Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[SonnyBlackstein]

It would be easier to do so if I didn't have a strong suspicion that some here argue for Buffalo still being around simply because they find the idea more appealing.

You’re doing an astoundingly good job of not letting any facts get in the way of your ‘suspicions’.

[B.]

30 guys in the context of a mafia family that was once over 4 times larger doesn't seem like much of a brag if that was his intention. It doesn't count as replenishing their ranks, either -- 30 down, 95 to go. As underboss, he would have been in a position to know the membership size and while he could have been generalizing, would he say 30 if he really meant 15? I'm more inclined to believe that an offhand 30 could mean between 25 to 35 but I will take his words at face value and assume there are roughly 30 members. I recognize that he was speaking casually but beyond that I can't assume to know if Violi had any other intention behind the words he said.

Since the New York City examples are obvious and maybe too big to compare, on the opposite end we have Dallas whose family was the smallest group in the post-1930s US mafia with the added bonus of having what may have been the most limited recruiting pool. They are believed to have had no inductions for decades prior to the 1960s and the family was down to just a few members before finally replenishing their membership later in the 1960s, partially through kinship ties. That was the 1960s, yes, but it could easily be argued that Dallas was less hospitable to mafia activity in the 1960s/70s than Buffalo/Ontario was in the 2000s.

Sustainability and maintenance is another question entirely. Did Violi say anything about the family being able to maintain the number 30 indefinitely or even for the foreseeable future? Did he say anything about the family growing beyond 30 and into monstrous crime syndicate numbers... like 50? I don't remember anything of that nature in the transcripts that were released. With that in mind, I will stick with his words alone and operate under the belief that the Magaddino family had roughly 30 members at the time he made those comments to Morena, but at no point in any of this discussion have I made any inference that Buffalo is experiencing some massive boom. It could very well be that once these 30 alleged members die, that's the end of it. I have no opinion on what Violi's comments mean on an ongoing basis or in the future.

What makes all of this much more interesting is that Ontario has experienced so much mafia-connected murder during this same timeline, including figures connected to the Buffalo Ontario group in question. This is at a time too when Montreal mafia murder has been a regular occurrence for about a decade and there are many connections between the Buffalo Ontario group and Montreal. I don't know that we can keep comparing the Buffalo Ontario crew with other families, past or present, given that the climate in which they're operating is unlike any other mafia territory in modern North America. Yet what we've learned is that they remain part of the Buffalo Cosa Nostra family regardless of the shape it is or isn't in. We have an indictment and taped statements that confirm that.

[NickleCity]

It is important to recognize that the FBI may have never identified all of the made members of the Buffalo family. Magaddino was recorded telling his Utica capodecina that, at its peak, his organization had 125 members. This is close to other estimates of the Buffalo family at their peak, including Valachi, who was close to the Buffalo group.

In the 1960s when the FBI had extensive identifications for other families (for example, they ID'd almost all of Philly), the FBI identified less than half of the estimated Buffalo membership.

I haven't come across any documents or information that indicates the FBI ever identified anywhere close to the full membership. Naturally the family's size has become diminished, but the FBI's information was historically incomplete and to ignore that is to weaken your argument for the sake of being right about something that can't be publicly proven at the present moment.

Off the top of my head here are 2 quick thoughts about possible members that were not identified by the FBI in that ‘97 chart.

1. Joseph Pezzino. He died in on 6/2/2000. His nephew William Ianaccone indicates his uncle was a made man in the Buffalo Mob. In the following recording William talks to his cousin about his uncle Joe and text verifies Pezzino’s date of death https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-HiYh_wybo#menu. In the following recording Betty Pezzino comes right out and says Joe was in the Mob. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfx2SkvSUKc The Pezzinos are alleged to have stollen money from Ianaccone’s Father, washed it in Reno, and invested it in Samual’s Grande Mannor. Joey Todaro III had his reception there in 93.

2. Andy Aiello. He was 43 when busted with that heroin shipment in ‘83. From what I was told he was out mid-nineties. I couldn’t find a obit for him, but I am pretty sure he has passed. That being said he would have only been 57 when the ‘97 chart came out.

[maxiestern11]

I believe there could be a formalized structure of some sort up that way bordering, and into Canada also, but “technically” the Buffalo mob.
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Not a large multi/crewed “traditional” format because of its limited membership, but a structure non the less.
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There are always guys looking to make a buck; bookmaking, a little shylock, maybe limited union activity..... but because of the limited $$ potential and “action” up that way to begin with, are not the active and subsequently exposed to a lot of LE scrutiny.
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And in the alternative, may not even report to a “Buffalo”
boss and hierarchy as in years backs, or do so under the overall guidance of one of the “NYC” families, making the limited membership almost like “satellite” crew of NY.
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Remember, we do know that there is still a ton of narcotics activity crossing that border, so they could even be “partnered” up under a “Canadian” flag, gaining backing and strength from a Canadian N’drangheta cell or Sicilian crew like Rizzuto.

