Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Wiseguy]

I believe in the possibility of that as well. Which would mean they were largely defunct between 1997 and 2014 and not "under the radar" so to speak. Which would fit with what you've said for years about no one escaping scrutiny.

I have to say, I do get the sense that there's something larger going on in this disagreement, some carryover, call it shell-shock from the old forum days where 30 assholes competed for the most interesting take on their preferred Family. The forums have matured since then and I'd say all of us involved in this discussion- me, B., Eboli, Nicklecity etc are keeping it within the realm of possibility completely guided by sources stemming from a Canadian law enforcement investigation which resulted in convictions.I'm sorry the FBI hasn't commented and we'll have to wait and see what happens down the road. If it comes out it was BS and Violi was drunk and Porky was trout fishing I'll form my conclusion on that. But if the latter occurs and American cases are made, are you willing to then revisit your conclusions on Buffalo?

For me to rethink my position on Buffalo, the FBI would pretty much have to do a 180 on their position, as well as subsequent cases to show for it. Needless to say, I'm not holding my breath for either.

It is possible and there are the tapes of a member saying so, but these guys just keep saying shit like "it isn't possible that this happened, are you out of your mind" over and over based solely off their feelings on the subject.

Yeah, our feelings. Not what the FBI and other law enforcement have said. Not the continual and demonstrable decline in membership. Not the lack of significant cases. Our feelings.

The frustration your feeling is inconsistency. We have evidence, Law Enforcement, a trial, key, taped verbatim and the ‘opposing side’ does not even cede an inch in ground in recognition of the possibility that any of the above holds weight.

The frustration emanates that these exact criteria are what the aforementioned usually trumpet as the gold standards in credibility.

We now understand that it’s not ‘Law Enforcement’ which has credibility, only one very specific agency in that umbrella.

Again, a lot of things are possible.

But what's more probable?

That the FBI and other law enforcementhas been wrong about the Buffalo LCN, there are a bunch of members flying under the radar (many of which got made in only a few years), and the family decided to turn the lights back on after all this time?

Or.....

That maybe Violi's "30 guys" comment should be taken with a grain of salt and, perhaps, we shouldn't read too much into that article that was essentially a theory by the writer about what's going on with the family?

[Fughedaboutit]

I believe in the possibility of that as well. Which would mean they were largely defunct between 1997 and 2014 and not "under the radar" so to speak. Which would fit with what you've said for years about no one escaping scrutiny.

I have to say, I do get the sense that there's something larger going on in this disagreement, some carryover, call it shell-shock from the old forum days where 30 assholes competed for the most interesting take on their preferred Family. The forums have matured since then and I'd say all of us involved in this discussion- me, B., Eboli, Nicklecity etc are keeping it within the realm of possibility completely guided by sources stemming from a Canadian law enforcement investigation which resulted in convictions.I'm sorry the FBI hasn't commented and we'll have to wait and see what happens down the road. If it comes out it was BS and Violi was drunk and Porky was trout fishing I'll form my conclusion on that. But if the latter occurs and American cases are made, are you willing to then revisit your conclusions on Buffalo?

For me to rethink my position on Buffalo, the FBI would pretty much have to do a 180 on their position, as well as subsequent cases to show for it. Needless to say, I'm not holding my breath for either.

It is possible and there are the tapes of a member saying so, but these guys just keep saying shit like "it isn't possible that this happened, are you out of your mind" over and over based solely off their feelings on the subject.

Yeah, our feelings. Not what the FBI and other law enforcement have said. Not the continual and demonstrable decline in membership. Not the lack of significant cases. Our feelings.

The frustration your feeling is inconsistency. We have evidence, Law Enforcement, a trial, key, taped verbatim and the ‘opposing side’ does not even cede an inch in ground in recognition of the possibility that any of the above holds weight.

The frustration emanates that these exact criteria are what the aforementioned usually trumpet as the gold standards in credibility.

We now understand that it’s not ‘Law Enforcement’ which has credibility, only one very specific agency in that umbrella.

Again, a lot of things are possible.

