Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[maxiestern11]

If I had to place a wager either way. I’d put my money on there being a formal structure indeed..... a small structure for sure. Not anywhere near what it was at the height of their power. But an “entity” none the less.
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Boss, Underboss, Consigleire, a few captains, and 15-20 indicted soldiers. Total of maybe 20+\- membership.
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Quite possibly most of them being in the Canadian side. But still obligated to the Bonanno crew in NYC.
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Drugs mostly, gambling/shy, and whatever else they do up that way.
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I DO NOT believe that they are completely defunct! By no means!
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And I don’t care how many “arrests” or investigations there may or may not be....they’ve been in the ropes, obviously worse than most crews in the US. But their breathing. The induction ceremony a year or so ago conducted by Damiano Zummo alone proves it out I think.

[Angelo Santino]

If and when it comes out definitively that the entity known as the Buffalo LCN, whether it amounts to 5 or 30 members, is back as an active enterprise, the tune is going to change. Buffalo's attention from the press and law enforcement seems to coincides with its reconstitution which validates the argument that a groups' activeness correlates with its legal issues.

We, in the US, aren't accustomed to Mafia groups being formed/disbanded at ease since nearly all of them, Rochester aside, have survived intact since the 1920's. We look at the Gambinos or Philadelphia as age-old institutions and in many ways they are. It's not like the Mafia in Sicily, which at various points due to external factors would disband (unform the groups) and undergo a restructuring, sometimes splitting groups, forming new groups, dissolving others. For what it's worth, the Mafia model doesn't form easily, it requires a necessary biosphere and newly formed groups are usually built on the foundations of what existed prior. If Buffalo was located in Sicily, its potential resurgence from an inactive state wouldn't be controversial and its boss Todaro would likely live in close to Palermo to be in the political center of it all leaving underlings to run his interests in his designated city.

America isn't Sicily, but like I said prior, it's their organization, we don't get to tell them what we think constitutes what. William D'elia was the only member active in the Scranton Family and was treated by both the Colombos and Philadelphia (a tough city to get involved with politically) as an intermediary boss. If in some alternative reality D'Elia was around today as a so-called boss, people would dispute that citing Scranton's zero remaining members and any arguments about his dealings with Philadelphia and New York would be discounted. If D'Elia happened, Buffalo is very possible, thirty members or five.

If and when? You talk like you're expecting some kind of definitive evidence that Buffalo is back as an active enterprise will actually come forth. While your point about us not "getting to tell [the mob] what constitutes what" is one of the stronger arguments, allow me to unburden you of any futile expectations or unnecessary anxiety. Here's what's going to happen...

Time will march on, as it always does. The local press in and around Buffalo will lose interest, move on, and the question of "Is the Buffalo Mob back?" will fade away. As more time goes by without any of the expected earth-shattering revelations, certain people will start to become confused. Even, dare we say, disappointed. This will lead to them increasingly grasping - even more so than they're doing now - at any shred of news regarding Buffalo, no matter how small or insignificant, as evidence that the Buffalo resurgence is still real. That the 2017 drug bust, Violi being made underboss, etc. weren't just anomalies. That there's more to Buffalo than the remnants we see in other cities. Others will contend that those 30 Buffalo members, much like their brethren in Detroit, have learned to avoid law enforcement and remain active in the shadows. Yeah, that's got to be it. Some will hold out longer than others. Some will act like they never really cared in the first place. That it was just a passing interest. But eventually, we'll be 14 years down the road, like we currently are after the 2006 Detroit gambling bust. And like Detroit, by then even the currently most convinced among us - assuming they'll still be around - will have been reduced to crickets. Chirp...chirp...chirp. The silence will be deafening. And then, at some point, we'll get a new poster on the forum who will start a thread asking what ever happened with Buffalo. Far from the tune changing, it will be the same sad old song we've seen and heard time and again.

Buffalo is no longer a what-if at this point. Its been documented in court transcripts, wiretaps, documented interaction with New York, indictments of individuals alleged to be associated with said entity. In fact the weight now falls on those to argue it is not currently active. Drawing back to D'Elia, he had very little activity going on in the last decade he was active, less than what Buffalo is being alluded to having now, but he was still a boss. Like I said, their organization, we are merely observers.