[maxiestern11]

I believe there could be a formalized structure of some sort up that way bordering, and into Canada also, but “technically” the Buffalo mob.
-
Not a large multi/crewed “traditional” format because of its limited membership, but a structure non the less.
-
There are always guys looking to make a buck; bookmaking, a little shylock, maybe limited union activity..... but because of the limited $$ potential and “action” up that way to begin with, are not the active and subsequently exposed to a lot of LE scrutiny.
-
And in the alternative, may not even report to a “Buffalo”
boss and hierarchy as in years backs, or do so under the overall guidance of one of the “NYC” families, making the limited membership almost like “satellite” crew of NY.
-
Remember, we do know that there is still a ton of narcotics activity crossing that border, so they could even be “partnered” up under a “Canadian” flag, gaining backing and strength from a Canadian N’drangheta cell or Sicilian crew like Rizzuto.

I do NOT believe that there are NO formal members left. Only that maybe those members active today have never been “listed” on charts or “officially” documented.
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Like the 5-NYC crews (who in my opinion) with all the attention that has been brought to bear on them for the last sixty + years by LE and newspaper exposes, etc., still always had/have probably a good 10-20% “never identified” members and “top tier” associates who operated/operate in almost complete anonymity, so too do other crews out of the NY area (maybe even more so because of less exposure and hype).

..... and we have seen that people like Morena, Zummo, Simplice and others, identify with the Bonanno’s and Gambino’s and yet operated up through Buffalo and back and forth through Canada, so I don’t think it’s a big stretch to imagine that they obviously “tie up” with others from up that way, so there has to be some sort of structure correct?

Calabrese, Sicilians, Canadians, upstate Americans...... I don’t see this as a big “leap of faith” to imagine an “anchor” crew like “Buffalo” still having a hand in things, helping and coordinating” narcotics if nothing else. And “booking” and “shy” is never far away if even some guys are still active. Even if it’s only a 10-20 member family (the equivalent of one NYC regime), it still could be considered a “family”..... like smaller families who operated for decades both here and in Italy.
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[maxiestern11]

The Magaddino’s, Pieri’s and Randaccio’s are long gone. And if they are younger guys, many of them may never have even been arrested yet. With names “unknown” to readers and even LE...... similar to Zummo and Semplice, but as time passes, and a few cases are made, they too will become “household names”. I also think that because of the heavy LE pressure and investigative techniques, many current guys do not fly wild today, but try and stay more under the radar. This too adds to a level of “no-info”, until eventually a case comes together
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Look at how few cases have been made in NYC lately, and admittedly there are still a ton of active guys around. So now imagine a small town like Buffalo, with so many fewer guys and opportunities to “earn”. It only makes sense that there will be much fewer cases to document up that way.

[TommyGambino]

Calling yourself antcommello loooool

I am a 2nd cousin of ant

very strange

[AntComello]

Calling yourself antcommello loooool

I am a 2nd cousin of ant

very strange

He’s the one who told me about this site...he used to come on here and after all this shit happened I figured I would come here to find answers or at the very least learn what this was all about.

[TommyGambino]

Calling yourself antcommello loooool

I am a 2nd cousin of ant

very strange

He’s the one who told me about this site...he used to come on here and after all this shit happened I figured I would come here to find answers or at the very least learn what this was all about.

[scagghiuni]

This goes back to what I said about looking at the trends.


Chicago has pretty much withered away. NE has withered away to the point where they are now essentially a Boston organization with remnants in Providence and next to nothing in Connecticut. From all accounts Philly has started to slow down. Same with activity in Florida. We are even seeing the Luccheses and Colombos starting to downsize in terms of the number of crews they can field.


So how likely is it that a family whose membership has been shrinking and aging for 40 years, who has shown so little activity over 20 years and has been considered dormant by LE for at least 15 years is now suddenly not only replenishing its ranks (after being unable to do so in the previous decades) but enough to start growing again? And it all flying right under the nose of the FBI, NY state LE and local LE?

Pogo

buffalo family is at this point essentially a canadian organization with remnants in the states, fbi knows little about canada, we know it, even concerning montreal where tons of bonanno or ex bonanno members were killed in the latest years

[Pogo The Clown]

This goes back to what I said about looking at the trends.


Chicago has pretty much withered away. NE has withered away to the point where they are now essentially a Boston organization with remnants in Providence and next to nothing in Connecticut. From all accounts Philly has started to slow down. Same with activity in Florida. We are even seeing the Luccheses and Colombos starting to downsize in terms of the number of crews they can field.


So how likely is it that a family whose membership has been shrinking and aging for 40 years, who has shown so little activity over 20 years and has been considered dormant by LE for at least 15 years is now suddenly not only replenishing its ranks (after being unable to do so in the previous decades) but enough to start growing again? And it all flying right under the nose of the FBI, NY state LE and local LE?


To put it in perspective Philly has made almost 100 new members since 1980 and they have barely been able to keep their membership in the 40s range. So really how likely is it that Buffalo has been able to keep it up in the 30s range? Isn't it far more likely Violi was simply exaggerating/boasting when he made that 30 guys remark?