But what's more probable?

That the FBI and other law enforcementhas been wrong about the Buffalo LCN, there are a bunch of members flying under the radar (many of which got made in only a few years), and the family decided to turn the lights back on after all this time?

Or.....

That maybe Violi's "30 guys" comment should be taken with a grain of salt and, perhaps, we shouldn't read too much into that article that was essentially a theory by the writer about what's going on with the family?

A theory backed up by a made member inside the family...not some outside investigating agency...I guess it just holds no weight, sure.

[B.]

Augustine Territo's father was from Serradifalco, like early and modern Buffalo leaders.

Similarly, Fraterrigo's background was from Valellunga.

Saia's father is from Campofranco, in Caltanissetta but bordering on Agrigento.

Guercio's father looks to be from Montelepre.

Some of the other surnames must be relatives of Buffalo members with the same name.

[antimafia]

The first references I've seen to the Bonanno Ontario presence is the early-mid 1960s. Paolo Violi was in Ontario before Montreal but not sure if he was inducted into the Bonannos before or after he moved.

I'm wondering if about the Scibettas of early Hamilton and how early they were connected to Buffalo as well.

ALSO: created a 97 Buffalo chart, courtesy of mobinfiltrator, stroccos and eboli.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=5001

Another interesting aspect to Buffalo's Canadian faction is that the Agueci brothers of Toronto were from Castellammare Del Golfo according to the Niagara Falls Reporter. Agueci looks to be a name primarily associated with Trapani province. The investigation into the Agueci brothers' drug operations revealed that they had allegedly received heroin via contacts in Castellammare. Would be curious who in particular they were close to over there.

One of the Aguecis used Ignazio Bordonaro, Buffalo member in Ontario and practicing lawyer, for legal consultation. With Buffalo inducting a lawyer in Canada, then Rochester apparently having a college professor who was a member (and whose membership could date back to the Buffalo family), some of the many holes in the FBI's historic membership lists could be filled with ostensibly legitimate members. John Montana is another example, though his position eventually put him in the spotlight.

In 1967 close to 40 men were arrested in the basement of Panaro's bar. These men were believed to be celebrating the elder Joe Todaro's recent induction into the Buffalo family. Of the men arrested, many are confirmed members from that period or they show up as confirmed members later, but some of the names to my knowledge haven't been identified as members, though a few of them are relatives of future members. If the celebration was for Todaro's induction, it would seem to have been for the Buffalo / NF members.

That's a great chart.

B.,

Both Peter Edwards and Jerry Capeci have separately written that the Agueci brothers were born in Salemi, in the province of Trapani. I have not yet taken the time to verify.

[B.]

B.,

Both Peter Edwards and Jerry Capeci have separately written that the Agueci brothers were born in Salemi, in the province of Trapani. I have not yet taken the time to verify.

I found Aguecis from Salemi when I looked into it, so it is a surname associated with Salemi. The NFR may be wrong about CDG then, but right about Trapani province.

Here is another bit I found interesting: Sicilian mafia member Giuseppe Cuffaro visited Paolo Violi in Montreal in 1974. Cuffaro was from Montallegro, the paternal hometown of the elder Joe Todaro.

[scagghiuni]

I've pointed this out to scagghiuni several times but he just ignores inconvenient facts.

Buffalo making 15 or 20 guys in the space of a few years? What planet are some of these guys living on?

funny, anyway, like you believed suddenly when violi said in the wiretaps that most of members live in the us border and not the other things, 30 members etc.

[Lupara]

I believe in the possibility of that as well. Which would mean they were largely defunct between 1997 and 2014 and not "under the radar" so to speak. Which would fit with what you've said for years about no one escaping scrutiny.

I have to say, I do get the sense that there's something larger going on in this disagreement, some carryover, call it shell-shock from the old forum days where 30 assholes competed for the most interesting take on their preferred Family. The forums have matured since then and I'd say all of us involved in this discussion- me, B., Eboli, Nicklecity etc are keeping it within the realm of possibility completely guided by sources stemming from a Canadian law enforcement investigation which resulted in convictions.I'm sorry the FBI hasn't commented and we'll have to wait and see what happens down the road. If it comes out it was BS and Violi was drunk and Porky was trout fishing I'll form my conclusion on that. But if the latter occurs and American cases are made, are you willing to then revisit your conclusions on Buffalo?

