Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Pogo The Clown]

Right it is just my word. It is not the Buffalo FBI Field Office, the National FBI, NY State and local OC investigators and Federal OC prosecutors saying it. What ever Canadian LE might say they are not in the position to have a better grasp of what is going on in Buffalo than all of the above combined.


And what exactly did the RCMP say? That there are Todaro family members active in Canada? We knew that already. Have they said anything about the membership, structure and activities on the US side?


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

It is not the Buffalo FBI Field Office,

Correct. The Buffalo FBI office has not released a statement cornering Buffalo LCN post the Violi revelations.

[Pogo The Clown]

Nor have they on the other 9 families I mentioned. So I take it we can assume they have also changed their position on the viability of these families as well?


Pogo

[Fughedaboutit]

Right it is just my word. It is not the Buffalo FBI Field Office, the National FBI, NY State and local OC investigators and Federal OC prosecutors saying it. What ever Canadian LE might say they are not in the position to have a better grasp of what is going on in Buffalo than all of the above combined.


And what exactly did the RCMP say? That there are Todaro family members active in Canada? We knew that already. Have they said anything about the membership, structure and activities on the US side?


Pogo

Nobody cares about your word. All these years you ride the cock of the reports, now that they do not agree with you, we are to take your word? LMAO...I dont think so.

[Pogo The Clown]

Surprise. The guy with a room temperature IQ, and evidently no reading comprehension skills, jumps in to stir the pot and of course add nothing to the discussion.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

Nor have they on the other 9 families I mentioned. So I take it we can assume they have also changed their position on the viability of these families as well?


Pogo

I knew this was going to be invoked. I don't think asking for a response regarding the recent RCMP findings is the same as asking that they reconfirm every family they labeled defunct. That's not the same thing at all. Sonny made a great point that the FBI has yet to comment on it. I would think if it was 100% false they would have no problem reconfirming that, instead there's been no comment. Maybe it's a case of no reporter with an in with the Buffalo FBI office asking or maybe they're not commenting for a reason. I see no benefit to them announcing: "We were wrong in our assessment, we are adding 10 new agents to our Buffalo office and Joe Todaro has become our number one target in WNY." I'm confident we're going to get a definitive answer in time, confirming or denying its existence. If and when if turns out its BS I'm fully prepared to admit that I was wrong, period, no buts. Would you guys be able to do the same if it goes the other way? Sure, there'd be some posters who couldn't help getting in a jab at your being wrong but the mature ones wouldn't. I wouldn't ask you to eat crow but I would ask you to consider in the future, the importance of mafia culture and what they consider to be what. Not as a replacement or a invalidation for the Viability Theory but as an extra lens to view things through. It's useful in understanding how and why a Joe Loose, D'Elia etc can be recognized as bosses. Anatomy and Physiology, go hand in hand but they're not the same thing.

[Fughedaboutit]

AGAIN, the FBI come out tomorrow stating ‘despite the Violi tapes there is no operational LCN family in Buffalo’ I’ll be the first to bury Buffalo as an operational enterprise.
But. They. Haven’t.


Pogo, the FBI HAS NOT released it’s position on Buffalo post Violi.
That’s the fucking point of the issue here.

As soon as they do, this all goes to bed.

Well that is a near impossible standard to set. In the last 20 years we have seen LCN members and Associates busted in KC, Rochester, Scranton, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Tampa, New Orleans, Rockford and even Dallas. In none of these instances can I recall the FBI releasing a statement afterwards saying that they still considered these families defunct. So why would they release a statement about a Hamilton based member busted by Canadian authorities?


As for the Violi revelations that case was a joint investigation involving the FBI. Morena was informing and wired up since 2014 (or was it 2013). So stands to reason that his information regarding Hamilton-Violi would have been known to the FBI when they declared Buffalo finished in 2017.


According to the hype Buffalo started "resurging" in 2014. So again how believable is it that when the Feds were making that statement in 2017 there had in fact been a structured viable family with all these members operating right under their noses for 4 years without them even having the smallest whiff about it? Even with Morena wired up in Canada?


We are now into the 7th year of this supposed Buffalo resurgence with these supposed 20 new made members running around and we still haven't seen any real LCN cases out of Buffalo. How many more years have to pass before we write it off as the usual hype?


Pogo

Yeah nobody cares.

[Fughedaboutit]

Surprise. The guy with a room temperature IQ, and evidently no reading comprehension skills, jumps in to stir the pot and of course add nothing to the discussion.


Pogo

Just watching you get destroyed is enough for me, and the fact you are too dumb to see it makes it so much better.

