Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[B.]

For the record, wasn't it an in-person recording the CI Bonanno soldier made of Violi? Not that the "format" of the conversation is important given the same people were having the same discussion either way.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone about any aspect of this story, but here are some "bigger picture" points to consider:

- Prior to the taped conversation between the CI and Violi, Violi had attended the CI's taped induction ceremony with a number of Bonanno members, which indicates Violi had been introduced as a made member to the Bonanno members prior to this induction taking place.

- This initial introduction between Violi and the NYC Bonanno members would require someone who had already been introduced to both parties, suggesting there were several stages of contact between Buffalo-Ontario and the Bonanno family leading up to the recorded events (i.e. Zummo and co didn't arrive in Ontario, look up Violi in the phone book and say "What's up, we're the Bonanno family, and like my boy Tony Testa said, 'WHO U WIT???').

- The person who introduced Violi to the NYC Bonanno members as a made member also had to have been formally introduced to them by yet another member at some point prior, and so on the pattern goes. There had to be some form of sustained formal contact between Buffalo-Ontario members and Bonanno members in order for the proper introductions to have taken place when and how they did. This doesn't mean business, this doesn't mean anything elaborate, only that there were living members of both families who could make the proper membership introductions between these newer members of both groups. It's been said by at least one CW that this "introduction via third party" rule is the most followed rule in Cosa Nostra.

- This implication of sustained contact between Buffalo-Ontario and NYC gives credence to Violi's recorded claim that Todaro had contacted New York about his promotion. We have seen similar accounts of smaller families contacting NYC over underboss promotions, too -- Scarfo contacted New York to ask for their approval in promoting his nephew to underboss. This may have been a different time period, but the same considerations seem to have been in place, similar to how the rules of modern Cosa Nostra are almost identical to what they were in the past.

- Violi certainly isn't a random wannabe, but a longtime organized crime figure with a deep pedigree on both sides of his family. He described meeting with top Montreal figures as well, so in addition to forming a relationship with NYC Bonanno members he was in contact with figures historically linked to the Bonanno family in Montreal, where his father once held rank. It would not have served him to lie about his promotion given the network of people he was operating with, the range of their knowledge, and the seriousness of their roles in organized crime. As a Canadian mafia leader, this seriousness should be given extra weight given the murderously violent nature of the Canadian underworld before and after Violi's promotion.

- It is easy to think of Morena as some hack because we know in hindsight he was a CI, but he had served lengthy prison time, formed a reputation with a tough group of people in NYC during his youth, and had an international background like many Canadian figures. We don't know the exact reason he moved to Canada or why the Bonanno family would induct a new member in Ontario, especially one from NYC. What's clear is they wanted him to be involved with local figures in the Buffalo-Ontario family once he was there and clearly made effort to facilitate that at their own expense.

- Morena was also introduced to a "boss and underboss from Italy" connected to the Gambino family by Sicilian faction Gambino soldier Paul Semplice. Semplice has an Agrigento background like many Canadian mafiosi, though it may just be a coincidence. What doesn't seem to be a coincidence is that Morena was introduced to multiple high-ranking international mafia members by different mafia members who didn't know that he was a CI, indicating that Morena was a trusted and reputable mafia figure well-placed within the network he was part of. With this in mind, it seems unlikely that the information Violi shared with Morena was significantly untruthful given Morena's status and relationship to other mafia figures, including figures both Violi and Morena knew.

No doubt there was more conversation obtained during the taped induction ceremony than has been made public and Morena must have reported other details that haven't been released, as is the case with any CI/CW. Hopefully we learn more, as that is the only thing I am interested in related to this subject.

[CabriniGreen]

Let me ask..... when Montagna met with " Hamilton", you think he met a Luppino then, not the Violi brothers?

Cause I dont think they were made then....

The Violis seem to have been respected figures long before they were made....

[CabriniGreen]

Like, do you believe Mirarchi doesnt, or didnt know Montagna was made, even if HE himself isnt made?