Back when Joe Ligambi was Mr. Machiavellian Mafioso, people were shocked, in disbelief (and disappointed?) to learn that his underboss wasn't the savor flaire mafioso Staino (George A: "Some people say he's the real underboss" - Yeah, you, George) but instead Marty Angelina. Marty the fuck up, the drunk, the guy who got his ass handed to him by his girlfriend. Just what the fuck was Uncle Joe thinking? This wasn't the move of the man people had created inside their own heads. In the end, the facts win out. We can all speculate on what Uncle Joe- a man none of us have ever met personally- was thinking but it changes nothing.

Do you think that perhaps this argument has gone beyond whats being discussed on its face to represent some larger argument and that's what's being defended? For the past ten years Pogo and yourself have waged a war on unchecked claims regarding non-NY families. Posters, going off of Rick Porello's AM site write ups from the early 2000's sought to interpret a city's silence as a group operating "under the radar." You guys turned over those stones to shed light on it and cleaned up much of it, making some bitter enemies along the way who took things beyond the realm of factual debate into personal attacks. It seems like you're taking the stance that to acknowledge Buffalo is to declare fault in your logic when it's not. To the contrary it supports and validates your theory, gives credence to the fact that no group is getting away "under the radar."

We're going to have to agree to disagree, respectfully. But if and when more information comes out from more sources, as a highly intelligent researcher who deals in facts, you owe it to yourself to reevaluate Buffalo based off of the last several years. Salut.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Do you think that perhaps this argument has gone beyond whats being discussed on its face to represent some larger argument and that's what's being defended? For the past ten years Pogo and yourself have waged a war on unchecked claims regarding non-NY families. Posters, going off of Rick Porello's AM site write ups from the early 2000's sought to interpret a city's silence as a group operating "under the radar." You guys turned over those stones to shed light on it and cleaned up much of it, making some bitter enemies along the way who took things beyond the realm of factual debate into personal attacks. It seems like you're taking the stance that to acknowledge Buffalo is to declare fault in your logic when it's not. To the contrary it supports and validates your theory, gives credence to the fact that no group is getting away "under the radar."

We're going to have to agree to disagree, respectfully. But if and when more information comes out from more sources, as a highly intelligent researcher who deals in facts, you owe it to yourself to reevaluate Buffalo based off of the last several years. Salut.

Bingo to paragraph one.

Bingo to paragraph two.

[maxiestern11]

Agreed!.... makes sense. There is “something” there. In fact, way more than just something. They are an “entity”!

[Wiseguy]

It must be your goal in life to belittle anyone dare say a smaller family is still an active family. Christie made some very valid points.

You wouldn't know a valid point if it kicked you in the nuts. I have yet to see you make any.

I don't think anyone here would really give a shit if it does turn out this was an 'anomaly'. That's not even the point.

Oh, some people absolutely give a shit. They'll die before they admit it - because they realize how ridiculous it sounds - but they do.

Gee wiz you must be fun at a party

Depends on the party.

Do you think that perhaps this argument has gone beyond whats being discussed on its face to represent some larger argument and that's what's being defended? For the past ten years Pogo and yourself have waged a war on unchecked claims regarding non-NY families. Posters, going off of Rick Porello's AM site write ups from the early 2000's sought to interpret a city's silence as a group operating "under the radar." You guys turned over those stones to shed light on it and cleaned up much of it, making some bitter enemies along the way who took things beyond the realm of factual debate into personal attacks. It seems like you're taking the stance that to acknowledge Buffalo is to declare fault in your logic when it's not. To the contrary it supports and validates your theory, gives credence to the fact that no group is getting away "under the radar."

I'm taking the stance that, to acknowledge Buffalo is to:

A) Ignore the FBI and other law enforcement. You'd think people would be slower to do this after what we've seen over the years but nope.

B) Ignore general trends. Not just the lack of activity in Buffalo for 20 years but, comparatively speaking, the state of families in New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago.

C) Ignore the improbability of a family like Buffalo making 20 members over a decade.

D) Ignore similar examples in other cities where nobody is contending a family is still active.

Buffalo is no longer a what-if at this point. Its been documented in court transcripts, wiretaps, documented interaction with New York, indictments of individuals alleged to be associated with said entity. In fact the weight now falls on those to argue it is not currently active. Drawing back to D'Elia, he had very little activity going on in the last decade he was active, less than what Buffalo is being alluded to having now, but he was still a boss. Like I said, their organization, we are merely observers.