For me to rethink my position on Buffalo, the FBI would pretty much have to do a 180 on their position, as well as subsequent cases to show for it. Needless to say, I'm not holding my breath for either.

It is possible and there are the tapes of a member saying so, but these guys just keep saying shit like "it isn't possible that this happened, are you out of your mind" over and over based solely off their feelings on the subject.

Yeah, our feelings. Not what the FBI and other law enforcement have said. Not the continual and demonstrable decline in membership. Not the lack of significant cases. Our feelings.

The frustration your feeling is inconsistency. We have evidence, Law Enforcement, a trial, key, taped verbatim and the ‘opposing side’ does not even cede an inch in ground in recognition of the possibility that any of the above holds weight.

The frustration emanates that these exact criteria are what the aforementioned usually trumpet as the gold standards in credibility.

We now understand that it’s not ‘Law Enforcement’ which has credibility, only one very specific agency in that umbrella.

Again, a lot of things are possible.

But what's more probable?

That the FBI and other law enforcementhas been wrong about the Buffalo LCN, there are a bunch of members flying under the radar (many of which got made in only a few years), and the family decided to turn the lights back on after all this time?

Or.....

That maybe Violi's "30 guys" comment should be taken with a grain of salt and, perhaps, we shouldn't read too much into that article that was essentially a theory by the writer about what's going on with the family?

Such statements coming from an admin member should never be taken with a grain of salt until it is actually proven without a reasonable doubt that it is incorrect. Your arrogance in this debate is astounding. You base your pov on secondhand articles quoting outdated statements from FBI agents and then pretend to have more insight than an inducted high ranking member. If I wouldn't have known better I would've thought you work in the FBI's pr department.

[Angelo Santino]

I believe in the possibility of that as well. Which would mean they were largely defunct between 1997 and 2014 and not "under the radar" so to speak. Which would fit with what you've said for years about no one escaping scrutiny.

I have to say, I do get the sense that there's something larger going on in this disagreement, some carryover, call it shell-shock from the old forum days where 30 assholes competed for the most interesting take on their preferred Family. The forums have matured since then and I'd say all of us involved in this discussion- me, B., Eboli, Nicklecity etc are keeping it within the realm of possibility completely guided by sources stemming from a Canadian law enforcement investigation which resulted in convictions.I'm sorry the FBI hasn't commented and we'll have to wait and see what happens down the road. If it comes out it was BS and Violi was drunk and Porky was trout fishing I'll form my conclusion on that. But if the latter occurs and American cases are made, are you willing to then revisit your conclusions on Buffalo?

For me to rethink my position on Buffalo, the FBI would pretty much have to do a 180 on their position, as well as subsequent cases to show for it. Needless to say, I'm not holding my breath for either.

It is possible and there are the tapes of a member saying so, but these guys just keep saying shit like "it isn't possible that this happened, are you out of your mind" over and over based solely off their feelings on the subject.

Yeah, our feelings. Not what the FBI and other law enforcement have said. Not the continual and demonstrable decline in membership. Not the lack of significant cases. Our feelings.

The frustration your feeling is inconsistency. We have evidence, Law Enforcement, a trial, key, taped verbatim and the ‘opposing side’ does not even cede an inch in ground in recognition of the possibility that any of the above holds weight.

The frustration emanates that these exact criteria are what the aforementioned usually trumpet as the gold standards in credibility.

We now understand that it’s not ‘Law Enforcement’ which has credibility, only one very specific agency in that umbrella.

Again, a lot of things are possible.

But what's more probable?

That the FBI and other law enforcementhas been wrong about the Buffalo LCN, there are a bunch of members flying under the radar (many of which got made in only a few years), and the family decided to turn the lights back on after all this time?

Or.....

