Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Lupara]

I see. A poster on gbb giacomo vacari said last year that they had about 5 made guys and 25-30 associates which matches up with what your saying. No clue how he knows that. Another thing I’m hoping you may help me answer is how do the musitanos “make” guys? Is it done with permission from the rizzutos? Did they do that a while ago and therefore don’t have any recent made members? We’re they made by buffalo and then just remained made, or did they just do it themselves and people recognized them as made as well.

I think it differs from family to family.

As for getting their button. That is NEVER discussed, at least not in front of me. I know as much as you know.

I once asked one of the Papalias to ‘make’ me. It was an interesting, and funny conversation.


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So are the Musitano’s made Buffalo members, how did they get their start with them, through there father or uncle?

Angelo was never made and Pat wasn’t a made guy when he plugged Papalia. He got his button when he got out of jail and that will have come from Montreal I believe. Pat’s old man was a boss, old school Calabrase brought over in the 50s by the Papalias believe it or not.


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Papalia was under Buffalo so how does Montreal have the authority to make them, since they were at the time officially with the Bonannos. Does that make the Musitanos Bonanno members? What about the Luppinos?

Right, this came from a really tight CI, who is still deeply involved in TOC. I’ve also corroborated with police statements and Murdocks account.

Papalia was under Rizzuto, who at the time answered to Buffalo.

Pat and Ang are two smart assed cugines who want to get made. They go to Papalia, cap in hand and ask for spread. (An area where Papalia collects gambling dues).

Papalia still very familiar with their father, gives them an area and they do fantastic. The boys have already got a rep and everyone pays up. They give the money to Papalia, he gives them some back and he pays up the chain to Rizzuto. You all know how this works.

So one day, Pat has an idea. He’ll go directly to Rizzuto and pay him. That way Rizzuto knows exactly where the money is coming from. So he does that. Rizzuto doesn’t give a fuck where it comes from and takes the cash, knowing this will be a problem, but not his problem.

When Papalia finds out he instructs the boys to give him his cash back, the full amount, with juice. (Interest)

Dumb and dumber tell him he’ll get it on the next collection day. They go collect, then head down to the Fallsview Casino to double the money, so they can pay back Papalia.

Well wouldn’t you know it. They lose everything. CBP have them crossing to Buffalo shortly after leaving the casino. Two days later Murdock offs Papalia right in front of my CI.

Then Barillaro starts up, knowing full well who was behind the murder, but not knowing it was authorized. Before Buffalo can tell him to calm it down he starts to make threats against the Musitanos.

The Musitano send Murdock round to his house and he whacks Barillaro. They were 300 meters away in a Waffle House.

Again a couple of days after this CBP have the Musitanos crossing the border and coming back. But I’ll bet Buffalo was pissed. No chance they’re getting made now states side.

Couple of months after that, surveillance catch Musitano at a meeting in Ontario with Vito Rizzuto. Thats when he aligned himself with Montreal. Guys an earner and like I said, Rizzuto doesn’t give a fuck where it comes from. Musitano inherited all Johnny’s book.

Oh, Dom Musitano, Pat’s father answered to Italy. Not to anyone in North America. Pat aligned himself with Montreal out of self preservation.

Now though, I’m starting to believe they all want him dead, like with Papalia. Johnny became such a problem for everyone, he had to go.

In answer to Q in my humble opinion, Pat made in/ by Montreal. Angelo never got his button.



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+10

Although can't help being sceptic about Rizzuto being under Buffalo for the documented fact that he was listed as a Bonanno soldier under Sciascia (who was still alive).

Sorry, my bad...I meant Bonanno. He answered to New York, not Buffalo. Thx for the correction.


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Still wonder why you believe Papalia was answering to Rizzuto since he was I believe identified as a Buffalo member by multiple credible sources. Did he somehow switch over to the Bonannos or did he unofficially align himself with Montreal and turned his back at Buffalo? Or was he inducted into the Bonannos from the start? Poster B. discovered that the Bonannos had several members in Ontario during Joe's era, which was possibly another reason why his cousin felt threatened and conspired against him. Magaddino also put Papalia on the same death list as the Aguecis in the early 60s which would be unusual if he was not in his family. Needless to say Papalia somehow talked (or paid) his way out of it.