You change the argument entirely above, from what it has been, and I will say it's a stronger one than what others have put forth. I would say, yes, we are observers. If we were in the mob, we might have to go by those rules. But we're not. We have more freedom to stand back and decide what approach captures the most accurate view of things. Protocol may have meant D'Elia was still recognized. But, for all intents and purposes, the family was gone. Buffalo may still have some members with certain ranks, and some activity as of late, but not necessarily anything that would set it apart from other cities where there are only remnants and nobody is arguing about.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, respectfully. But if and when more information comes out from more sources, as a highly intelligent researcher who deals in facts, you owe it to yourself to reevaluate Buffalo based off of the last several years. Salut.

Depends on the information and sources.

If we actually saw significant ongoing activity that could be directly tied to the Buffalo mob, and/or a more solid information about an actual working hierarchy, I would have to take those kinds of things into consideration.

What I'm not interested in is a couple loosely-connected guys getting popped for selling weed, a retired DEA agent indicted for taking bribes from unknown "Italian organized crime" figures, a strip club owner getting arrested, or any other desperate and inconclusive horseshit.

[Moscone65]

You could be a bit more open minded and friendly with your arguments. Ok you are in one side of the fence but you could be a little more friendly. The way you argue isn’t good, and one day, if the feds come out and say there is a family in buffalo, then your gonna be made a mockery of. Let’s just get it straight from here: what are your requirements to acknowledge an active buffalo crime family? State them for the record here

[Angelo Santino]

Do you think that perhaps this argument has gone beyond whats being discussed on its face to represent some larger argument and that's what's being defended? For the past ten years Pogo and yourself have waged a war on unchecked claims regarding non-NY families. Posters, going off of Rick Porello's AM site write ups from the early 2000's sought to interpret a city's silence as a group operating "under the radar." You guys turned over those stones to shed light on it and cleaned up much of it, making some bitter enemies along the way who took things beyond the realm of factual debate into personal attacks. It seems like you're taking the stance that to acknowledge Buffalo is to declare fault in your logic when it's not. To the contrary it supports and validates your theory, gives credence to the fact that no group is getting away "under the radar."

I'm taking the stance that, to acknowledge Buffalo is to:

A) Ignore the FBI and other law enforcement. You'd think people would be slower to do this after what we've seen over the years but nope.

B) Ignore general trends. Not just the lack of activity in Buffalo for 20 years but, comparatively speaking, the state of families in New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago.

C) Ignore the improbability of a family like Buffalo making 20 members over a decade.

D) Ignore similar examples in other cities where nobody is contending a family is still active.

A) If the FBI, in the next several years comes out and states "The Buffalo LCN Family was reconstituted"... will that be enough for you? Simple yes or no.

B) Trends are not definitive. I've laid out that the early mafia was very much birds of a feather with Palermitans being with the Gambinos, interiors being with the Corleonese and Trapanese being Bonannos. And yet, if that was 100% definitive Luciano and Lucchese would have been Gambinos and Masseria a Bonanno. They were not, and that fact doesn't discount the trends that I laid out. What it does it show that it wasn't a rule but a natural occurrence given they recruit through interpersonal relationships IE relatives and close associates.

C) That's your improbability. Philadelphia made 6 members in a year up in New England. And before you jump to "Oh great, we are comparing Buffalo to Philadelphia" we're not. It doesn't require capital to induct new members and that is one of the few examples we have of a family expanding rapidly in an year they previously didn't exist. They didn't send Philadelphia manpower to NE, they made people already active there as Philly members.

D) I think you're ignoring just how lucrative Canada is and Buffalo is less than 50 minutes from heavily Italian/Mafia dominated action. Other cities like Pittsburgh or Cleveland or Tampa or LA don't have anything like that developing that the Italians have a presence in. Maybe if Tijuana had a larger Italian presence long-term like Toronto and Hamilton and there was a need for an LCN representation there, maybe LA would be reconstituted. The mob is economy-based.

Buffalo is no longer a what-if at this point. Its been documented in court transcripts, wiretaps, documented interaction with New York, indictments of individuals alleged to be associated with said entity. In fact the weight now falls on those to argue it is not currently active. Drawing back to D'Elia, he had very little activity going on in the last decade he was active, less than what Buffalo is being alluded to having now, but he was still a boss. Like I said, their organization, we are merely observers.