To further put things in perspective those 16-20 new members being inducted by Buffalo would be active members by definition. Add in those active from the remaining membership and that would put their active membership in the 20s range in the present day.


Now that would give them twice as many active members as Philly had during the early and mid 2000s and a more or comparable active membership than Philly has had since the late 1980s.


Really how believable is it that present day Buffalo, who been considered dormant by LE for at least 15 years, has a more or comparable active membership than Philly has had over the last 30 years? Keep in mind that Philly is not only recognized by LE but has shown itself to be the most criminally active family in the country outside of the NY during that same period.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

30 guys in the context of a mafia family that was once over 4 times larger doesn't seem like much of a brag if that was his intention. It doesn't count as replenishing their ranks, either -- 30 down, 95 to go. As underboss, he would have been in a position to know the membership size and while he could have been generalizing, would he say 30 if he really meant 15? I'm more inclined to believe that an offhand 30 could mean between 25 to 35 but I will take his words at face value and assume there are roughly 30 members. I recognize that he was speaking casually but beyond that I can't assume to know if Violi had any other intention behind the words he said.

Since the New York City examples are obvious and maybe too big to compare, on the opposite end we have Dallas whose family was the smallest group in the post-1930s US mafia with the added bonus of having what may have been the most limited recruiting pool. They are believed to have had no inductions for decades prior to the 1960s and the family was down to just a few members before finally replenishing their membership later in the 1960s, partially through kinship ties. That was the 1960s, yes, but it could easily be argued that Dallas was less hospitable to mafia activity in the 1960s/70s than Buffalo/Ontario was in the 2000s.

Sustainability and maintenance is another question entirely. Did Violi say anything about the family being able to maintain the number 30 indefinitely or even for the foreseeable future? Did he say anything about the family growing beyond 30 and into monstrous crime syndicate numbers... like 50? I don't remember anything of that nature in the transcripts that were released. With that in mind, I will stick with his words alone and operate under the belief that the Magaddino family had roughly 30 members at the time he made those comments to Morena, but at no point in any of this discussion have I made any inference that Buffalo is experiencing some massive boom. It could very well be that once these 30 alleged members die, that's the end of it. I have no opinion on what Violi's comments mean on an ongoing basis or in the future.

What makes all of this much more interesting is that Ontario has experienced so much mafia-connected murder during this same timeline, including figures connected to the Buffalo Ontario group in question. This is at a time too when Montreal mafia murder has been a regular occurrence for about a decade and there are many connections between the Buffalo Ontario group and Montreal. I don't know that we can keep comparing the Buffalo Ontario crew with other families, past or present, given that the climate in which they're operating is unlike any other mafia territory in modern North America. Yet what we've learned is that they remain part of the Buffalo Cosa Nostra family regardless of the shape it is or isn't in. We have an indictment and taped statements that confirm that.

Outstanding post.

[Lupara]

Prediction: there will not be a general, satisfiable consensus reached in this debate.

What incentive is there to drag on with this circle jerk? Wishful thinking in the hopes of changing people's minds or a determination to 'win' the discussion? There are certain individuals here absolutely adamant to have the final word, which goes beyond the subject at hand and has a personal touch to it.

Based on the history of this debate that has been going on for six months or so it is safe to conclude that most if not all participants have already made up their mind from the start and we're a bunch of stubborn assholes.

The only way to end this is a reaffirmation by the FBI that Buffalo mobsters are no longer in any way involved in organized crime and that there is no 'evidence' of interaction between mobsters on both sides of the border. That would mean that they consider Violi's statements dismisable, which is good enough for me to concede. But I just don't see this happening.

On the other hand, more information about the activity and interaction of mobsters in Buffalo and Southern Ontario would lend enough credence to an existing criminal enterprise. Another case made against these individuals may even convince the naysayers but there's a good change this won't happen either.

So I'll repeat the cliché, it's a never-ending circle jerk.

[Angelo Santino]

So is this about right?

[Frank]

Prediction: there will not be a general, satisfiable consensus reached in this debate.

What incentive is there to drag on with this circle jerk? Wishful thinking in the hopes of changing people's minds or a determination to 'win' the discussion? There are certain individuals here absolutely adamant to have the final word, which goes beyond the subject at hand and has a personal touch to it.

Based on the history of this debate that has been going on for six months or so it is safe to conclude that most if not all participants have already made up their mind from the start and we're a bunch of stubborn assholes.

The only way to end this is a reaffirmation by the FBI that Buffalo mobsters are no longer in any way involved in organized crime and that there is no 'evidence' of interaction between mobsters on both sides of the border. That would mean that they consider Violi's statements dismisable, which is good enough for me to concede. But I just don't see this happening.

On the other hand, more information about the activity and interaction of mobsters in Buffalo and Southern Ontario would lend enough credence to an existing criminal enterprise. Another case made against these individuals may even convince the naysayers but there's a good change this won't happen either.

So I'll repeat the cliché, it's a never-ending circle jerk.

I never would have thought that.