Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[johnny_scootch]

From the National Post article that started it all

Violi is also the grandson of the late Giacomo Luppino, who, from his humble home in Hamilton, was a senior mob authority in Canada in the 1960s and 70s. Luppino was said to have hacked off the ear of a rival and carried the leathery flap around with him for years.

It was Luppino who helped forge an alliance between Hamilton’s mobsters and the Mafia of Buffalo, which at the time was a powerful entity.

The Buffalo mob has since fallen on hard times. Old-timers who had run the group for years were dying of old age or retiring with little sign of new blood coming in, including Joe Todaro Sr., who was known by the nickname Lead Pipe Joe and was Joseph Todaro’s father.

The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated as the last reputed boss, Leonard (The Calzone) Falzone, was ailing. He died in 2016.

The reorganization seemed to begin in 2014.

Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.”

Violi said he beat out 30 other guys to become Underboss, the documents claim. All would have to be “made members” of the Buffalo Family to be considered for the post.



So from the very beginning of this it was admitted that the Buffalo family was withering away but it is clear an effort was made (most likely by Joe Todaro Jr) to bring the organization back. There are 10-15 guys still alive from that 1997 list that most likely isn't a full list and 22 years later it's impossible for the family to have 30 members????

[TommyGambino]

Calling yourself antcommello loooool

[B.]

That is a bit of a reach no? Back in the 1960s the FBI hadn't IDEd most of the membership of most of the NY families or Chicago either but by the 1990s they certainly had. Hard to believe that they wouldn't have had a complete picture of Buffalo's scope by the 1990s as well.


Pogo

I'm not making an argument toward any particular end so I don't know what the "reach" would be. I take Violi's taped comments at face value, as they have been confirmed in court, and I have an agnostic approach as to what his words mean in the context of current Buffalo mafia activities.

Do you have information that suggests the FBI's knowledge of the Buffalo membership was ever comprehensive or close to it? I ask that in earnest, as I have been researching the Buffalo group quite a bit in the last few years and I haven't seen anything from any era that suggests they had comprehensive member identifications at any point. To be fair, I'm less familiar with the 1980s and 90s, but much of the foundation of the FBI's membership counts are drawn from the 1960s. Each decade of FBI investigation doesn't exist in a vaccuum and much of it is based on building on previous information. Because the FBI was missing identities for more than half of the alleged membership in the 1960s, they were missing a large part of that foundation. Again, I don't know what sources of information the FBI had in more recent decades and I'm not trying to prove anything. This is a vital part of the discussion, plain and simple -- weigh it out how you want.

The NYC mafia also had extensive cooperation from member informants and witnesses from multiple families from the early 1960s up to present day, who could in turn identify members of different families as well as their own, during that period you refer to. NYC built solid foundations thanks to their sources in the 1960s and have continued to be at the absolute top of the game when it comes to identifying mafia members, but even then I've never seen an NYC FBI member list where every suspected member is identified/confirmed. I'm not familiar enough with Chicago to comment on them. Again, FBI offices and their sources/knowledge vary dramatically.

The Buffalo family historically had members in the following areas:
- Buffalo
- Niagara Falls
- Hamilton
- Toronto
- Erie
- Rochester
- Utica
- Syracuse
- Albany
- Youngstown
- NYC (one Utica member)
- Boston (one Utica member)

Naturally there were some members in smaller nearby towns as well.

[mobinfiltrator]

That is a bit of a reach no? Back in the 1960s the FBI hadn't IDEd most of the membership of most of the NY families or Chicago either but by the 1990s they certainly had. Hard to believe that they wouldn't have had a complete picture of Buffalo's scope by the 1990s as well.


Pogo

I'm not making an argument toward any particular end so I don't know what the "reach" would be. I take Violi's taped comments at face value, as they have been confirmed in court, and I have an agnostic approach as to what his words mean in the context of current Buffalo mafia activities.

Do you have information that suggests the FBI's knowledge of the Buffalo membership was ever comprehensive or close to it? I ask that in earnest, as I have been researching the Buffalo group quite a bit in the last few years and I haven't seen anything from any era that suggests they had comprehensive member identifications at any point. To be fair, I'm less familiar with the 1980s and 90s, but much of the foundation of the FBI's membership counts are drawn from the 1960s. Each decade of FBI investigation doesn't exist in a vaccuum and much of it is based on building on previous information. Because the FBI was missing identities for more than half of the alleged membership in the 1960s, they were missing a large part of that foundation. Again, I don't know what sources of information the FBI had in more recent decades and I'm not trying to prove anything. This is a vital part of the discussion, plain and simple -- weigh it out how you want.