Also, it's interesting that you mention that Papalia brought over Dominic Musitano as Bonanno according to an old FBI report based on a conversation by Magaddino 'brought over' Paolo Violi and sponsored him into his family. That Bonanno was personally aquainted with members of his old Montreal crew is confirmed by the fact that he sent a wreath to Rocco Violi's funeral to show his sympathy for the family.

It was actually Johnny Pops father who brought over Dom Musitano, not Johnny. I meant the Papalia family. Johnnys father was a driver and fixer for Rocco Perri. As for Buffalo/ Montreal I’ll do a complete posting on it.

Looking forward to it. [emoji2]

[NickleCity]

Do we have any other names aside from Todaro and Violi? What about Butch Quarcini, Bobby Panaro or Victor Sansanese?

Butch Quarcini who was head of local '91 in Niagara Falls passed before his trial a long time ago.

[mobinfiltrator]

Do we have any other names aside from Todaro and Violi? What about Butch Quarcini, Bobby Panaro or Victor Sansanese?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.



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[Wiseguy]

Looks like Manning made a mistake and very typical of pogo and wiseguy to jump right on that because we all know how much time and how many key strokes they have invested in the Buffalo is dead theory. Here is someone from a position of authority who may oppose that theory and their campaign to discredit him for the sake of being right has already begun.

I love how you refer to the what the FBI says as a "theory." Are they not in a position of authority?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.

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So let's see here.

In 1989, the feds at Buffalo at 45 members.

Your 1997 chart shows 34 members.

In 2006, the feds had the family at 23 members. And over the last 13 years since then, several more have died.

Anyone see a pattern here?

[mobinfiltrator]

Looks like Manning made a mistake and very typical of pogo and wiseguy to jump right on that because we all know how much time and how many key strokes they have invested in the Buffalo is dead theory. Here is someone from a position of authority who may oppose that theory and their campaign to discredit him for the sake of being right has already begun.

I love how you refer to the what the FBI says as a "theory." Are they not in a position of authority?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.

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So let's see here.

In 1989, the feds at Buffalo at 45 members.

Your 1997 chart shows 34 members.

In 2006, the feds had the family at 23 members. And over the last 13 years since then, several more have died.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Well, if you and Pogo want to be so detail orientated, like you claim, try reading the diagram correctly. That 97 doc only shows 20 active members I believe, not 34. Ill start another thread in a minute and explain the problems with your ‘theory’. And in 2006 I was working a joint cross border project with the FBI, as a Detective with the RCMP Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit and I know exactly why the FBI claim Buffalo are now defunct.


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[Wiseguy]

Looks like Manning made a mistake and very typical of pogo and wiseguy to jump right on that because we all know how much time and how many key strokes they have invested in the Buffalo is dead theory. Here is someone from a position of authority who may oppose that theory and their campaign to discredit him for the sake of being right has already begun.

I love how you refer to the what the FBI says as a "theory." Are they not in a position of authority?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.

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So let's see here.

In 1989, the feds at Buffalo at 45 members.

Your 1997 chart shows 34 members.

In 2006, the feds had the family at 23 members. And over the last 13 years since then, several more have died.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Well, if you and Pogo want to be so detail orientated, like you claim, try reading the diagram correctly. That 97 doc only shows 20 active members I believe, not 34. Ill start another thread in a minute and explain the problems with your ‘theory’. And in 2006 I was working a joint cross border project with the FBI, as a Detective with the RCMP Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit and I know exactly why the FBI claim Buffalo are now defunct.


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We're not out to derail to the thread, despite what you may have heard. No need to start a new thread. This one is fine. And I was referring to the total members shown on the chart.

Anyway, while you're explaining why the FBI considers the Buffalo mob dead (though the answer seems pretty obvious to a few of us), perhaps you can also explain why there has been relatively little in the way of Buffalo mob cases (on either side of the border) over the past 20 years.

