Chicago Capone war

[JeremyTheJew]

Was Chicagos war - Capone/ Torrio vs Weiss/bugs Moran and there’s one more I can’t remember name of - was that basically chicagos version of the castlemarese war??

Or was it not comparable???

How many killings on both sides if anyone can list??


This was pretty much the last war Chicago was involved with…. I can’t really think of any other time Chicago had factions against each other - maybe certain players …. But not like a full green light war like Colombo or binnanos had.

Maybe the giancana war with the numbers racket black gangsters would be worth mentioning

[Pogo The Clown]

Was Chicagos war - Capone/ Torrio vs Weiss/bugs Moran and there’s one more I can’t remember name of

Vincent "The Schemer" Drucci


Pogo

[Antiliar]

Was Chicagos war - Capone/ Torrio vs Weiss/bugs Moran and there’s one more I can’t remember name of - was that basically chicagos version of the castlemarese war??

Or was it not comparable???

How many killings on both sides if anyone can list??


This was pretty much the last war Chicago was involved with…. I can’t really think of any other time Chicago had factions against each other - maybe certain players …. But not like a full green light war like Colombo or binnanos had.

Maybe the giancana war with the numbers racket black gangsters would be worth mentioning

There were multiple mobs and gangs and each had their set of alliances. There was the Chicago Mafia (and that was later divided into factions), the Torrio/Capone Outfit, the North Side gang (O'Banion, Weiss, Drucci, Moran), Joe Saltis/Frank McErlane, Roger Tuohy, Spike O'Donnell, etc. This link has a map that shows the different gangs and their territories: https://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1768.html

[Ivan]

Was Chicagos war - Capone/ Torrio vs Weiss/bugs Moran and there’s one more I can’t remember name of - was that basically chicagos version of the castlemarese war??

Or was it not comparable???

How many killings on both sides if anyone can list??


This was pretty much the last war Chicago was involved with…. I can’t really think of any other time Chicago had factions against each other - maybe certain players …. But not like a full green light war like Colombo or binnanos had.

Maybe the giancana war with the numbers racket black gangsters would be worth mentioning

There were multiple mobs and gangs and each had their set of alliances. There was the Chicago Mafia (and that was later divided into factions), the Torrio/Capone Outfit, the North Side gang (O'Banion, Weiss, Drucci, Moran), Joe Saltis/Frank McErlane, Roger Tuohy, Spike O'Donnell, etc. This link has a map that shows the different gangs and their territories: https://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1768.html

Al Capone's Beer Wars by John Binder is a good book that goes into all this in some depth. It's pretty complicated.

[PolackTony]

This was pretty much the last war Chicago was involved with…. I can’t really think of any other time Chicago had factions against each other - maybe certain players …. But not like a full green light war like Colombo or binnanos had.

There was a serious factional conflict in Chicago in the 1940s, often dubbed the “Cheese War” as it was related to some degree to control of the Grande Cheese Co In WI. Our best though limited understanding of it is that it was precipitated by an attempt by Vincenzo Benevento to seize control of the outfit from Accardo, who was newly installed as boss in the wake of Ricca and essentially the entire Chicago administration being jailed for the Hollywood Extortion case in ‘43. A bunch of guys were killed during this period, though we have little inside information as to the exact factional lines and alliances. For whatever reason, this has hardly made it in to the collective consciousness of mob enthusiasts, despite the fact that it was seemingly as serious as any of the conflicts that happened in the Bonannos or Colombos. When I say serious, it got very violent and nasty, with incidents like Gaetano Oneglia getting blown away by three gunmen in a barber’s chair in front of witnesses, Onofrio Vitale’s body being found tortured with holes drilled in his head (IIRC), Benevento being tracked by gunmen to the Northern suburbs where he was riddled with bullets in front of his wife. The Chicago papers during this period covered this murders closely and likened the brutal killings to the Capone era wars.

[PolackTony]

Was Chicagos war - Capone/ Torrio vs Weiss/bugs Moran and there’s one more I can’t remember name of - was that basically chicagos version of the castlemarese war??