That maybe Violi's "30 guys" comment should be taken with a grain of salt and, perhaps, we shouldn't read too much into that article that was essentially a theory by the writer about what's going on with the family?

Such statements coming from an admin member should never be taken with a grain of salt until it is actually proven without a reasonable doubt that it is incorrect. Your arrogance in this debate is astounding. You base your pov on secondhand articles quoting outdated statements from FBI agents and then pretend to have more insight than an inducted high ranking member. If I wouldn't have known better I would've thought you work in the FBI's pr department.

The recent events "cross the t's and dots the... lower case j's" (Waynes World 2 reference, mi despiac') in terms of what this board qualifies as having viability.
1) Convictions. A) Project Otremens conducted by the RCMP but also closer to home, in the recent Zummo case conducted by the EDNY who mentioned the "Todaro Crime Family." https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/me ... s-arrested
2) Evidence of criminal activity. See above, related to drugs.
3) Boss, Underboss, Captain, 30 alleged members, ceremonies as recent as 2015. It would be preposterous to suggest that Violi was lying, wrong, off about all of that.

Apart from a few very important quotes, alot of the tidbits contained in the articles are summaries of what Violi was talking about. It would be interesting to obtain more wiretap quotes from Violi. Has any thought about contacting the authors of these articles asking if they can provide any more information of the such? Who knows they might have gotten access to more transcripts and thought it better to summarize.

What Violi said about:
1 Where are these so-called 30 members? Did he go into any more specifics? Such as having to go to Buffalo weekly? There should be some more Ralph DeLeo-like conversations in there.
2 Who exactly told him "you beat out 30 guys." If this person has no criminal record then chances are he won't be named.
3 Any further info about meeting Todaro Jr in Florida. It's truly remarkable that the RCMP decided to release this information, I would have thought they'd do what they usually do and omit the person's identity "... went to Florida and was promoted by a Boss of Buffalo." Imagine the fucking arguments we'd be having then?
4 If he mentioned Falzone specifically. The article said Violi said the reconstitution happened in 2014, while Falzone was boss. He could have said that or it could be a case of information being added by the author. There's other examples such as whether or not he specifically said the majority of membership was currently Buffalo-based.

I reckon we won't get very far but it's still worth a shot.

Unless the funding has been cut severely, I would imagine the FBI is currently aware of the information that's come out. Given that it involves drugs, Bonanno LCN and international crime (US and Canada) they might be very interested. If Buffalo was reconstituted in 2014 then it explains why they were silent for so long, but within a few years of being active they are being noticed which coincides with the argument of criminal convictions equating to activity.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Buffalo's stayed silent from 1998 until 2017 because they are criminal masterminds. But what comes with the 2014 Allegations is the possibility that this group was beefed up within a very short timeframe i.e. 15 or even 20 new members by 2017 to round out 30 by counting alive heads from the 2006 and 1997 charts. It's that or the FBI missed 5-10 members in 1997 and 2006 which I don't think is likely.

B., do you have any opinion on Buffalo's numbers throughout the eras from say 1960 to 2000? Was there a sharp decline or do you think they have members that evaded scrutiny into the 90's?

[Pogo The Clown]

Well we are going into 6 years now of this Buffalo resurgence with all these supposedly new made members running around and we have yet to see a single LCN case out of the Buffalo side. During the same timeframe we have seen LCN cases out of NY, all over NJ, Philly, Boston, Chicago, Springfield, Florida, Providence and possible residual cases in Detroit and Pittsburgh. Shouldn't that tell you guys something?


More to the point in 2017 we have the FBI, NY state and local LE saying it is gone. 2017 is 3 years into this supposed resurgence. Now you can't fall back into the usual default position of they didn't know about it because Morena was an FBI informant since before 2015 and had extensive dealings with Violi so wouldn't they have gotten a whiff of something that big going on?


Now we have former longtime Buffalo LCN investigators and prosecutors saying just 3 months ago that Buffalo is gone and has been for a long time (in that video JCB posted). Are they in the dark to?