[AntComello]

For the record, wasn't it an in-person recording the CI Bonanno soldier made of Violi? Not that the "format" of the conversation is important given the same people were having the same discussion either way.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone about any aspect of this story, but here are some "bigger picture" points to consider:

- Prior to the taped conversation between the CI and Violi, Violi had attended the CI's taped induction ceremony with a number of Bonanno members, which indicates Violi had been introduced as a made member to the Bonanno members prior to this induction taking place.

- This initial introduction between Violi and the NYC Bonanno members would require someone who had already been introduced to both parties, suggesting there were several stages of contact between Buffalo-Ontario and the Bonanno family leading up to the recorded events (i.e. Zummo and co didn't arrive in Ontario, look up Violi in the phone book and say "What's up, we're the Bonanno family, and like my boy Tony Testa said, 'WHO U WIT???').

- The person who introduced Violi to the NYC Bonanno members as a made member also had to have been formally introduced to them by yet another member at some point prior, and so on the pattern goes. There had to be some form of sustained formal contact between Buffalo-Ontario members and Bonanno members in order for the proper introductions to have taken place when and how they did. This doesn't mean business, this doesn't mean anything elaborate, only that there were living members of both families who could make the proper membership introductions between these newer members of both groups. It's been said by at least one CW that this "introduction via third party" rule is the most followed rule in Cosa Nostra.

- This implication of sustained contact between Buffalo-Ontario and NYC gives credence to Violi's recorded claim that Todaro had contacted New York about his promotion. We have seen similar accounts of smaller families contacting NYC over underboss promotions, too -- Scarfo contacted New York to ask for their approval in promoting his nephew to underboss. This may have been a different time period, but the same considerations seem to have been in place, similar to how the rules of modern Cosa Nostra are almost identical to what they were in the past.

- Violi certainly isn't a random wannabe, but a longtime organized crime figure with a deep pedigree on both sides of his family. He described meeting with top Montreal figures as well, so in addition to forming a relationship with NYC Bonanno members he was in contact with figures historically linked to the Bonanno family in Montreal, where his father once held rank. It would not have served him to lie about his promotion given the network of people he was operating with, the range of their knowledge, and the seriousness of their roles in organized crime. As a Canadian mafia leader, this seriousness should be given extra weight given the murderously violent nature of the Canadian underworld before and after Violi's promotion.

- It is easy to think of Morena as some hack because we know in hindsight he was a CI, but he had served lengthy prison time, formed a reputation with a tough group of people in NYC during his youth, and had an international background like many Canadian figures. We don't know the exact reason he moved to Canada or why the Bonanno family would induct a new member in Ontario, especially one from NYC. What's clear is they wanted him to be involved with local figures in the Buffalo-Ontario family once he was there and clearly made effort to facilitate that at their own expense.

- Morena was also introduced to a "boss and underboss from Italy" connected to the Gambino family by Sicilian faction Gambino soldier Paul Semplice. Semplice has an Agrigento background like many Canadian mafiosi, though it may just be a coincidence. What doesn't seem to be a coincidence is that Morena was introduced to multiple high-ranking international mafia members by different mafia members who didn't know that he was a CI, indicating that Morena was a trusted and reputable mafia figure well-placed within the network he was part of. With this in mind, it seems unlikely that the information Violi shared with Morena was significantly untruthful given Morena's status and relationship to other mafia figures, including figures both Violi and Morena knew.

No doubt there was more conversation obtained during the taped induction ceremony than has been made public and Morena must have reported other details that haven't been released, as is the case with any CI/CW. Hopefully we learn more, as that is the only thing I am interested in related to this subject.

Good fucking break down...I think everything you said is very possible and it all makes sense we just need a little more information. I still don’t get how some people won’t accept that Buffalo is active and making some pretty good money under the radar. I don’t believe a word the government says...like ever so maybe I’m a little bias but something big is going on up there

[B.]

I have no thoughts on money or anything I can't judge from what's publicly available, only that some kind of mechanism has been kept in place to allow formal contact between newer generations of members in Buffalo-Ontario and the NYC Bonanno family, as evidenced by the glimpse we've had into Morena's cooperation.

[TommyNoto]

Especially when factoring in all the good evidence work done by NC, Gotti, B.