Or was it not comparable???

How many killings on both sides if anyone can list??


This was pretty much the last war Chicago was involved with…. I can’t really think of any other time Chicago had factions against each other - maybe certain players …. But not like a full green light war like Colombo or binnanos had.

Maybe the giancana war with the numbers racket black gangsters would be worth mentioning

There were multiple mobs and gangs and each had their set of alliances. There was the Chicago Mafia (and that was later divided into factions), the Torrio/Capone Outfit, the North Side gang (O'Banion, Weiss, Drucci, Moran), Joe Saltis/Frank McErlane, Roger Tuohy, Spike O'Donnell, etc. This link has a map that shows the different gangs and their territories: https://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1768.html

Al Capone's Beer Wars by John Binder is a good book that goes into all this in some depth. It's pretty complicated.

I’d second Binder’s book as a great summary and reference for the Chicago conflicts during this period. Binder, won’t, however, give one much insight at all into how these battles connected back to internal conflicts within the mafia. While, as Antiliar notes, these conflicts were complex, shifting, and involved multiple groups, many of the parties were involved at some level as partners and/or rivals of different factions within the mafia and much of the violence related in one way or another to bloody struggles for control of the Chicago mafia, as well as operational disputes over control of bootlegging and gambling territories.

A good example is the Genna conflict in 1925. Most accounts that one will read will assume that there was something called the “Genna gang”. Nicola Gentile, however, was very clear that the Gennas led an attempted hostile takeover of the mafia at this time, rebelling against boss Tony Lombardo, who had Joe Aiello as his sottocapo (Lombardo having succeeded Michele Merlo as rappresentante following the latter’s death in 1924). Gentile was in a position to know this, as he stated that he (then KC rappresentante) was appointed as part of a panel or commissione of rappresentanti sent by the Gran Consiglio to resolve the war in Chicago. This commissione was able to broker a peace treaty, but Gentile didn’t give us an account of what happened next, as violence erupted again in the Genna’s Taylor St territory through 1925-1926. All that we really have are newspaper and LE accounts that state that the Gennas were in turn double-crossed by some of their own men who rallied under Orazio Tropea and Samuzzo Amatuna to try to again challenge the Family’s leadership (newspaper accounts in the period stated that Tropea and Amatuna ran afoul in this way if the mafia’s ruling “council” and wound up getting executed for it; my suspicion is that this was also related to the war in Chicago Heights where boss Filippo Piazza was murdered and that Family presumably merged into Chicago thereafter).

Similarly, outsider accounts will talk about the later conflict (1928 to 1930) as one between the “Aiello gang” and the “Capone gang”. Because of Gentile and Bonanno, we know that this was actually another struggle for control of the mafia (and to get at one of Jeremy’s questions, yes, this was directly related to the wider Castellammarese War and the events and tensions leading up to it), with Masseria inducting Capone into his Family in a bid to get him installed as boss of Chicago, on the condition that Capone eliminate Lombardo and Aiello (presumably as the current Chicago leadership was a political obstacle to Masseria’s plans to shore himself up as capo dei capi after taking out D’Aquila). While Lombardo was murdered in 1928, Aiello managed to hold on and we can assume presented a major thorn in the side for Masseria and Capone’s plans. Much of what occurred behind the scenes in the following period is still unclear, but it would seem like after Pasquale Lolordo was murdered in January of 1929, Aiello was able to negotiate a truce with Capone and his allies in Chicago in the Spring of 1929 and probably became boss for a period. This situation didn’t last long and per Bonanno, Aiello got chased out of Chicago early in 1930 and had to seek refuge in Buffalo under Magaddino’s protection. While Maranzano and Magaddino reportedly warned Aiello to not return to Chicago, he didn’t listen and went back in October 1930 and was apparently almost immediately betrayed by his own paesano and former partner to Capone’s men.