You change the argument entirely above, from what it has been, and I will say it's a stronger one than what others have put forth. I would say, yes, we are observers. If we were in the mob, we might have to go by those rules. But we're not. We have more freedom to stand back and decide what approach captures the most accurate view of things. Protocol may have meant D'Elia was still recognized. But, for all intents and purposes, the family was gone. Buffalo may still have some members with certain ranks, and some activity as of late, but not necessarily anything that would set it apart from other cities where there are only remnants and nobody is arguing about.

I didn't change the argument, I presented another wing of it. It wasn't a factor to its members that the Scranton family had one member boss, Philadelphia and NY dealt with him as if he had 10000 members under him. Our definitions of what constitutes a group is ours alone. I think it's egotistical to suggest otherwise.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, respectfully. But if and when more information comes out from more sources, as a highly intelligent researcher who deals in facts, you owe it to yourself to reevaluate Buffalo based off of the last several years. Salut.

What I'm not interested in is a couple loosely-connected guys getting popped for selling weed, a retired DEA agent indicted for taking bribes from unknown "Italian organized crime" figures, a strip club owner getting arrested, or any other desperate and inconclusive horseshit.

No one said you should take an interest. But if you are taking an interest in evaluating Buffalo and what its status is, the open minded person would factor recent events. Salut.

[TommyNoto]

Agreed!.... makes sense. There is “something” there. In fact, way more than just something. They are an “entity”!

I believe Canadian authorities have already stated the Tudaro family exists and given the situation in Canada they likely have excellent sources.

My guess is they are working with Canada ( especially with DEA on payroll ) on moving drugs into NY with Bonnano / Gambino’s

Like us the Feds might not know what to call it , so used Italian Organized Crime in their most recent indictment/ investigations. Seems like a bunch of family working together to secure drug routes.

[johnny_scootch]

If we actually saw significant ongoing activity that could be directly tied to the Buffalo mob, and/or a more solid information about an actual working hierarchy, I would have to take those kinds of things into consideration.

What I'm not interested in is a couple loosely-connected guys getting popped for selling weed, a retired DEA agent indicted for taking bribes from unknown "Italian organized crime" figures, a strip club owner getting arrested, or any other desperate and inconclusive horseshit.

You left out the Violi case where the Boss, Underboss and a captain were IDed with activity directly tied to the Buffalo family plus interaction with the Bonanno family and other families in NY.

[maxiestern11]

Agreed!.... makes sense. There is “something” there. In fact, way more than just something. They are an “entity”!

I believe Canadian authorities have already stated the Tudaro family exists and given the situation in Canada they likely have excellent sources.

My guess is they are working with Canada ( especially with DEA on payroll ) on moving drugs into NY with Bonnano / Gambino’s

Like us the Feds might not know what to call it , so used Italian Organized Crime in their most recent indictment/ investigations. Seems like a bunch of family working together to secure drug routes.

That makes sense Tommy.

[maxiestern11]

Do you think that perhaps this argument has gone beyond whats being discussed on its face to represent some larger argument and that's what's being defended? For the past ten years Pogo and yourself have waged a war on unchecked claims regarding non-NY families. Posters, going off of Rick Porello's AM site write ups from the early 2000's sought to interpret a city's silence as a group operating "under the radar." You guys turned over those stones to shed light on it and cleaned up much of it, making some bitter enemies along the way who took things beyond the realm of factual debate into personal attacks. It seems like you're taking the stance that to acknowledge Buffalo is to declare fault in your logic when it's not. To the contrary it supports and validates your theory, gives credence to the fact that no group is getting away "under the radar."

I'm taking the stance that, to acknowledge Buffalo is to:

A) Ignore the FBI and other law enforcement. You'd think people would be slower to do this after what we've seen over the years but nope.

B) Ignore general trends. Not just the lack of activity in Buffalo for 20 years but, comparatively speaking, the state of families in New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago.

C) Ignore the improbability of a family like Buffalo making 20 members over a decade.

D) Ignore similar examples in other cities where nobody is contending a family is still active.

A) If the FBI, in the next several years comes out and states "The Buffalo LCN Family was reconstituted"... will that be enough for you? Simple yes or no.