IMO we are at the abundance of evidence on IOC statis / activity in Buffalo

Yeah let's just totally ignore the direct statements from the head of the Buffalo FBI in 2017 and 2 former federal prosecutors in 2019.


Pogo

Who said I was ignoring that . I don’t want to get in a discussion with you as your mind is set.

I absolutely take that into account , who wouldn’t ? I dunno know, maybe it’s stale info ,but I never heard the 2019 ?

Why wouldn’t they FBI say there is no Buffalo mob at the PC.

The most recent FBI statement is what’s in the indictment . Active IOC in western district of NY selling over 1k kilos and paying off DEA agent and the IOC investigation is still on going - straight from the DOJ mouth . That’s the last statement we have from the FBI.

My only guess on IOC reference is they still don’t know who is calling the shots.

[TommyNoto]

Link to video of WKBW newscast. It appears their I-team had broke the story.
https://youtu.be/TSN3MZcx1GA

Very interesting . Especially the part about Kennedy saying investigation into IOC is on going.

As we know It’s the FBI and / or DEA that handles the Investigation work for DOJ. The DOJ could of just as easily said there is NO Buffalo Mafia activity but actually went the other route is saying IOC exists in Buffalo and more investigations need to be done “on what it is” ( last part is speculation by me bit why else say IOC investigations are on going ?)

We should have a definitive answer on IOC activity in Buffalo in the near future. Obviously some here will disagree which is fine but to me a 1,000 kilo distribution arm would reach my threshold
Of legit mafia activity

We have gotten a definitive answer. You and others just don't want to accept it. The head of the FBI's criminal division could hold a press conference tomorrow, specifically and unequivocally state the Buffalo mob is finished, and you guys would look for reasons to ignore him. Why? Because you find the alternative more exciting. Yay!

And, if IOC members are moving that kind of weight in the region, it's not what's left of the Buffalo mob.

Let's just totally forget the statements made by a made member about Buffalo's remaining status and activity. How can some asshole from within know it better than the authorities on the outside?

Law enforcement + Lack of cases + Demonstrable membership decline > Violi's phone call

Your actually off , the head of Buffalo FBI was part of last weeks PC announcing IOC activity in Western District of NY and an ongoing investigation in IOC. That’s from the FBI

[TommyNoto]

For the record, wasn't it an in-person recording the CI Bonanno soldier made of Violi? Not that the "format" of the conversation is important given the same people were having the same discussion either way.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone about any aspect of this story, but here are some "bigger picture" points to consider:

- Prior to the taped conversation between the CI and Violi, Violi had attended the CI's taped induction ceremony with a number of Bonanno members, which indicates Violi had been introduced as a made member to the Bonanno members prior to this induction taking place.

- This initial introduction between Violi and the NYC Bonanno members would require someone who had already been introduced to both parties, suggesting there were several stages of contact between Buffalo-Ontario and the Bonanno family leading up to the recorded events (i.e. Zummo and co didn't arrive in Ontario, look up Violi in the phone book and say "What's up, we're the Bonanno family, and like my boy Tony Testa said, 'WHO U WIT???').

- The person who introduced Violi to the NYC Bonanno members as a made member also had to have been formally introduced to them by yet another member at some point prior, and so on the pattern goes. There had to be some form of sustained formal contact between Buffalo-Ontario members and Bonanno members in order for the proper introductions to have taken place when and how they did. This doesn't mean business, this doesn't mean anything elaborate, only that there were living members of both families who could make the proper membership introductions between these newer members of both groups. It's been said by at least one CW that this "introduction via third party" rule is the most followed rule in Cosa Nostra.

- This implication of sustained contact between Buffalo-Ontario and NYC gives credence to Violi's recorded claim that Todaro had contacted New York about his promotion. We have seen similar accounts of smaller families contacting NYC over underboss promotions, too -- Scarfo contacted New York to ask for their approval in promoting his nephew to underboss. This may have been a different time period, but the same considerations seem to have been in place, similar to how the rules of modern Cosa Nostra are almost identical to what they were in the past.