By the time that Aiello was forced to shelter under Magaddino, I think it can be assumed that he no longer had a valid claim to the throne in Chicago (he probably still thought he was boss in his own mind, hence his suicidal return to Chicago). Capone wasn’t yet in the position to get himself installed officially as boss, however, as there was an active war at the national level in the mafia. Gentile tells us that Capone used Totó LoVerde as rappresentante to represent his interests during the political maneuvering in this period (stating that since LoVerde was a Palermitano, he was more palatable as a representative for Chicago at this time). So far as we know, Luciano and Capone tired of Masseria’s leadership as the war dragged on, and then set him up to be killed, thereby putting themselves in the position of being able to directly negotiate an end to the war with Maranzano, resulting in Luciano and Capone receiving official recognition as boss of the Masseria and Chicago Families in turn for recognizing Maranzano as capo dei capi (though as noted above, Capone appears to have essentially won the local war in Chicago in terms of all but official recognition in 1930).

The above accounts come from insiders who were directly party to some of the critical events of this period connected to the Chicago conflicts and thus their accounts provide vital insight into the inner organizational politics that lay behind the spectacular bloodshed in the streets over the years. The outsider accounts that have informed almost all of the historiography on this period in Chicago over the years, without access to this perspective, have been like the “blind men with the elephant” in comparison.

[Eline2015]

I little confused about so-called "Genna's war". I knew, that two or three Gennas were members of the mafia. So, guys like Ammatuna, Tropea, Bascone, Spano and others were just associates, worked on Genna? And Genna were killed, as they people, because they want to outtroned the Lombardo?

[Ivan]

Thanks for typing that out, Tony.

Will there ever be a decent Capone book that incorporates the above? In light of all this, the ones that are out are pretty dated.

[PolackTony]

I little confused about so-called "Genna's war". I knew, that two or three Gennas were members of the mafia. So, guys like Ammatuna, Tropea, Bascone, Spano and others were just associates, worked on Genna? And Genna were killed, as they people, because they want to outtroned the Lombardo?

Believe me, I’ve been looking into it for a while and I’m more than a little confused still myself. There’s a lot we don’t know for a fact and so we have to theorize a bit.

Gentile tells us that the Gennas mounted a rebellion in 1925 against the rule of Lombardo and Aiello. He was then sent with some other bosses by the Gran Consiglio to resolve the conflict, which he says they were successfully in working out. Gentile doesn’t mention anything about Tropea and Amatuna in his account, so we don’t have an insider perspective to tell us exactly how that related to the Genna rebellion. What little we know points to the Gennas being double-crossed by some of their own men (Bascone and Spano, for example, were both Trapanesi), who then in turn were alleged to have been executed by the “council” that ruled the Chicago mafia (which the papers at the time time stated was said by sources to be called the “Sicilian Quarto” or “Quattro”). So my best guess at this point is that the Genna rebellion against Lombardo got resolved by the Gran Consiglio, and then after that truce some of Gennas’ own men seized the opportunity to continue pursuing an attempt at taking over the Family (perhaps they thought the Gennas were weak for agreeing to a truce? Who knows). If Tropea, Spano, and Amatuna had went up against the Gennas with the support of the Family’s leadership, I doubt that they would’ve all wound up murdered right after, which is what leads me to believe that they were killed for mounting either a continued or second rebellion.

Generally, we have no actual confirmation of exactly which guys were made and who weren’t. Chicago had a ton of wild Sicilian criminals as well as sophisticated “Alta mafia”‘types, but as to which were made and which were associates, we have no way of knowing in most cases. We know the bosses, and in Aiello’s case we know the underboss at that time, but that’s pretty much it (apart from Diamond Joe Esposito, who Gentile identified as made). Given that they seemed to have been trying to seize control of the mafia, I think it’s a safe bet that Tropea and Amatuna were made. There’s a good a chance I think that guys like Spano and later Lucchese capodecina Giuseppe Abbate (who was close to Amatuna at this time) could’ve been made already back in Marsala. Bascone was alleged to have been connected to the “highest councils of the mafia”, so maybe he was made, but who really knows. With Bascone, police were unsure whether he was killed in retaliation for Henry Spingola or in retaliation for Tropea. His widow told the cops that he was close to both Angelo Genna and Tropea. But then, if there had been a split between Tropea and some guys who remained Genna loyalists, which side was Bascone on?