B) Trends are not definitive. I've laid out that the early mafia was very much birds of a feather with Palermitans being with the Gambinos, interiors being with the Corleonese and Trapanese being Bonannos. And yet, if that was 100% definitive Luciano and Lucchese would have been Gambinos and Masseria a Bonanno. They were not, and that fact doesn't discount the trends that I laid out. What it does it show that it wasn't a rule but a natural occurrence given they recruit through interpersonal relationships IE relatives and close associates.

C) That's your improbability. Philadelphia made 6 members in a year up in New England. And before you jump to "Oh great, we are comparing Buffalo to Philadelphia" we're not. It doesn't require capital to induct new members and that is one of the few examples we have of a family expanding rapidly in an year they previously didn't exist. They didn't send Philadelphia manpower to NE, they made people already active there as Philly members.

D) I think you're ignoring just how lucrative Canada is and Buffalo is less than 50 minutes from heavily Italian/Mafia dominated action. Other cities like Pittsburgh or Cleveland or Tampa or LA don't have anything like that developing that the Italians have a presence in. Maybe if Tijuana had a larger Italian presence long-term like Toronto and Hamilton and there was a need for an LCN representation there, maybe LA would be reconstituted. The mob is economy-based.

Buffalo is no longer a what-if at this point. Its been documented in court transcripts, wiretaps, documented interaction with New York, indictments of individuals alleged to be associated with said entity. In fact the weight now falls on those to argue it is not currently active. Drawing back to D'Elia, he had very little activity going on in the last decade he was active, less than what Buffalo is being alluded to having now, but he was still a boss. Like I said, their organization, we are merely observers.

You change the argument entirely above, from what it has been, and I will say it's a stronger one than what others have put forth. I would say, yes, we are observers. If we were in the mob, we might have to go by those rules. But we're not. We have more freedom to stand back and decide what approach captures the most accurate view of things. Protocol may have meant D'Elia was still recognized. But, for all intents and purposes, the family was gone. Buffalo may still have some members with certain ranks, and some activity as of late, but not necessarily anything that would set it apart from other cities where there are only remnants and nobody is arguing about.

I didn't change the argument, I presented another wing of it. It wasn't a factor to its members that the Scranton family had one member boss, Philadelphia and NY dealt with him as if he had 10000 members under him. Our definitions of what constitutes a group is ours alone. I think it's egotistical to suggest otherwise.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, respectfully. But if and when more information comes out from more sources, as a highly intelligent researcher who deals in facts, you owe it to yourself to reevaluate Buffalo based off of the last several years. Salut.

What I'm not interested in is a couple loosely-connected guys getting popped for selling weed, a retired DEA agent indicted for taking bribes from unknown "Italian organized crime" figures, a strip club owner getting arrested, or any other desperate and inconclusive horseshit.

No one said you should take an interest. But if you are taking an interest in evaluating Buffalo and what its status is, the open minded person would factor recent events. Salut.

Very intelligent argument Chris

[B.]

Only commenting on the likelihood of them being able to induct ~20 members in ten years:

- Buffalo was the largest family outside of NYC at their peak: 125 members according to Magaddino himself on his office bug, the majority of whom have never been identified. I lean completely on the conservative side here and say they were never able to replace these members or maintain anything close to this size over time; it was simply their peak. However, that doesn't negate the fact that they had a larger recruitment pool than most other US families excluding NYC/NJ. No doubt this pool dwindled to a trickle, but a trickle in a family of their historical size could still account for handfuls of new recruits here and there.

- The Magaddino group had one of the largest territories of any US family, including a large Italian-American population centered in Buffalo/NF that still exists today. Many of these Italian-Americans come from the same towns in Sicily and a look at current social and business relationships shows that even in the legitimate world the current generations have remained close-knit and have continued to intermarry. There is certainly a foundation for recruitment and there is no requirement that members be full-on criminals. Remember that Rochester inducted a college professor and while I'm not saying the Buffalo family has padded its small membership (~30 is small for a group that peaked at 125) with an army of legitimate professionals, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some variation in the backgrounds of their potential recruits, especially given that the current boss himself is wholly invested in his image as a successful legitimate businessman.