- Violi certainly isn't a random wannabe, but a longtime organized crime figure with a deep pedigree on both sides of his family. He described meeting with top Montreal figures as well, so in addition to forming a relationship with NYC Bonanno members he was in contact with figures historically linked to the Bonanno family in Montreal, where his father once held rank. It would not have served him to lie about his promotion given the network of people he was operating with, the range of their knowledge, and the seriousness of their roles in organized crime. As a Canadian mafia leader, this seriousness should be given extra weight given the murderously violent nature of the Canadian underworld before and after Violi's promotion.

- It is easy to think of Morena as some hack because we know in hindsight he was a CI, but he had served lengthy prison time, formed a reputation with a tough group of people in NYC during his youth, and had an international background like many Canadian figures. We don't know the exact reason he moved to Canada or why the Bonanno family would induct a new member in Ontario, especially one from NYC. What's clear is they wanted him to be involved with local figures in the Buffalo-Ontario family once he was there and clearly made effort to facilitate that at their own expense.

- Morena was also introduced to a "boss and underboss from Italy" connected to the Gambino family by Sicilian faction Gambino soldier Paul Semplice. Semplice has an Agrigento background like many Canadian mafiosi, though it may just be a coincidence. What doesn't seem to be a coincidence is that Morena was introduced to multiple high-ranking international mafia members by different mafia members who didn't know that he was a CI, indicating that Morena was a trusted and reputable mafia figure well-placed within the network he was part of. With this in mind, it seems unlikely that the information Violi shared with Morena was significantly untruthful given Morena's status and relationship to other mafia figures, including figures both Violi and Morena knew.

No doubt there was more conversation obtained during the taped induction ceremony than has been made public and Morena must have reported other details that haven't been released, as is the case with any CI/CW. Hopefully we learn more, as that is the only thing I am interested in related to this subject.

Very thorough and sound logic

Especially the intro , this is not a couple guys just winging up a meeting . Plus was likely a strategy meeting before hand ( especially the NY Bonnanos ) . The NY connection interests me , especially since it’s likely to involve drugs

[Wiseguy]

Why not just leave everyone in fantasy land?

If people want to believe everything Violi said in that call is an absolute fact that's their prerogative.

You've made your position abundantly clear time and time again so why not just back off?

Fantasy land is what GBB is for.

Violi certainly isn't a random wannabe, but a longtime organized crime figure with a deep pedigree on both sides of his family. He described meeting with top Montreal figures as well, so in addition to forming a relationship with NYC Bonanno members he was in contact with figures historically linked to the Bonanno family in Montreal, where his father once held rank. It would not have served him to lie about his promotion given the network of people he was operating with, the range of their knowledge, and the seriousness of their roles in organized crime. As a Canadian mafia leader, this seriousness should be given extra weight given the murderously violent nature of the Canadian underworld before and after Violi's promotion.

Nobody said he was lying about being made underboss. We are saying that that people shouldn't read too much into that title considering the state of the family. We also said that people shouldn't be too eager to take his "30 guys" comment at face value considering what we know about the decline in membership for years now.

I still don’t get how some people won’t accept that Buffalo is active and making some pretty good money under the radar. I don’t believe a word the government says...like ever so maybe I’m a little bias but something big is going on up there

You sound as nutty as the guy you named your handle after.

Who said I was ignoring that . I don’t want to get in a discussion with you as your mind is set.

I absolutely take that into account , who wouldn’t ? I dunno know, maybe it’s stale info ,but I never heard the 2019 ?

Why wouldn’t they FBI say there is no Buffalo mob at the PC.

The most recent FBI statement is what’s in the indictment . Active IOC in western district of NY selling over 1k kilos and paying off DEA agent and the IOC investigation is still on going - straight from the DOJ mouth . That’s the last statement we have from the FBI.

My only guess on IOC reference is they still don’t know who is calling the shots.

Are you kidding me? How many times are they supposed to specifically comment on the state of the Buffalo LCN? If they don't say something every other week, you guys take that as a sign they've changed their minds.

Your actually off , the head of Buffalo FBI was part of last weeks PC announcing IOC activity in Western District of NY and an ongoing investigation in IOC. That’s from the FBI

The head of the FBI criminal division is higher up than the local Buffalo SAC. Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is.