How long do we have to go without any Buffalo cases before we come to the conclusion that this big resurgence is the usual internet hype?


Pogo

[Cheech]

The recent events "cross the t's and dots the... lower case j's" (Waynes World 2 reference, mi despiac') in terms of what this board qualifies as having viability.
1) Convictions. A) Project Otremens conducted by the RCMP but also closer to home, in the recent Zummo case conducted by the EDNY who mentioned the "Todaro Crime Family." https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/me ... s-arrested
2) Evidence of criminal activity. See above, related to drugs.
3) Boss, Underboss, Captain, 30 alleged members, ceremonies as recent as 2015. It would be preposterous to suggest that Violi was lying, wrong, off about all of that.

Apart from a few very important quotes, alot of the tidbits contained in the articles are summaries of what Violi was talking about. It would be interesting to obtain more wiretap quotes from Violi. Has any thought about contacting the authors of these articles asking if they can provide any more information of the such? Who knows they might have gotten access to more transcripts and thought it better to summarize.

What Violi said about:
1 Where are these so-called 30 members? Did he go into any more specifics? Such as having to go to Buffalo weekly? There should be some more Ralph DeLeo-like conversations in there.
2 Who exactly told him "you beat out 30 guys." If this person has no criminal record then chances are he won't be named.
3 Any further info about meeting Todaro Jr in Florida. It's truly remarkable that the RCMP decided to release this information, I would have thought they'd do what they usually do and omit the person's identity "... went to Florida and was promoted by a Boss of Buffalo." Imagine the fucking arguments we'd be having then?
4 If he mentioned Falzone specifically. The article said Violi said the reconstitution happened in 2014, while Falzone was boss. He could have said that or it could be a case of information being added by the author. There's other examples such as whether or not he specifically said the majority of membership was currently Buffalo-based.

I reckon we won't get very far but it's still worth a shot.

Unless the funding has been cut severely, I would imagine the FBI is currently aware of the information that's come out. Given that it involves drugs, Bonanno LCN and international crime (US and Canada) they might be very interested. If Buffalo was reconstituted in 2014 then it explains why they were silent for so long, but within a few years of being active they are being noticed which coincides with the argument of criminal convictions equating to activity.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Buffalo's stayed silent from 1998 until 2017 because they are criminal masterminds. But what comes with the 2014 Allegations is the possibility that this group was beefed up within a very short timeframe i.e. 15 or even 20 new members by 2017 to round out 30 by counting alive heads from the 2006 and 1997 charts. It's that or the FBI missed 5-10 members in 1997 and 2006 which I don't think is likely.

B., do you have any opinion on Buffalo's numbers throughout the eras from say 1960 to 2000? Was there a sharp decline or do you think they have members that evaded scrutiny into the 90's?

agreed. really good post.

[JCB1977]

@ Pogo

24 hours ago, I would have agreed with you 100%. The Violi tapes in the article that I went through this morning over and over definitely tell a different story. I don't have a clue what exactly is going on, my gut tells me that there is more activity in Canada across the NY border but I can't understand for the life of me why Violi would have told an associate about meeting with Todaro in FL and was picked up on a wiretap. I am not ready to concede that the Buffalo Family is alive and well but something is going on. If anything, the FBI certainly has this info if we do and maybe they are assigning a few case agents to investigate this much deeper. I am surprised the LE in Buffalo (State Police, Local Police or FBI) have not commented on this new info. TIme will tell.

[Angelo Santino]

Well we are going into 6 years now of this Buffalo resurgence with all these supposedly new made members running around and we have yet to see a single LCN case out of the Buffalo side. During the same timeframe we have seen LCN cases out of NY, all over NJ, Philly, Boston, Chicago, Springfield, Florida, Providence and possible residual cases in Detroit and Pittsburgh. Shouldn't that tell you guys something?

Yes, that they as an entity either have very little activity there or they just haven't been indicted yet. We're all well aware the lack of activity in Buffalo proper. I'm not the only one on here who's been to that city, been to La Nova and EVERYONE'S takeaway was that the Todaros "may have been linked with OC at one point but are essentially legit today."