- There is the possibility that the few remaining Rochester members returned to Buffalo. We discussed earlier how Rochester was never Commission-sanctioned as their own family and there was at least one example in the 1980s of a Rochester member returning to Buffalo. While not substantial, even a few Rochester members or newer recruits from Rochester are significant when splitting hairs about ~30 members in a fairly large territory.

- The high activity level of the Canadian group suggests there could be more members there than have been currently accounted for. The FBI has generally relied on Canadian LE for information on Canadian figures, but Canada has had limited member sources and a much different process, as well as different goals for investigating the mafia. Canadian LE emphasizes criminal and business relationships and not so much the formal affiliations of its members. This distinction is important, as we don't know the extent of the historic Canadian membership of the Buffalo family nor all of the current members. I don't believe there is an "army" of Canadian members filling out the ranks, but like with Rochester, even a few unaccounted members is consequential when splitting hairs over ~30 members. For comparisons sake, too, the FBI appears to have had difficulty identifying the 20 members of the Bonanno Montreal crew at virtually every era of their existence despite the cooperation of high-level Bonanno members in NYC.

- Analysis of earlier FBI estimates and charts assumes that all previous living members were accounted for. While I trust that the FBI knew the majority of active members, even two or three unaccounted for or unconfirmed members is substantial when we are again splitting hairs over ~30 members. Regarding confirmation, the FBI requires multiple sources of confirmation to list a member as "made", which is an important aspect of this discussion, too. The FBI will not put an unconfirmed member on a public chart or list if they don't have corroboration from multiple sources, so just because a member wasn't listed on a chart doesn't mean the FBI was unaware of them, but it does mean the FBI has to use caution when identifying someone as a member. There are multiple layers to the process of these LE estimates, lists, and charts, and taking them simply at face value isn't an effective way to study them.

--

It is not difficult to believe the Buffalo family piece-mealed together 30 total members, including those already accounted for by the FBI, when considering the above points.

Also, this post is not addressed to anyone in particular -- it is simply a collection of points I find relevant and interesting to the discussion of underboss Domenico Violi's recorded statement that there are ~30 current members of the former Magaddino organization.

[Wiseguy]

You could be a bit more open minded and friendly with your arguments. Ok you are in one side of the fence but you could be a little more friendly.

Chalk it up to PTSD, I suppose.

The way you argue isn’t good, and one day, if the feds come out and say there is a family in buffalo, then your gonna be made a mockery of.

Let's just say I'm not losing any sleep over the (non-existent) possibility of the feds doing a 180 and saying there's a family in Buffalo. That some people are apparently expecting this could actually happen is dumbfounding.

Let’s just get it straight from here: what are your requirements to acknowledge an active buffalo crime family? State them for the record here

Well, as I said above, there's the (non-existent) possibility of the FBI again recognizing a family there. But even then, there would have to be ongoing cases to support that. After all, as much stock as I put in what the feds say, I put even more stock in what they do. It's why I leaned toward those sources that no longer recognized Detroit while others did. The lack of cases was the deciding factor.

Beyond that, there's the two main criteria that we see in a viable family - a formal working hierarchy and ongoing activity. So far, I see neither with Buffalo.

Here's what a Buffalo chart would look like:

Boss: a retired guy who makes pizza all day.

|

Underboss: a drug dealer who was made in 2015 and then promoted to underboss not long afterward. That should tell you something right there.

|

Captain: a newly named captain of the Canadian crew (consisting of who, again?)

|

About a dozen soldiers in Buffalo, most in their 70's and 80's and apparently retired. Also about 20 phantom soldiers.

A) If the FBI, in the next several years comes out and states "The Buffalo LCN Family was reconstituted"... will that be enough for you? Simple yes or no.

See above.

B) Trends are not definitive. I've laid out that the early mafia was very much birds of a feather with Palermitans being with the Gambinos, interiors being with the Corleonese and Trapanese being Bonannos. And yet, if that was 100% definitive Luciano and Lucchese would have been Gambinos and Masseria a Bonanno. They were not, and that fact doesn't discount the trends that I laid out. What it does it show that it wasn't a rule but a natural occurrence given they recruit through interpersonal relationships IE relatives and close associates.

Given enough time, and with enough examples, they are.

C) That's your improbability. Philadelphia made 6 members in a year up in New England. And before you jump to "Oh great, we are comparing Buffalo to Philadelphia" we're not. It doesn't require capital to induct new members and that is one of the few examples we have of a family expanding rapidly in an year they previously didn't exist. They didn't send Philadelphia manpower to NE, they made people already active there as Philly members.