[SonnyBlackstein]

@B: Outstanding post.

[TommyNoto]

Why not just leave everyone in fantasy land?

If people want to believe everything Violi said in that call is an absolute fact that's their prerogative.

You've made your position abundantly clear time and time again so why not just back off?

Fantasy land is what GBB is for.

Violi certainly isn't a random wannabe, but a longtime organized crime figure with a deep pedigree on both sides of his family. He described meeting with top Montreal figures as well, so in addition to forming a relationship with NYC Bonanno members he was in contact with figures historically linked to the Bonanno family in Montreal, where his father once held rank. It would not have served him to lie about his promotion given the network of people he was operating with, the range of their knowledge, and the seriousness of their roles in organized crime. As a Canadian mafia leader, this seriousness should be given extra weight given the murderously violent nature of the Canadian underworld before and after Violi's promotion.

Nobody said he was lying about being made underboss. We are saying that that people shouldn't read too much into that title considering the state of the family. We also said that people shouldn't be too eager to take his "30 guys" comment at face value considering what we know about the decline in membership for years now.

I still don’t get how some people won’t accept that Buffalo is active and making some pretty good money under the radar. I don’t believe a word the government says...like ever so maybe I’m a little bias but something big is going on up there

You sound as nutty as the guy you named your handle after.

Who said I was ignoring that . I don’t want to get in a discussion with you as your mind is set.

I absolutely take that into account , who wouldn’t ? I dunno know, maybe it’s stale info ,but I never heard the 2019 ?

Why wouldn’t they FBI say there is no Buffalo mob at the PC.

The most recent FBI statement is what’s in the indictment . Active IOC in western district of NY selling over 1k kilos and paying off DEA agent and the IOC investigation is still on going - straight from the DOJ mouth . That’s the last statement we have from the FBI.

My only guess on IOC reference is they still don’t know who is calling the shots.

Are you kidding me? How many times are they supposed to specifically comment on the state of the Buffalo LCN? If they don't say something every other week, you guys take that as a sign they've changed their minds.

Your actually off , the head of Buffalo FBI was part of last weeks PC announcing IOC activity in Western District of NY and an ongoing investigation in IOC. That’s from the FBI

The head of the FBI criminal division is higher up than the local Buffalo SAC. Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is.

Pal the DOJ is the top org in the country , they over see all the investigation agencies, FBI , DEA , Customs, Immigration and have far more reach and scope than the FBI alone , including better international capabilities. Nothing happens without the DOJ say so on the Fed level.

Ill take that over someone further down the LE food chain but that’s just me.

We will find out soon

[Lupara]

Why not just leave everyone in fantasy land?

If people want to believe everything Violi said in that call is an absolute fact that's their prerogative.

You've made your position abundantly clear time and time again so why not just back off?

Fantasy land is what GBB is for.

Violi certainly isn't a random wannabe, but a longtime organized crime figure with a deep pedigree on both sides of his family. He described meeting with top Montreal figures as well, so in addition to forming a relationship with NYC Bonanno members he was in contact with figures historically linked to the Bonanno family in Montreal, where his father once held rank. It would not have served him to lie about his promotion given the network of people he was operating with, the range of their knowledge, and the seriousness of their roles in organized crime. As a Canadian mafia leader, this seriousness should be given extra weight given the murderously violent nature of the Canadian underworld before and after Violi's promotion.

Nobody said he was lying about being made underboss. We are saying that that people shouldn't read too much into that title considering the state of the family. We also said that people shouldn't be too eager to take his "30 guys" comment at face value considering what we know about the decline in membership for years now.

I still don’t get how some people won’t accept that Buffalo is active and making some pretty good money under the radar. I don’t believe a word the government says...like ever so maybe I’m a little bias but something big is going on up there

You sound as nutty as the guy you named your handle after.

Who said I was ignoring that . I don’t want to get in a discussion with you as your mind is set.

I absolutely take that into account , who wouldn’t ? I dunno know, maybe it’s stale info ,but I never heard the 2019 ?