The NYC mafia also had extensive cooperation from member informants and witnesses from multiple families, who could in turn identify members of different families from their own, during that period you refer to. I'm not familiar enough with Chicago to comment on them. Again, FBI offices don't exist in a vaccuum and their sources/knowledge vary dramatically between cities/FBI offices.

The Buffalo family historically had members in the following areas:
- Buffalo
- Niagara Falls
- Hamilton
- Toronto
- Erie
- Utica
- Syracuse
- Albany
- Youngstown
- NYC (one Utica member)
- Boston (one Utica member)

Naturally there were some members in smaller nearby towns as well.

What about Rochester, NY. Heard Buffalo covered there also???

[B.]

Paul -- yep, thanks for adding that. I knew I was missing an important one.

[scagghiuni]

So from the very beginning of this it was admitted that the Buffalo family was withering away but it is clear an effort was made (most likely by Joe Todaro Jr) to bring the organization back. There are 10-15 guys still alive from that 1997 list that most likely isn't a full list and 22 years later it's impossible for the family to have 30 members????

the bonanno's probably forced joe todaro jr to make new members (imo) why they wanted more allies in ontario to fight rizzuto/musitano group... anyway i doubt fbi knows all the canadian side members, maybe they know all the ones based in buffalo, but they knows very little if not absolutely nothing of canada, montreal included

[Wiseguy]

From the National Post article that started it all

Violi is also the grandson of the late Giacomo Luppino, who, from his humble home in Hamilton, was a senior mob authority in Canada in the 1960s and 70s. Luppino was said to have hacked off the ear of a rival and carried the leathery flap around with him for years.

It was Luppino who helped forge an alliance between Hamilton’s mobsters and the Mafia of Buffalo, which at the time was a powerful entity.

The Buffalo mob has since fallen on hard times. Old-timers who had run the group for years were dying of old age or retiring with little sign of new blood coming in, including Joe Todaro Sr., who was known by the nickname Lead Pipe Joe and was Joseph Todaro’s father.

The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated as the last reputed boss, Leonard (The Calzone) Falzone, was ailing. He died in 2016.

The reorganization seemed to begin in 2014.

Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.”

Violi said he beat out 30 other guys to become Underboss, the documents claim. All would have to be “made members” of the Buffalo Family to be considered for the post.



So from the very beginning of this it was admitted that the Buffalo family was withering away but it is clear an effort was made (most likely by Joe Todaro Jr) to bring the organization back. There are 10-15 guys still alive from that 1997 list that most likely isn't a full list and 22 years later it's impossible for the family to have 30 members????

First, let's not pretend Buffalo - whether in 1997 or today - has a large number of members the FBI doesn't know about.

Second, as I said before, there are - at most - 10 members still living from that 1997 list Paul posted. There are also 4 others that aren't on that list but have since been identified as made. That's 14 members.

Another way to look at it is 23 members in 2006. At least 7 have died between 2006 and 2018. That leaves 16 members.

So, looking at the 14-16 member range, Buffalo would have had to make 16-18 new members over the past 13 years to get to 32 members.

From what we know about Buffalo, YES, THAT'S IMPROBABLE AND VERY HARD TO BELIEVE.

I'm not making an argument toward any particular end so I don't know what the "reach" would be. I take Violi's taped comments at face value, as they have been confirmed in court, and I have an agnostic approach as to what his words mean in the context of current Buffalo mafia activities.

Do you have information that suggests the FBI's knowledge of the Buffalo membership was ever comprehensive or close to it? I ask that in earnest, as I have been researching the Buffalo group quite a bit in the last few years and I haven't seen anything from any era that suggests they had comprehensive member identifications at any point. To be fair, I'm less familiar with the 1980s and 90s, but much of the foundation of the FBI's membership counts are drawn from the 1960s. Each decade of FBI investigation doesn't exist in a vaccuum and much of it is based on building on previous information. Because the FBI was missing identities for more than half of the alleged membership in the 1960s, they were missing a large part of that foundation. Again, I don't know what sources of information the FBI had in more recent decades and I'm not trying to prove anything. This is a vital part of the discussion, plain and simple -- weigh it out how you want.

The NYC mafia also had extensive cooperation from member informants and witnesses from multiple families from the early 1960s up to present day, who could in turn identify members of different families as well as their own, during that period you refer to. NYC built solid foundations thanks to their sources in the 1960s and have continued to be at the absolute top of the game when it comes to identifying mafia members, but even then I've never seen an NYC FBI member list where every suspected member is identified/confirmed. I'm not familiar enough with Chicago to comment on them. Again, FBI offices and their sources/knowledge vary dramatically.