I would say that example from Philadelphia is, itself, an anomaly. Some members there or not, the Philadelphia family has no real presence in New England. But yes, there is a difference between Philadelphia making a half dozen guys and Buffalo making 20. That anyone thinks it's possible for a family like Buffalo to make nearly as many guys as they had 14 years ago is proof enough they don't pay attention.

D) I think you're ignoring just how lucrative Canada is and Buffalo is less than 50 minutes from heavily Italian/Mafia dominated action. Other cities like Pittsburgh or Cleveland or Tampa or LA don't have anything like that developing that the Italians have a presence in. Maybe if Tijuana had a larger Italian presence long-term like Toronto and Hamilton and there was a need for an LCN representation there, maybe LA would be reconstituted. The mob is economy-based.

Canada has always been right next door. Did the Buffalo family forget it was there for two decades and then suddenly remember again? As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to bet the 2017 drug bust and the few Hamilton murders we saw are more representative of the Canadian underworld than anything in Buffalo.

I didn't change the argument, I presented another wing of it. It wasn't a factor to its members that the Scranton family had one member boss, Philadelphia and NY dealt with him as if he had 10000 members under him. Our definitions of what constitutes a group is ours alone. I think it's egotistical to suggest otherwise.

That's why I defer to the feds. Don't take my word for it.

No one said you should take an interest. But if you are taking an interest in evaluating Buffalo and what its status is, the open minded person would factor recent events. Salut.

I factor in everything. But, while factoring in recent events of the last few years, I don't forget general trends of the last 20 years. Context is everything here and too many seem to be completely unaware of it.

I believe Canadian authorities have already stated the Tudaro family exists and given the situation in Canada they likely have excellent sources.

They referred to the "Todaro Crime family." The FBI referred to the "Smaldone crime family" in the 1980's when there was almost nothing left. It's a formal designation and not necessarily representative of the actual state of things.

My guess is they are working with Canada ( especially with DEA on payroll ) on moving drugs into NY with Bonnano / Gambino’s

It appears some Canadian members of the family were doing so before they were busted. Some members of the Marcello family were busted with the Gambinos and Genovese back in 1994 when there was no real New Orleans family left.

Like us the Feds might not know what to call it , so used Italian Organized Crime in their most recent indictment/ investigations. Seems like a bunch of family working together to secure drug routes.

If we see another case like the one in 2017, perhaps we can start talking about Buffalo working with the NY families to move drugs. But, thus far, the 2017 bust was a one-off.

You left out the Violi case where the Boss, Underboss and a captain were IDed with activity directly tied to the Buffalo family plus interaction with the Bonanno family and other families in NY.

See applicable Buffalo chart above. Also see past examples of essentially defunct families interacting with those from New York.

Only commenting on the likelihood of them being able to induct ~20 members in ten years:

- Buffalo was the largest family outside of NYC at their peak: 125 members according to Magaddino himself on his office bug, the majority of whom have never been identified. I lean completely on the conservative side here and say they were never able to replace these members or maintain anything close to this size over time; it was simply their peak. However, that doesn't negate the fact that they had a larger recruitment pool than most other US families excluding NYC/NJ. No doubt this pool dwindled to a trickle, but a trickle in a family of their historical size could still account for handfuls of new recruits here and there.

No need to go all the way back to Magaddino.

45 members in 1989.

23 members by 2006.

10 more dead between 2006 and 2017 when Violi made his 30 member comment.

- The Magaddino group had one of the largest territories of any US family, including a large Italian-American population centered in Buffalo/NF that still exists today. Many of these Italian-Americans come from the same towns in Sicily and a look at current social and business relationships shows that even in the legitimate world the current generations have remained close-knit and have continued to intermarry. There is certainly a foundation for recruitment and there is no requirement that members be full-on criminals. Remember that Rochester inducted a college professor and while I'm not saying the Buffalo family has padded its small membership (~30 is small for a group that peaked at 125) with an army of legitimate professionals, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some variation in the backgrounds of their potential recruits, especially given that the current boss himself is wholly invested in his image as a successful legitimate businessman.

Again, why wasn't this recruiting pool tapped into for 20 years as the membership continually dwindled?