[John W]

Looks like Manning made a mistake and very typical of pogo and wiseguy to jump right on that because we all know how much time and how many key strokes they have invested in the Buffalo is dead theory. Here is someone from a position of authority who may oppose that theory and their campaign to discredit him for the sake of being right has already begun.

I love how you refer to the what the FBI says as a "theory." Are they not in a position of authority?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.

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So let's see here.

In 1989, the feds at Buffalo at 45 members.

Your 1997 chart shows 34 members.

In 2006, the feds had the family at 23 members. And over the last 13 years since then, several more have died.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Well, if you and Pogo want to be so detail orientated, like you claim, try reading the diagram correctly. That 97 doc only shows 20 active members I believe, not 34. Ill start another thread in a minute and explain the problems with your ‘theory’. And in 2006 I was working a joint cross border project with the FBI, as a Detective with the RCMP Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit and I know exactly why the FBI claim Buffalo are now defunct.


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We're not out to derail to the thread, despite what you may have heard. No need to start a new thread. This one is fine. And I was referring to the total members shown on the chart.

Anyway, while you're explaining why the FBI considers the Buffalo mob dead (though the answer seems pretty obvious to a few of us), perhaps you can also explain why there has been relatively little in the way of Buffalo mob cases (on either side of the border) over the past 20 years.

So was Violi lying when he said he was the Buffalo underboss on the wiretap?

[Wiseguy]

So was Violi lying when he said he was the Buffalo underboss on the wiretap?

No. Not sure where you've been but this point has already been addressed repeatedly. Several examples have already been given where we've seen guys be promoted in families that were basically defunct.

[Angelo Santino]

Do we have any other names aside from Todaro and Violi? What about Butch Quarcini, Bobby Panaro or Victor Sansanese?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.



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Thank you for sharing. As for your other documents are they scans or PDF? You can redact the politicians' names and then post, or provide a list of member names' listed in these documents.

Wiseguy always talks up a storm? You've been here one day and had one interaction with him. Right? I seen this thread last night and after scrolling down a little bit started laughing thinking to myself thinking "Wiseguy's head is going to explode." And then I seen the 30-capo bit and it made my week! In all fairness I get what you're saying (and what you didn't say that others took as you saying.) One FBI informer actually said Carlo Gambino had 75 capos and since I wasn't there I would say: "It's possible but highly unlikely." I could contact DiLeonardo and tell him I have a report that the Gambinos had 400 members in 2000 and he wouldn't know for sure, he'd say maybe. I could take that as a gotcha or I could accept that while on the streets he didn't go around counting crews asking capos how many soldiers they have under them.

I find Buffalo's latest revelations to be very interesting, as do we all right now. But Wiseguy's reservations are valid. I've been to Buffalo and even La Nova (I wasn't impressed) and there's very few Italians in that city. If they exist they are a network in the suburbs and around the city which is primarily African American. When I was in La Nova, half of the customers and a few employees were African American, Dominican or Trinidadian. It's by no means the Bada Bing or Satriales.

[mobinfiltrator]

I’ll speak to the topic of Buffalo and the FBI’s constant denial they’re still an active organization.

In 2006 my Project (Scopa) an undercover operation in the Traditional Organized Crime in the Golden Horseshoe was compromise by corrupt police officers. Contracts were taken out by (allegedly) TOC and the Hamilton Chapter of Hells Angels.

I was sent as a Detective to work at the RCMP Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit. We were working a job on the Albanian mob. It was a cross border operation with both the FBI Detroit and Buffalo/ Niagara field offices.

In chatting with one of the FBI agents after a debrief he asked my name, so I told him. He knew me, and so did a few other of the officers. They’d worked TOC out of Buffalo for years and he told me they were still a very active crew and increasingly so in Canada.

He went on to tell me because of something that happened in Sept 2001 90% of all Organized Crime funding had been diverted to anti-terrorism.

