Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[B.]

I've either lost it completely or I've found a new big break. Not only is there not a Buffalo mafia family for Joe Todaro to be boss of, there isn't even a Joe Todaro. Domenico Violi's life is like a Canadian bootleg version of Fight Club and he just imagined Joe Todaro. "Dom, you made history" was Violi talking to himself.

[B.]

Ivan and CC, I've known you both for a long time. You're good people, good men, but you say that you met Joe Todaro at his pizzeria. The feds say Joe Todaro doesn't exist. If you think for one second that I'm going to believe your "fresh street talk" about Todaro being a living, breathing person, you can get the fuck out.

[B.]

It's all been a big mistake. Joe Todaro isn't the name of the boss, it's a title. Everyone who becomes boss of the Buffalo family gets called "Joe Todaro". I think we're onto "Joe Todaro IV" by now but who is keeping track? The feds?

[Lupara]

Okay, let's not even get into that shit. I was referring to Magaddino's status on the Commission and influence in national mafia politics, which was a reflection of Buffalo at the time. Buffalo was also central in US mafia politics before Magaddino took over and high-level national meetings were held there in the 1920s through the Castellammarese War. Beyond that, I absolutely will not bring a Chicago argument into this 215 page topic and I was not thinking of them or anything else beyond the point that Buffalo was a political powerhouse in the early mafia.

If you guys turn this into a Buffalo vs. Chicago argument, you will all be legally retarded in my eyes forever.

You brought it up with specifically saying they may have been the largest and most significant family after New York (implying to be above Chicago) so I was genuinly interested what made you believe so. No need to overreact and call me a retard for asking you that question. I wasn't aiming for a Chicago vs. Buffalo debate.

I'm already busy at Summerslam because CC and I are taking on Pogo and Wiseguy for the tag team title. But I promise I'll see your ass at Monday Night Raw. Let's see what you have to say about Chicago then.

Challenge accepted. I'll take my Joe Batters baseball bat with me which I obtained at an auction. It still contains blood stains but the DNA of the victim proved inconclusive so it might by Hoffa's. I'll make sure to use it to beat your La Nova Buffalo family pizza to pulp with shear Chicago power to settle it once and for all.

[Pogo The Clown]

A couple of quotes on the status on the Buffalo Mob from the whole thing:

"We're gonna talk about the death of the mob in Buffalo and it doesn't mean the mob is death elsewhere. Mob families are flourishing, not to degree they once were, but they are flourishing in NYC and there's still some mob activity around the country. I did organized crime cases throughout my career. Less by the end of it, but that was more a product of the fact there was nothing left in Buffalo by the end of it, in terms of organized crime that is."

Anthony M. Bruce

"Finally the federal government got involved, basically took over the union and straightened it out. And if we have to talk about the demise of the Buffalo Mob, I call it the americanization of the Buffalo Mob. The children, the grandchildren, the great-grandchildren of those loyal mafiosi that came over from Italy did not have the same loyalty that their forefathers had for this criminal empire. It dissipated and when the revenue sources dried up, it dissipated even further. That in a simple summary, in my opinion, is why there's no longer mafia presence in Buffalo."

Lee Coppola

About sums it up.

Also interesting is Coppola recounting conversations with several LE officials in the late 1990s about his article on the death of the Buffalo mob. How they didn't like it and how they were pretty much propping the mob up so as not to be reassigned from their current cushy jobs. So as early as the late 1990s we have an example of LE artificially hyping up the Buffalo mob which was on its last leg by then.


It goes back to what I said earlier about LE overhyping a problem in order to keep and or increase their funding. Always spending their full budget because coming in under budget gets their budget slashed in the next budget cycle. The FBIs "budget burners", etc. A clear example of them overhyping LCN.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

Ivan and CC, I've known you both for a long time. You're good people, good men, but you say that you met Joe Todaro at his pizzeria. The feds say Joe Todaro doesn't exist. If you think for one second that I'm going to believe your "fresh street talk" about Todaro being a living, breathing person, you can get the fuck out.

I didn't see him if he was there. It was decent but it really didn't stand out to me as anything special. The food is generic Pizza Parlor takeout with their own cardboard box instead of the stereotypical fat Italian chef with Super Mario stache swinging a pie on the front.