Before two weeks ago that was my long-decided conclusion... But Violi throws a wrench into everything, he's either lying about Todaro, being underboss, being made, Rocco Luppino as a capo, brother Giuseppe turning it down, meetings with Montreal, administration updates with the Bonannos... or he's telling the truth. All due respect to the agents in the video but It's their organization, we kinda have to defer to them when they say something. Especially considering the evidence which comes not only from Canada but from NY. Porky Zannocchio's presence is probably not coincidental or innocent.

For those of us who lean towards the later, we're taking Buffalo city's inactivity into account, no one's saying they've been flying under the radar since 97 as an (FBI qualified) Acting group. But given that they are right next to a country where organized crime is enjoying a golden age in Canada and have traditionally had representation there, are we really that foolish to speculate in that direction? Especially given that they've been involved in two cases coming from that side?

How long do we have to go without any Buffalo cases before we come to the conclusion that this big resurgence is the usual internet hype?


Pogo

Until someone proves that Violi was lying, the RCMP and EDNY cases were based on BS.

Who knows, maybe it'll come out that he was just a drug dealer who was an avid mafia buff, enjoyed the Sopranos, read books and maybe joined a forum or two and used that knowledge to make himself seem larger in the Hamilton Underworld. A quasi-Jilly Scibetta in real life. If that comes out I'll accept that as "Fin." There's no ego in this, no agenda, no need for Buffalo to be active. I'm just following the evidence. Any speculations beyond that are merely that and not meant to be taken as factual until a valid source confirms it.

[Wiseguy]

Well we are going into 6 years now of this Buffalo resurgence with all these supposedly new made members running around and we have yet to see a single LCN case out of the Buffalo side. During the same timeframe we have seen LCN cases out of NY, all over NJ, Philly, Boston, Chicago, Springfield, Florida, Providence and possible residual cases in Detroit and Pittsburgh. Shouldn't that tell you guys something?


More to the point in 2017 we have the FBI, NY state and local LE saying it is gone. 2017 is 3 years into this supposed resurgence. Now you can't fall back into the usual default position of they didn't know about it because Morena was an FBI informant since before 2015 and had extensive dealings with Violi so wouldn't they have gotten a whiff of something that big going on?


Now we have former longtime Buffalo LCN investigators and prosecutors saying just 3 months ago that Buffalo is gone and has been for a long time (in that video JCB posted). Are they in the dark to?


How long do we have to go without any Buffalo cases before we come to the conclusion that this big resurgence is the usual internet hype?


Pogo

It's Detroit all over again. Remember how many were sold on that family back on the RD board, especially after the 2006 gambling case? Here we are 13 years later. It doesn't take a crystal ball to see what's going to happen with all this Buffalo bluster.

If anything, the FBI certainly has this info if we do and maybe they are assigning a few case agents to investigate this much deeper.

The fact that it seems to be of minimal priority to them should tell you something.

I am surprised the LE in Buffalo (State Police, Local Police or FBI) have not commented on this new info.

Maybe because they feel it doesn't change the overall picture?

TIme will tell.

It has with Detroit. And it will with Buffalo.

I'm just following the evidence. Any speculations beyond that are merely that and not meant to be taken as factual until a valid source confirms it.

And this is us being "true north." Again.

[Pogo The Clown]

But it is not an either or situation. I don't think Violi was lying about any of it (except exaggerating/boasting with the 30 guys comment). But what does it really mean?


We saw the same situation with Rochester in 1999. At least 20 made members still living, a Boss being promoted, an induction ceremony cought on tape, drug trafficking, contact with Bonanno and Cleveland members, etc. but now with 20 years of hindsight we see that it wasn't some big Rochester resurgence but just the usual residual activity from the last remnants of the organization. I suspect we will see the same thing with Buffalo. I mean we have haven't had a Buffalo made member indicted on the US side since 2002.


Pogo

[Cheech]

I don't know if its a resurgence but something is going on. more so than any of us ever thought. to deny that is wild crazy.