The Buffalo family historically had members in the following areas:
- Buffalo
- Niagara Falls
- Hamilton
- Toronto
- Erie
- Rochester
- Utica
- Syracuse
- Albany
- Youngstown
- NYC (one Utica member)
- Boston (one Utica member)

Naturally there were some members in smaller nearby towns as well.

Given what we know about the FBI's in-house Intel on the LCN, it's delusional to think there are a large number of members unaccounted for. The feds had Buffalo at 45 members in 1989. How likely is it there was a lot more members than that at the time? They had the family at 23 members in 2006. Does anyone really believe a bunch of guys were still flying under the radar at that point?

Furthermore, if the family was substantially larger than thought, that begs the question even more - why so little activity?

[Lupara]

They had the family at 23 members in 2006. Does anyone really believe a bunch of guys were still flying under the radar at that point.

Paul says about 30 in 2006 (I guess he includes the Canadian crew given his own expertise).

From the 23 members listed in 2006, are there any Canadians included? If not, that would bring the numbers close to 30, which in turn is comparable with Violi's statement. A bunch of guys may have died since and a bunch were made in recent years so that would mean they have similar numbers today.

[B.]

I don't have answers to hypothetical questions. Activity can't be measured and any attempts to apply a measurement system (i.e. rate of indictments) is flawed. Indictments and FBI statements about their decreased/limited activity should absolutely be part of the conversation, I don't disagree with that, but they are not absolute tools of measurement. Cosa Nostra structure is not dependent on criminal activity itself, either, so that false analog is out the window.

The FBI, to the best of my knowledge and research, did not have a complete view of the Buffalo organization in any of the information I've found. As evidenced in my recent Montreal thread, Canadian LE was not particularly helpful in providing membership information to the FBI, so that was and seemingly still is a large question mark in addition to the blank spaces in the FBI's knowledge of the US membership. If the FBI didn't know who a large number of members were in the 1970s, I'm not confident that their later membership counts (assuming they explicitly said these numbers included the total membership in the FBI's estimation) were complete. In a conversation where we are splitting hairs about 30 members remaining of a family that was once 125 strong, several overlooked members is not insignificant.

I hope as more information becomes available on the Buffalo family (meaning the Magaddino organization regardless of location), we learn more. Whether that gives us a better picture of their decay or gives us some glimpse at a small, but nonetheless active family I don't know and don't care. I want to have an honest and objective discussion about the Buffalo group, past and present, but this topic has been deeply personalized by a number of members and the anger brings down the quality of the board immensely. Be mindful of that no matter who you are.

[AntComello]

Calling yourself antcommello loooool

I am a 2nd cousin of ant

[B.]

Anthony Comello was hired by Buffalo to kill Frank Cali for trying to gain influence in Canada. Period.

[Angelo Santino]

I don't have answers to hypothetical questions. Activity can't be measured and any attempts to apply a measurement system (i.e. rate of indictments) is flawed. Indictments and FBI statements about their decreased/limited activity should absolutely be part of the conversation, I don't disagree with that, but they are not absolute tools of measurement. Cosa Nostra structure is not dependent on criminal activity itself, either, so that false analog is out the window.

The FBI, to the best of my knowledge and research, did not have a complete view of the Buffalo organization in any of the information I've found. As evidenced in my recent Montreal thread, Canadian LE was not particularly helpful in providing membership information to the FBI, so that was and seemingly still is a large question mark in addition to the blank spaces in the FBI's knowledge of the US membership. If the FBI didn't know who a large number of members were in the 1970s, I'm not confident that their later membership counts (assuming they explicitly said these numbers included the total membership in the FBI's estimation) were complete. In a conversation where we are splitting hairs about 30 members remaining of a family that was once 125 strong, several overlooked members is not insignificant.

I hope as more information becomes available on the Buffalo family (meaning the Magaddino organization regardless of location), we learn more. Whether that gives us a better picture of their decay or gives us some glimpse at a small, but nonetheless active family I don't know and don't care. I want to have an honest and objective discussion about the Buffalo group, past and present, but this topic has been deeply personalized by a number of members and the anger brings down the quality of the board immensely. Be mindful of that no matter who you are.

This.

[Wiseguy]

Paul says about 30 in 2006 (I guess he includes the Canadian crew given his own expertise).

From the 23 members listed in 2006, are there any Canadians included? If not, that would bring the numbers close to 30, which in turn is comparable with Violi's statement. A bunch of guys may have died since and a bunch were made in recent years so that would mean they have similar numbers today.

The 2006 chart is very redacted so it's hard to tell. And the article that mentioned the FBI making the chart didn't list all 23 members. It simply said there was a boss, underboss, consigliere, 4 captains, and 16 soldiers.