I've seen equal or better pizza parlors owned by Venezuelans. I'm not trashing the place, I'm just trying to put into perspective in the realm of pizza success, he's no Papa Johns with a national chain. I'd consider that or even the Spanish in Florida who own a string of locations to be more VIABLE in the food service industry.

[cavita]

This is my own opinion and since it carries absolutely no weight and I won’t change anyone’s mind, here goes:

I don’t believe everything the FBI says and I don’t feel they are the revered infallible organization they once were. When you have FBI agents crossing the line and working with gangsters as well as other infractions we’ve all heard about in the news the last few years, I can hardly believe everything they say 100% in regards to anything anymore. Do I completely distrust them? Of course not. I do, however, feel they will release “information” as it suits their needs. The problems the FBI has had the last few years has been the exception, not the rule but my belief still stands.

I don’t care what press releases they do in regards to what criminal organizations are threats, etc. because they are in charge of the numbers/information and we all know those can be skewed to make any entity look good or bad. I have FBI files where it states that “this particular investigation and successful prosecution will greatly enhance the Bureau’s reputation.” Clearly the FBI are concerned about their image and numbers.

[B.]

Also interesting is Coppola recounting conversations with several LE officials in the late 1990s about his article on the death of the Buffalo mob. How they didn't like it and how they were pretty much propping the mob up so as not to be reassigned from their current cushy jobs. So as early as the late 1990s we have an example of LE artificially hyping up the Buffalo mob which was on its last leg by then.


It goes back to what I said earlier about LE overhyping a problem in order to keep and or increase their funding. Always spending their full budget because coming in under budget gets their budget slashed in the next budget cycle. The FBIs "budget burners", etc. A clear example of them overhyping LCN.


Pogo

When we get into the idea of LE being dishonest about that, it opens the possibility that they've been dishonest in other ways for other reasons. Manning would seem to agree with you that LE is capable of dishonesty, but his claim was that they now downplay the mob in press releases as they had to shift resources elsewhere. I don't have an opinion on whether LE has been completely honest then or now, as I don't have enough info, but I do think if we're going to use the argument that LE was dishonest at any point we have to acknowledge that their lies could change as circumstances/motivations change.

[Pogo The Clown]

Sure they can be dishonest but it totally goes against the grain and their own self interest for agents to downplay LCN. It would mean being reassigned from their relatively easy and safe jobs of investigating mostly older non-violent White guys and being reassigned to more work heavy and potentially dangerous jobs of investigating some drug cartel, violent street gangs or some suicidal jihadis.


Here have them 20 years ago hyping up an organization that was near death for that very reason (before 911 and any budget cuts). This was reinforced when we look at the pissant cases they were bringing against Buffalo by the early 2000s. Busting associates for shoplifting, a made guy for setting a car on fire for the insurance money, 2 elderly members for running a neighborhood card games out of a social club, etc. Clear examples of budget burner cases. It no doubt got to the point that it was so obviously gone that they just couldn't keep hyping it up anymore.


Pogo

[NickleCity]

Also interesting is Coppola recounting conversations with several LE officials in the late 1990s about his article on the death of the Buffalo mob. How they didn't like it and how they were pretty much propping the mob up so as not to be reassigned from their current cushy jobs. So as early as the late 1990s we have an example of LE artificially hyping up the Buffalo mob which was on its last leg by then.


It goes back to what I said earlier about LE overhyping a problem in order to keep and or increase their funding. Always spending their full budget because coming in under budget gets their budget slashed in the next budget cycle. The FBIs "budget burners", etc. A clear example of them overhyping LCN.


Pogo

When we get into the idea of LE being dishonest about that, it opens the possibility that they've been dishonest in other ways for other reasons. Manning would seem to agree with you that LE is capable of dishonesty, but his claim was that they now downplay the mob in press releases as they had to shift resources elsewhere. I don't have an opinion on whether LE has been completely honest then or now, as I don't have enough info, but I do think if we're going to use the argument that LE was dishonest at any point we have to acknowledge that their lies could change as circumstances/motivations change.

+1
Interesting that it was Boreanaz the lawyer for local 210 and Todaro who told him how to interpret what LE was saying: “If you get paid to count trees (i.e law enforcement/FBI looking for mobsters) do you think you would say there weren’t any trees?”