This lack of funding showed as well. We’d follow the Albanians to the border, and hand over to the Feds. Our surveillance crew would run about 9 strong, 9 different vehicles. The feds would be lucky if they had 3 surveillance guys and 2 vehicles, because , and I quote “We’re on a gas budget.”

In the end we took the Albanians down on their way to do a hit just outside of Toronto, and even extradited one who was wanted by NYPD for an attempt murder on an NYPD Detective.

My point is, from a law enforcement perspective, when you’re this short handed that you can’t cover your most basic units, you enter into PR mode and tell everyone concerned that there’s no crime. Nothing to see here. And of course the Todaro’s aren’t going to dispute this.

2006/ 2007 the FBI told me directly TOC are operational and stronger than ever in Buffalo.

I speak with one ‘retired’ mobster on this side of the border. Every year he still has to cross and present himself to the Todaro’s to prove his loyalty, and every year he doe’s so expecting this will be the time he gets clipped.

The Buffalo TOC are still alive and well and anyone who tells you any different is delusional to the facts.

These guys rarely retire.

Its a lifestyle for them, not about the money. They don’t know or want to do anything else.

Two made guys from Buffalo attended Ang Musitanos funeral.

We have them active and about 30 strong in 2006.

You really think they’re gone because the FBI and Todaro say so?

Just my humble opinion.




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[mobinfiltrator]

Looks like Manning made a mistake and very typical of pogo and wiseguy to jump right on that because we all know how much time and how many key strokes they have invested in the Buffalo is dead theory. Here is someone from a position of authority who may oppose that theory and their campaign to discredit him for the sake of being right has already begun.

I love how you refer to the what the FBI says as a "theory." Are they not in a position of authority?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.

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So let's see here.

In 1989, the feds at Buffalo at 45 members.

Your 1997 chart shows 34 members.

In 2006, the feds had the family at 23 members. And over the last 13 years since then, several more have died.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Well, if you and Pogo want to be so detail orientated, like you claim, try reading the diagram correctly. That 97 doc only shows 20 active members I believe, not 34. Ill start another thread in a minute and explain the problems with your ‘theory’. And in 2006 I was working a joint cross border project with the FBI, as a Detective with the RCMP Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit and I know exactly why the FBI claim Buffalo are now defunct.


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We're not out to derail to the thread, despite what you may have heard. No need to start a new thread. This one is fine. And I was referring to the total members shown on the chart.

Anyway, while you're explaining why the FBI considers the Buffalo mob dead (though the answer seems pretty obvious to a few of us), perhaps you can also explain why there has been relatively little in the way of Buffalo mob cases (on either side of the border) over the past 20 years.

So was Violi lying when he said he was the Buffalo underboss on the wiretap?

To that. Maybe. These guys like to boast, but that would be a boast that could get him clipped.


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[John W]

Looks like Manning made a mistake and very typical of pogo and wiseguy to jump right on that because we all know how much time and how many key strokes they have invested in the Buffalo is dead theory. Here is someone from a position of authority who may oppose that theory and their campaign to discredit him for the sake of being right has already begun.

I love how you refer to the what the FBI says as a "theory." Are they not in a position of authority?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So let's see here.

In 1989, the feds at Buffalo at 45 members.

Your 1997 chart shows 34 members.

In 2006, the feds had the family at 23 members. And over the last 13 years since then, several more have died.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Well, if you and Pogo want to be so detail orientated, like you claim, try reading the diagram correctly. That 97 doc only shows 20 active members I believe, not 34. Ill start another thread in a minute and explain the problems with your ‘theory’. And in 2006 I was working a joint cross border project with the FBI, as a Detective with the RCMP Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit and I know exactly why the FBI claim Buffalo are now defunct.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We're not out to derail to the thread, despite what you may have heard. No need to start a new thread. This one is fine. And I was referring to the total members shown on the chart.

Anyway, while you're explaining why the FBI considers the Buffalo mob dead (though the answer seems pretty obvious to a few of us), perhaps you can also explain why there has been relatively little in the way of Buffalo mob cases (on either side of the border) over the past 20 years.