[Angelo Santino]

AGAIN, the FBI come out tomorrow stating ‘despite the Violi tapes there is no operational LCN family in Buffalo’ I’ll be the first to bury Buffalo as an operational enterprise.
But. They. Haven’t.


Pogo, the FBI HAS NOT released it’s position on Buffalo post Violi.
That’s the fucking point of the issue here.

As soon as they do, this all goes to bed.

Well that is a near impossible standard to set. In the last 20 years we have seen LCN members and Associates busted in KC, Rochester, Scranton, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Tampa, New Orleans, Rockford and even Dallas. In none of these instances can I recall the FBI releasing a statement afterwards saying that they still considered these families defunct. So why would they release a statement about a Hamilton based member busted by Canadian authorities?


As for the Violi revelations that case was a joint investigation involving the FBI. Morena was informing and wired up since 2014 (or was it 2013). So stands to reason that his information regarding Hamilton-Violi would have been known to the FBI when they declared Buffalo finished in 2017.


According to the hype Buffalo started "resurging" in 2014. So again how believable is it that when the Feds were making that statement in 2017 there had in fact been a structured viable family with all these members operating right under their noses for 4 years without them even having the smallest whiff about it? Even with Morena wired up in Canada?


We are now into the 7th year of this supposed Buffalo resurgence with these supposed 20 new made members running around and we still haven't seen any real LCN cases out of Buffalo. How many more years have to pass before we write it off as the usual hype?


Pogo

Yeah nobody cares.

I care. Please don't do this here, you want to motherfuck each other, do it in the Sit.
viewforum.php?f=38

[gohnjotti]

Have they said anything about the membership, structure and activities on the US side?


Pogo

The RCMP hasn’t “said” anything about membership because Violi did it for him, even if what he said was an estimate or exaggeration. He said “30 guys.” He beat out 30 guys for the position of underboss in the Todaro crime family, according to him. Morena, who knows Todaro family members and has a solid grasp of their activities, did not probe further into the “30 guys” comment (at least they haven’t released any tapes to indicate that) so we can imagine that he is also under the impression, for whatever reason, that the US-based Todaro crime family, whose administration has historically been US-based until recently, had approximately 30 guys, or within that ballpark.

Regarding “structure.” Prosecutors, from the Morena tapes, announced in court that Leonard Falzone reorganised the family somewhat in 2014, and that there is at least one captain in Canada, so we can assume there is at least one captain in Buffalo unless Joe Jr. is directly in charge of them. Prosecutors also alleged that other crime families in NY were contacted about the promotion, indicating that there is a structure in place that allows for communication between high-ranking organised crime figures in NY. I doubt Vincent LoScalzo or some other defunct boss could reach out to the bosses in NY. So that’s some structure there, as well as enough of a structure to allow for one making ceremony, and other planned making ceremony in the works.

Regarding activities. The RCMP did not allege any crimes on the US side. Why? Because Morena wasn’t in Buffalo. He wasn’t on name to name basis with Todaro. He didn’t know what was happening in the actual city unless Violi told him. And, in the life, people don’t usually go around blabbering about crimes that other people are committing, like “such and such is a big time shylock, such and such is my coke guy in Buffalo.” Or, maybe Violi did blabbermouth but it wasn’t included in the tapes cited by prosecutors because it wasn’t relevant to the RCMP’s case.

[gohnjotti]

Also, NickleCity is dropping some HEAT. Good info, incredibly interesting stuff about the 2007 murder and how deep these connections in Buffalo run.

Also, unlike Fughettaboutit and a couple other posters, I am not out to shut Pogo or Wiseguy down and belittle them. They’re viewing things from a different lense, and they could easily be correct. Prosecutorial misconduct happens all the time, so the prosecutors in Canada could easily be jumping to conclusions, and the National Post could have also gotten things mixed up along the way in their interpretation.

Or, Violi was overhyping Buffalo’s significance to legitimatise his position with his Bonanno pals. He doesn’t want to be looked down upon as a chief with no Indians, right?

But, with all of that in mind, I’m still taking what Canadian prosecutors say as fact, for now, because if we can’t trust LE to separate fact from fiction, then a lot of what we know about the Canadian mob can be called into question.

[Pogo The Clown]

Nor have they on the other 9 families I mentioned. So I take it we can assume they have also changed their position on the viability of these families as well?