And where did we get the idea that "a bunch were made in recent years?" The more I read the posts by some of you, the more I see your conclusions rest on a mountain of hypotheticals.

Activity can't be measured and any attempts to apply a measurement system (i.e. rate of indictments) is flawed.

Indictments, or lack of them, over an extended period of time have proven one of the best ways to measure activity. Do you think it's just happenstance that we see a lot of cases in New York, much less in Chicago, and none in San Francisco?

Indictments and FBI statements about their decreased/limited activity should absolutely be part of the conversation, I don't disagree with that, but they are not absolute tools of measurement. Cosa Nostra structure is not dependent on criminal activity itself, either, so that false analog is out the window.

We've been through this academic argument before. Theoretically, a family could sit around and do nothing - or be completely legitimate for that matter - and still be a family. But in practical terms, that's not how it works.

The FBI, to the best of my knowledge and research, did not have a complete view of the Buffalo organization in any of the information I've found. As evidenced in my recent Montreal thread, Canadian LE was not particularly helpful in providing membership information to the FBI, so that was and seemingly still is a large question mark in addition to the blank spaces in the FBI's knowledge of the US membership. If the FBI didn't know who a large number of members were in the 1970s, I'm not confident that their later membership counts (assuming they explicitly said these numbers included the total membership in the FBI's estimation) were complete. In a conversation where we are splitting hairs about 30 members remaining of a family that was once 125 strong, several overlooked members is not insignificant.

That you have to go back to the 1970s to make your point says something. It was the 1980s that the feds really started getting comprehensive intel on the mob on a national basis. And it's only gotten better through the years.

I hope as more information becomes available on the Buffalo family (meaning the Magaddino organization regardless of location), we learn more. Whether that gives us a better picture of their decay or gives us some glimpse at a small, but nonetheless active family I don't know and don't care. I want to have an honest and objective discussion about the Buffalo group, past and present, but this topic has been deeply personalized by a number of members and the anger brings down the quality of the board immensely. Be mindful of that no matter who you are.

If you're expecting a bunch more news to be coming out about Buffalo LCN (on either side of the border), I think you're going to be disappointed.

[Lupara]

Anthony Comello was hired by Buffalo to kill Frank Cali for trying to gain influence in Canada. Period.

You just lost all credibility. Just like that.

[gohnjotti]

I agree that rate of indictments are a good measurement of activity, but there’s also the law enforcement side of the equation. Rate of indictments are directly responsive to law enforcement pressure. If Buffalo’s Organized Crime Squad were to receive a huge slash in budgeting, other examples show that there would be an equally responsive drop in cases, regardless of the family’s organised crime activity.

For example, look at the New York Mafia’s budget cuts. Following 2011’s “Mafia Takedown Day” and the ensuing budget cuts (the New York Mafia FBI Squads’ budgets were cut to more than half of what they were), there was a remarkable drop in FBI cases against the Colombo crime family. That’s not because the family altogether dropped its organized crime presence. Evidence shows they instituted a new hierarchy with new making ceremonies following 2011. But the FBI stopped pursuing cases, and paused their active hierarchy investigations that began in the 1990s and ended in 2012. Prior to 2011, the FBI’s specific Colombo Squad cultivated low-level informers who either agreed to testify to wired up on the streets, and the FBI - aided by wiretaps and bugs - were able to work their way up to the hierarchy. But after 2011, the FBI has not actively cultivated informants. You might say, “well Gohn, there have been informers against the Colombo family since then.” And you’d be right. But all informers post-2011 were not prodded or pushed; they sought out the FBI themselves to cooperate, such as Luca DiMatteo’s shakedown victim and Jerry Ciauri’s loansharking victim.

If rate of indictments were influenced solely by a family’s activity, then one would think that the Colombo family went from being a powerful criminal enterprise in 2011 to a withered crew of street thugs only a few years later. Instead, I think the rate of indictments correlates more accurately with the FBI budgets/priorities, and that should always be a huge factor when you’re looking at a family’s activity.

I probably sound like a broken record when I tie everything to the Colombo family, but you can look at a similar lack of Bonanno family cases in the 1980s and 1990s, after the FBI decided to merge the Bonanno family squad with the Colombo Squad due to their perception that the Bonanno family posed less of a threat after they were kicked off the Commission. As the Bonanno family faced less and less indictments than their peers, their activity actually INCREASED, and they grew from the weakest of New York’s Five Families to the second strongest.

Indictments are not a given. Yes, the FBI will pressure a family more if the family is more active, but budgets and federal priorities are an equally big factor.