Why wouldn’t they FBI say there is no Buffalo mob at the PC.

The most recent FBI statement is what’s in the indictment . Active IOC in western district of NY selling over 1k kilos and paying off DEA agent and the IOC investigation is still on going - straight from the DOJ mouth . That’s the last statement we have from the FBI.

My only guess on IOC reference is they still don’t know who is calling the shots.

Are you kidding me? How many times are they supposed to specifically comment on the state of the Buffalo LCN? If they don't say something every other week, you guys take that as a sign they've changed their minds.

Your actually off , the head of Buffalo FBI was part of last weeks PC announcing IOC activity in Western District of NY and an ongoing investigation in IOC. That’s from the FBI

The head of the FBI criminal division is higher up than the local Buffalo SAC. Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is.

Pal the DOJ is the top org in the country , they over see all the investigation agencies, FBI , DEA , Customs, Immigration and have far more reach and scope than the FBI alone , including better international capabilities. Nothing happens without the DOJ say so on the Fed level.

Ill take that over someone further down the LE food chain but that’s just me.

We will find out soon

2017 was the year Buffalo called it quits. Don't expect any suprises, this isn't Disneyland.

[Wiseguy]

Pal the DOJ is the top org in the country , they over see all the investigation agencies, FBI , DEA , Customs, Immigration and have far more reach and scope than the FBI alone , including better international capabilities. Nothing happens without the DOJ say so on the Fed level.

Ill take that over someone further down the LE food chain but that’s just me.

We will find out soon

No shit, Sherlock. I have a degree in criminal justice so you're not telling me anything I don't know. You keep referencing the DOJ like it helps your case when all that's been referenced is "IOC members."

But, for the sake of argument, let's say those IOC members were connected to Buffalo in some way. The main allegation regarding them is the 1,000 kilos of marijuana that you seem to be so enamored with. Wholesale price, depending on quality, you're looking at what? Maybe $2,500 a kilo? Multiply that by 1,000 kilos = $2.5 million. However, according to the indictment, that's over a 10+ year period. So that averages out to $250,000 a year. A nice business but not exactly major league in the world of drug trafficking. Not even if it was the highest quality and they were making twice that much.

[Moscone65]

james dubro 2.0

[NickleCity]

Pal the DOJ is the top org in the country , they over see all the investigation agencies, FBI , DEA , Customs, Immigration and have far more reach and scope than the FBI alone , including better international capabilities. Nothing happens without the DOJ say so on the Fed level.

Ill take that over someone further down the LE food chain but that’s just me.

We will find out soon

No shit, Sherlock. I have a degree in criminal justice so you're not telling me anything I don't know. You keep referencing the DOJ like it helps your case when all that's been referenced is "IOC members."

But, for the sake of argument, let's say those IOC members were connected to Buffalo in some way. The main allegation regarding them is the 1,000 kilos of marijuana that you seem to be so enamored with. Wholesale price, depending on quality, you're looking at what? Maybe $2,500 a kilo? Multiply that by 1,000 kilos = $2.5 million. However, according to the indictment, that's over a 10+ year period. So that averages out to $250,000 a year. A nice business but not exactly major league in the world of drug trafficking. Not even if it was the highest quality and they were making twice that much.

Just marijuana? Are you sure? Cause that is not what I read in the indictment. I appreciate your position on this discussion, but do try to be accurate.

Screen Shot 2019-11-12 at 11.13.15 AM.png

He conspired to possess and distribute 1000 kilos or more of a mixture and substance containing marijuana, a schedule 1 controlled substance and cocaine, a schedule 2 controlled substance, in violation of Title 21.

Now we can ask a lot of questions about this wording. Do they include both the marijuana and cocaine in the 1000 kilos? I think that is the likely answer and Bongiovanni/his coconspirators added some cocaine to the marijuana for a stronger high? Or one might read this and think that both substances mixed or cut with something else? Of course there is the wording mixture and substance... So did he conspire to sell a mixture, marijuana, and cocaine?

I don't think there is enough information in the indictment to accurately answer these questions, thus the financial conclusions you draw may be true. But they could be way off as well.