Pogo

I knew this was going to be invoked. I don't think asking for a response regarding the recent RCMP findings is the same as asking that they reconfirm every family they labeled defunct. That's not the same thing at all. Sonny made a great point that the FBI has yet to comment on it. I would think if it was 100% false they would have no problem reconfirming that, instead there's been no comment. Maybe it's a case of no reporter with an in with the Buffalo FBI office asking or maybe they're not commenting for a reason. I see no benefit to them announcing: "We were wrong in our assessment, we are adding 10 new agents to our Buffalo office and Joe Todaro has become our number one target in WNY." I'm confident we're going to get a definitive answer in time, confirming or denying its existence. If and when if turns out its BS I'm fully prepared to admit that I was wrong, period, no buts. Would you guys be able to do the same if it goes the other way? Sure, there'd be some posters who couldn't help getting in a jab at your being wrong but the mature ones wouldn't. I wouldn't ask you to eat crow but I would ask you to consider in the future, the importance of mafia culture and what they consider to be what. Not as a replacement or a invalidation for the Viability Theory but as an extra lens to view things through. It's useful in understanding how and why a Joe Loose, D'Elia etc can be recognized as bosses. Anatomy and Physiology, go hand in hand but they're not the same thing.

What's the difference? In the above examples LCN busts occurred after they had declared those families dead. They didn't come out after those busts to reaffirm that they still considered them defunct so why would they all of a sudden do so for the Buffalo bust? Especially considering that the bust was in Canada and by Candain LE.


Also everyone keeps forgetting that in 2019 (2 years after the Violi bust) a long Buffalo LCN prosecutor as well as a long time investigator (the one who elicited the Feds 2017 confirmation in the first place) both said Buffalo was still dead. Both have contacts with the Buffalo Field Office so you would think they would have heard in those 2 years if the Feds had done a sudden reversal on their view of the family.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

What's the difference? In the above examples LCN busts occurred after they had declared those families dead. They didn't come out after those busts to reaffirm that they still considered them defunct so why would they all of a sudden do so for the Buffalo bust? Especially considering that the bust was in Canada and by Candain LE.

What's the difference? Rochester maybe being an exception, what other group considered defunct reemerged in another case a decade later with an admin and links to other groups? LA? SF? Denver? I don't recall there being a precedent for this.

Also everyone keeps forgetting that in 2019 (2 years after the Violi bust) a long Buffalo LCN prosecutor as well as a long time investigator (the one who elicited the Feds 2017 confirmation in the first place) both said Buffalo was still dead. Both have contacts with the Buffalo Field Office so you would think they would have heard in those 2 years if the Feds had done a sudden reversal on their view of the family.


Pogo

I don't know their background, but like I keep saying, it's their organization and its going to run regardless of what outsiders think of them. It's not as if Zannochio refused to meet with Buffalo citing the FBI's defunct list as a reason.

[Pogo The Clown]

But, with all of that in mind, I’m still taking what Canadian prosecutors say as fact, for now, because if we can’t trust LE to separate fact from fiction, then a lot of what we know about the Canadian mob can be called into question.

Don't think the RCMP or prosecutors made those claims. Read the article that started this. It clear from the wording that reorganization, resurgence and 30 made members are the words of the writers based on their own interpretations and speculation.


https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sh ... falo-mafia

What's the difference? Rochester maybe being an exception, what other group considered defunct reemerged in another case a decade later with an admin and links to other groups? LA? SF? Denver? I don't recall there being a precedent for this.

Rochester is the prime example. You had a Boss, an induction ceremony, a drug ring with ties to the Bonannos, ties to Cleveland members, etc years after the Feds wrote off the family. Almost a carbon copy of what we are discussing now. But I don't recall the Feds releasing any statement after the Marotta case to reaffirm that their position was the family was still defunct.


In the Scranton and Rockford case you had Bosses indicted. Both with ties to members in other families. No statement after those cases either that I can recall. If they didn't release statements after any of these busts why would they suddenly do so for Buffalo especially when it was a Canadian busts by Canadian LE?


Pogo

[johnny_scootch]

The actual words from Violi's mouth hold substantially more weight than whatever the FBI has or hasn't said multiplied by everything Wiseguy and Pogo read on the internet.

How is there still an argument about them having an administration!?! Todaro Jr is clearly the boss, Violi was/is the underboss, Rocco Luppino is a captain .........who here disputes that?

As far as expanding the family....they had made Dom and were looking to make Joe and Cece. One could assume there were probably more candidates besides them. There are still lots of Italians up there in the communities surrounding Buffalo, a recruitment pool still exists.

There are still a dozen or so members we know about on the American side but how active they are is up for debate but the fact that they are alive and still members is not. Keep in mind there are most likely several members we don't know about.

They're in business with multiple families in America and Canada with direct contact to the so called 'Commission'.

So to sum it up they have an Admin, they still have a membership body, they are still making members, they still do business and they are still in contact with and recognized by other families.

What more do you need to be considered a functioning family? The blessing of the FBI !?!