I DO NOT believe he would have ever been allowed to actually sit in on a formal “commission” meeting of multiple family heads (7-9 top bosses) ...... just my opinion. He was still an associate. And Jewish at that! ..... only the heads “per se” sit at that level although others, members and associates alike are utilized for commission business. Especially in the old days where things and the structure was more formalized.

If anything, “sitdowns” relative to Casinos in Cuba, Vegas, Bahamas etc., I think is where he may have had to interact at a higher level if simply because of his knowledge relative to same.... he was often at the helm of those gambling operations so his “input” would have been required..... if he did sit at a commission meet, the conversation would have been restricted to the particular subject he was needed for and then he would have been excused from the table ..... for sure!!

[Antiliar]

Avugad/avugat/avvocato is used by a number of guys on tapes back then... the translation is "lawyer" and is used loosely, probably in the literal sense as an "advocate" on a certain issue. It was on the list of terms they asked informants about and the response was that it did not refer to any formal position in Cosa Nostra.

Meyer Lansky was an incredibly influential associate. Associates can still attend sitdowns when a matter concerns them, so I'd assume the same idea is true at higher levels. No doubt not all associates are created equal.

My theory is that Lansky was recognized as the head of the "Jewish Mafia." He represented Moe Dalitz, David Berman, Morris Rosen, Ice Pick Willie Alderman, and others as sort of a nationwide crew of Jewish mobsters. If there was a beef between Mafia members and Jewish mobsters, Lansky would represent them.

[maxiestern11]

Avugad/avugat/avvocato is used by a number of guys on tapes back then... the translation is "lawyer" and is used loosely, probably in the literal sense as an "advocate" on a certain issue. It was on the list of terms they asked informants about and the response was that it did not refer to any formal position in Cosa Nostra.

Meyer Lansky was an incredibly influential associate. Associates can still attend sitdowns when a matter concerns them, so I'd assume the same idea is true at higher levels. No doubt not all associates are created equal.

My theory is that Lansky was recognized as the head of the "Jewish Mafia." He represented Moe Dalitz, David Berman, Morris Rosen, Ice Pick Willie Alderman, and others as sort of a nationwide crew of Jewish mobsters. If there was a beef between Mafia members and Jewish mobsters, Lansky would represent them.

Agreed.... and much of that power emanated from his close friendship with Luciano and Costello..... and the Jewish racketeers looked up to him as their “rabbi”
Because of this close relationship! It served both the Jews and Italians very well for decades and made for many profitable mutual ventures!

[Homerthedog]

Yeah, going back to the Lonardo testimony, he talks about Rockman in Cleveland being included and consulted in high-level mafia matters. We have recordings of made guys talking to associates (Italian and non-Italian) about promotions, titles, etc. in the organization. Would be no surprise if people were open with Lansky about everything and that he pushed the limits of the word "associate".

I do believe Lansky sat in on many high level meetings as it applied to him or his dealings with top members (commission members per se).... but I DO NOT believe he would have ever been allowed to actually sit in on a formal “commission” meeting of multiple family heads (7-9 top bosses) ...... just my opinion. He was still an associate. And Jewish at that! ..... only the heads “per se” sit at that level although others, members and associates alike are utilized for commission business. Especially in the old days where things and the structure was more formalized.

If anything, “sitdowns” relative to Casinos in Cuba, Vegas, Bahamas etc., I think is where he may have had to interact at a higher level if simply because of his knowledge relative to same.... he was often at the helm of those gambling operations so his “input” would have been required..... if he did sit at a commission meet, the conversation would have been restricted to the particular subject he was needed for and then he would have been excused from the table ..... for sure!!

Another example would have been the Commission meeting in late 1946 or early 1947 to resolve the Bugsy Siegel issue at the Flamingo. I guess the Commission consulted Lansky out of respect and because it had to approve a hit on a boss, even if not an Italian one but one closely associated with them. Just like Dutch Schultz in 1935.

[maxiestern11]

Yeah, going back to the Lonardo testimony, he talks about Rockman in Cleveland being included and consulted in high-level mafia matters. We have recordings of made guys talking to associates (Italian and non-Italian) about promotions, titles, etc. in the organization. Would be no surprise if people were open with Lansky about everything and that he pushed the limits of the word "associate".

I do believe Lansky sat in on many high level meetings as it applied to him or his dealings with top members (commission members per se).... but I DO NOT believe he would have ever been allowed to actually sit in on a formal “commission” meeting of multiple family heads (7-9 top bosses) ...... just my opinion. He was still an associate. And Jewish at that! ..... only the heads “per se” sit at that level although others, members and associates alike are utilized for commission business. Especially in the old days where things and the structure was more formalized.

If anything, “sitdowns” relative to Casinos in Cuba, Vegas, Bahamas etc., I think is where he may have had to interact at a higher level if simply because of his knowledge relative to same.... he was often at the helm of those gambling operations so his “input” would have been required..... if he did sit at a commission meet, the conversation would have been restricted to the particular subject he was needed for and then he would have been excused from the table ..... for sure!!

Another example would have been the Commission meeting in late 1946 or early 1947 to resolve the Bugsy Siegel issue at the Flamingo. I guess the Commission consulted Lansky out of respect and because it had to approve a hit on a boss, even if not an Italian one but one closely associated with them. Just like Dutch Schultz in 1935.

I’d have to agree with you on that one

[Villain]

Avugad/avugat/avvocato is used by a number of guys on tapes back then... the translation is "lawyer" and is used loosely, probably in the literal sense as an "advocate" on a certain issue. It was on the list of terms they asked informants about and the response was that it did not refer to any formal position in Cosa Nostra.

Meyer Lansky was an incredibly influential associate. Associates can still attend sitdowns when a matter concerns them, so I'd assume the same idea is true at higher levels. No doubt not all associates are created equal.

My theory is that Lansky was recognized as the head of the "Jewish Mafia." He represented Moe Dalitz, David Berman, Morris Rosen, Ice Pick Willie Alderman, and others as sort of a nationwide crew of Jewish mobsters. If there was a beef between Mafia members and Jewish mobsters, Lansky would represent them.

You might be onto something here, since Ive seen references regarding Chicago Jewish gangsters such as Vogel and Larner being closely associated with Lansky, but Ive never seen anything on Guzik or any other high profile fella being connected to him. Although I think that Chicago's Jewish faction didnt need any protection from Lansky since few of them had the Outfit's membership for themselves. BUT as I already stated that you might be onto something here since many of the non-Italian gangsters had bases of their own, like for example Gus Alex controlled all Greek bookies or loan sharks from around the Chicago area and so on the Outfit's round table he was responsible for them. So it is possible that Lansky attended few commission meetings regarding the interests of some high profile non-Italian gangsters who were involved with the Mafia, as a different faction or something like that.

This could be the only explanation, since Lansky was almost like a member of the Genovese family which in turn already had their own Italian or Sicilian reps on the round table. So it doesnt sound reasonable for a someone who already belongs to the Genovese family to receive a seat on the commission, unless he represents another completely different faction which is consisted of numerous and lucrative non-Italian fellas with inevitable connections...like an additional crime family

In addition, during the early 1960's, both Ricca and Giancana had a seat on the commission and were advised at the same time, according to Tommy Eboli regarding the Bonanno problem