- There is the possibility that the few remaining Rochester members returned to Buffalo. We discussed earlier how Rochester was never Commission-sanctioned as their own family and there was at least one example in the 1980s of a Rochester member returning to Buffalo. While not substantial, even a few Rochester members or newer recruits from Rochester are significant when splitting hairs about ~30 members in a fairly large territory.

Seriously?

- The high activity level of the Canadian group suggests there could be more members there than have been currently accounted for. The FBI has generally relied on Canadian LE for information on Canadian figures, but Canada has had limited member sources and a much different process, as well as different goals for investigating the mafia. Canadian LE emphasizes criminal and business relationships and not so much the formal affiliations of its members. This distinction is important, as we don't know the extent of the historic Canadian membership of the Buffalo family nor all of the current members. I don't believe there is an "army" of Canadian members filling out the ranks, but like with Rochester, even a few unaccounted members is consequential when splitting hairs over ~30 members.

Going with this, one would have to believe there are twice as many members of the family in Canada as there are on the U.S. side now in order to get to the 30+ member figure. Who believes that?

- Analysis of earlier FBI estimates and charts assumes that all previous living members were accounted for. While I trust that the FBI knew the majority of active members, even two or three unaccounted for or unconfirmed members is substantial when we are again splitting hairs over ~30 members. Regarding confirmation, the FBI requires multiple sources of confirmation to list a member as "made", which is an important aspect of this discussion, too. The FBI will not put an unconfirmed member on a public chart or list if they don't have corroboration from multiple sources, so just because a member wasn't listed on a chart doesn't mean the FBI was unaware of them, but it does mean the FBI has to use caution when identifying someone as a member. There are multiple layers to the process of these LE estimates, lists, and charts, and taking them simply at face value isn't an effective way to study them.

Not sure how likely it is them missing any made guys in the 21st century. But even if they were, it wouldn't be anywhere near enough to account for the discrepancy between the 2006 levels, those that died since then, and Violi's figure.

It is not difficult to believe the Buffalo family piece-mealed together 30 total members, including those already accounted for by the FBI, when considering the above points.

That a family, all but dormant for 20 years and no longer recognized by the FBI, one day finds the desire and resources to piece-meal itself back together is not difficult to believe?

[Pogo The Clown]

I would say that example from Philadelphia is, itself, an anomaly. Some members there or not, the Philadelphia family has no real presence in New England. But yes, there is a difference between Philadelphia making a half dozen guys and Buffalo making 20. That anyone thinks it's possible for a family like Buffalo to make nearly as many guys as they had 14 years ago is proof enough they don't pay attention.

What I've said repeatedly about perspective. In the past 22 years Philly, which is still recognized by LE and has shown to be the most active family outside NY, has not even come close to replacing all the members they have lost to attrition. Nevermind actually growing again. Even with the 6-8 making ceremonies they've held.


But we are to be believe that a dormant family like Buffalo, which had been shrinknig for decades, not only replaced all their lost members but actually grew by 1/3 in 10 years? And not only growing but having all these 20 new members and their criminal activity escape the attention of the FBI, state and local LE over a several year span? Isn't it far more likely and realistic that Violi's statement was just a passing comment not be taken at face value?


Pogo

[TommyNoto]

Agreed!.... makes sense. There is “something” there. In fact, way more than just something. They are an “entity”!

I believe Canadian authorities have already stated the Tudaro family exists and given the situation in Canada they likely have excellent sources.

My guess is they are working with Canada ( especially with DEA on payroll ) on moving drugs into NY with Bonnano / Gambino’s

Like us the Feds might not know what to call it , so used Italian Organized Crime in their most recent indictment/ investigations. Seems like a bunch of family working together to secure drug routes.

That makes sense Tommy.

https://www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca/eng/tra/tr/15a.html


This is a pretty decent article , Project OTremens used over 150 police officers involving large quantity of drugs . It was a major task force. Interesting they left Hamilton LE out of it for fear they have been bought off.

It seems Canada LE focused on the Hamilton / Buffalo area while FBI handled Bonnano / Gambino elements which makes sense

Add in the recent made man bust, DEA agent bust and the big weed bust and things sure look interesting in Buffalo again

200 kilo coke , 40 kilo heroin, 260k pills is not small time IMO, they seem to be moving weight