Like I said in a previous post, it makes sense what Manning said saying about FBI resources. If they were cut after 9/11/01 it would look legit to say LCN in Buffalo was dying and no longer a threat, so they could use resources elsewhere. They would have media backing it up with the ‘98 article—even though they questioned Coppola and the article at the time.
[/quote]

[B.]

Sure they can be dishonest but it totally goes against the grain and their own self interest for agents to downplay LCN. It would mean being reassigned from their relatively easy and safe jobs of investigating mostly older non-violent White guys and being reassigned to more work heavy and potentially dangerous jobs of investigating some drug cartel, violent street gangs or some suicidal jihadis.


Pogo

What you're saying is that FBI agents fundamentally don't want to do difficult jobs to help the country because they'd all prefer cushy jobs investigating pizza bosses, and if given the option they would claim the Buffalo family is active so they could work that assignment instead of investigating other national threats. That shows such a deep cynicism toward the FBI and their agents that I don't see how you're able to believe anything they say, especially in press releases.

If the FBI's motivations are as cynical as you believe they are and they're basically in the business of doing what's most comfortable, I don't know what else to say because so much of this discussion hinges on the credibility and capability of the FBI. What you suggested means the FBI's credibility is in question and your whole argument depends on the FBI's credibility.

[Wiseguy]

Sure they can be dishonest but it totally goes against the grain and their own self interest for agents to downplay LCN. It would mean being reassigned from their relatively easy and safe jobs of investigating mostly older non-violent White guys and being reassigned to more work heavy and potentially dangerous jobs of investigating some drug cartel, violent street gangs or some suicidal jihadis.


Pogo

What you're saying is that FBI agents fundamentally don't want to do difficult jobs to help the country because they'd all prefer cushy jobs investigating pizza bosses, and if given the option they would claim the Buffalo family is active so they could work that assignment instead of investigating other national threats. That shows such a deep cynicism toward the FBI and their agents that I don't see how you're able to believe anything they say, especially in press releases.

If the FBI's motivations are as cynical as you believe they are and they're basically in the business of doing what's most comfortable, I don't know what else to say because so much of this discussion hinges on the credibility and capability of the FBI. What you suggested means the FBI's credibility is in question and your whole argument depends on the FBI's credibility.

I think the underlying point is, of there was anything of significance left to the Buffalo mob, the FBI would have every reason to not do what it's done - write it off.

[Pogo The Clown]

Well that is a human nature in any bureaucracy. Anywhere and everywhere. We see the same thing with the overhyping of terrorism. You can't have anti-terrorism without terrorism. Hence why we occasionally see some poor Apu get entrapped into some non-existent "terrorist plot". They have to justify their jobs and their budgets. The same would be true with OC. Without OC there can be no OC investigators. They wouldn't falsely claim a family is gone when it would only be to their detriment in slashed budgets, downsizing and reassignments to more difficult and dangerous jobs. They will milk that LCN cow to the very last drop. The fact that they haven't brought any cases in Buffalo, even pissant ones, in 17 years shows just how little is going on there.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

Well that is a human nature in any bureaucracy. Anywhere and everywhere. We see the same thing with the overhyping of terrorism. You can't have anti-terrorism without terrorism. Hence why we occasionally see some poor Apu get entrapped into some non-existent "terrorist plot". They have to justify their jobs and their budgets. The same would be true with OC. Without OC there can be no OC investigators. They wouldn't falsely claim a family is gone when it would only be to their detriment in slashed budgets, downsizing and reassignments to more difficult and dangerous jobs. They will milk that LCN cow to the very last drop. The fact that they haven't brought any cases in Buffalo, even pissant ones, in 17 years shows just how little is going on there.


Pogo

Ladies and gentlemen. We’ve now come full circle.
The FBI are the see-all, know-all, only trustworthy body in this dynamic.
To:
The FBI are lazy framers who overhype to justify their jobs, taking the easy routes rather than tackling the hard, disinterested in the truth and with little motivation to find it. Lazy government bureaucrats prone to all sorts of human failures.

Good god man. Does your own hypocrisy weigh even a little?

[SonnyBlackstein]

It's all been a big mistake. Joe Todaro isn't the name of the boss, it's a title. Everyone who becomes boss of the Buffalo family gets called "Joe Todaro". I think we're onto "Joe Todaro IV" by now but who is keeping track? The feds?

Gold sir.


Much, much enjoyed.
My thanks.