So was Violi lying when he said he was the Buffalo underboss on the wiretap?

To that. Maybe. These guys like to boast, but that would be a boast that could get him clipped.


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Exactly, that doesn't seem the sort of thing that someone would want to brag about to someone and be a lie

[mobinfiltrator]

Do we have any other names aside from Todaro and Violi? What about Butch Quarcini, Bobby Panaro or Victor Sansanese?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.



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Thank you for sharing. As for your other documents are they scans or PDF? You can redact the politicians' names and then post, or provide a list of member names' listed in these documents.

Wiseguy always talks up a storm? You've been here one day and had one interaction with him. Right? I seen this thread last night and after scrolling down a little bit started laughing thinking to myself thinking "Wiseguy's head is going to explode." And then I seen the 30-capo bit and it made my week! In all fairness I get what you're saying (and what you didn't say that others took as you saying.) One FBI informer actually said Carlo Gambino had 75 capos and since I wasn't there I would say: "It's possible but highly unlikely." I could contact DiLeonardo and tell him I have a report that the Gambinos had 400 members in 2000 and he wouldn't know for sure, he'd say maybe. I could take that as a gotcha or I could accept that while on the streets he didn't go around counting crews asking capos how many soldiers they have under them.

I find Buffalo's latest revelations to be very interesting, as do we all right now. But Wiseguy's reservations are valid. I've been to Buffalo and even La Nova (I wasn't impressed) and there's very few Italians in that city. If they exist they are a network in the suburbs and around the city which is primarily African American. When I was in La Nova, half of the customers and a few employees were African American, Dominican or Trinidadian. It's by no means the Bada Bing or Satriales.

Sorry, ‘Wiseguys’ always talk up a storm. Wasn’t talking about the chap with the account labelled ‘Wiseguy’, but how made guys like to talk shit.


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[mobinfiltrator]

Do we have any other names aside from Todaro and Violi? What about Butch Quarcini, Bobby Panaro or Victor Sansanese?

So, I have more docs (a lot) but they include politicians so I’d rather keep them to myself for the time being. This is from 97. FBI deny theres TOC in Buffalo at the moment. I would imagine, the most likely from this is you have at least five capos and 30 soldiers currently. I was responding to someone who said “Violi said Buffalo had 30 capos”. My response is its unlikely, but not impossible, and wiseguys always talk up a storm.



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Thank you for sharing. As for your other documents are they scans or PDF? You can redact the politicians' names and then post, or provide a list of member names' listed in these documents.

Wiseguy always talks up a storm? You've been here one day and had one interaction with him. Right? I seen this thread last night and after scrolling down a little bit started laughing thinking to myself thinking "Wiseguy's head is going to explode." And then I seen the 30-capo bit and it made my week! In all fairness I get what you're saying (and what you didn't say that others took as you saying.) One FBI informer actually said Carlo Gambino had 75 capos and since I wasn't there I would say: "It's possible but highly unlikely." I could contact DiLeonardo and tell him I have a report that the Gambinos had 400 members in 2000 and he wouldn't know for sure, he'd say maybe. I could take that as a gotcha or I could accept that while on the streets he didn't go around counting crews asking capos how many soldiers they have under them.

I find Buffalo's latest revelations to be very interesting, as do we all right now. But Wiseguy's reservations are valid. I've been to Buffalo and even La Nova (I wasn't impressed) and there's very few Italians in that city. If they exist they are a network in the suburbs and around the city which is primarily African American. When I was in La Nova, half of the customers and a few employees were African American, Dominican or Trinidadian. It's by no means the Bada Bing or Satriales.

Ha, and as for the look of mobsters establishment, they always look like shit. You want nice, go into a Hells Angels clubhouse. Those guys spare nothing when spending on clubhouse renos.


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[Pogo The Clown]

Curious why the FBI haven't declared the New England, Philly, Chicago, NJ families dead for PR or budget purposes? Why does Buffalo get this special treatment of being declared defunct and ignored by the FBI when in reality they know still are still going strong?


Pogo