There’s a lot that we don’t know and probably never will. How large was the Chicago Family? We aren’t even sure how many members they had in the 1960s, and really have no idea what it could have been in the 1920s. Did they have 100? Did they have 20? How would we know? Chicago had a large Sicilian population with a long-standing mafia tradition going back decades by this point, but they also never had the dynamic (multiple Families in the same territory) that presumably led to the NYC Families inducting huge numbers of guys in comparison with Families elsewhere in the US and Sicily. So they could’ve had a very large membership (in 1926 the papers and immigration officials were claiming that there were hundreds of “Sicilian gunmen”, including many illegally in the country, running around Chicago), but I see no reason to believe that they ever had any incentive to do so. When we see reports from the 1910s or 20s of like 15 Sicilians arrested in Chicago in a room with a bunch of guns, bombs, and alcohol or counterfeit money, were all of those guys made? Were half? Was one, and the others guys all worked under him? Were none, and they all answered to some other guy who owned a bank or was the President of a paesani society and never made the papers as a criminal? Again, we typically have absolutely no idea.

[PolackTony]

Thanks for typing that out, Tony.

Will there ever be a decent Capone book that incorporates the above? In light of all this, the ones that are out are pretty dated.

We here at the BHF are the book, man. The Chicago threads here contain tons of information and high quality discussion beyond any of the books out there when it comes to the Chicago stuff (across eras), but it’s just not synthesized into a single neat account in one place.

[Ivan]

Thanks for typing that out, Tony.

Will there ever be a decent Capone book that incorporates the above? In light of all this, the ones that are out are pretty dated.

We here at the BHF are the book, man. The Chicago threads here contain tons of information and high quality discussion beyond any of the books out there when it comes to the Chicago stuff (across eras), but it’s just not synthesized into a single neat account in one place.

You old enough to remember when people said Capone was unrelated to the Mafia and was just an independent racketeer who happened to be Italian, and that his outfit gradually "evolved" to be recognized as a family but was still quite different in character from the rest?

[Eline2015]

Thanks Tony. I still do not understand the moment with Henry Spingola. We know that he was a Calabrian and supposedly invited Ricca from NY to Chicago. Also, as far as is known, Riccaa lived and worked as a waiter in a cafe with his uncle in NY, who was also supposedly a Calabrian and was in conflict with the Camorra. That is, Ricca, who was associated with the honoured society in Campania, had relatives among the Calabrians and through their network got to Chicago, where he worked for the comorrist mafioso Esposito. Tony i also wanted to ask which Sam Aiello in this photo opposed the war with Capone.

[PolackTony]

Thanks for typing that out, Tony.

Will there ever be a decent Capone book that incorporates the above? In light of all this, the ones that are out are pretty dated.

We here at the BHF are the book, man. The Chicago threads here contain tons of information and high quality discussion beyond any of the books out there when it comes to the Chicago stuff (across eras), but it’s just not synthesized into a single neat account in one place.

You old enough to remember when people said Capone was unrelated to the Mafia and was just an independent racketeer who happened to be Italian, and that his outfit gradually "evolved" to be recognized as a family but was still quite different in character from the rest?

Old enough? Bro, go to YouTube and Reddit and they’re still saying it all the time. Some of them just don’t know any better, but I’ve had people tell me, when I inform them that Gentile and Bonanno both knew Capone and said that he was made, reply “well they were either mistaken or they were lying about it”. Others will persist in claiming that none of the evidence matters because Capone was Napolitan’ and the mafia didn’t make non-Sicilians until after 1931. If you reply with examples like Frankie Yale and Vito Genovese, they still don’t care. Lol. For whatever reason, you have some guys out there for whom this Chicago mythology stuff seems to be really personal for them, like they identify with it or something. They don’t listen to reason, don’t care about evidence, and will just keep popping up like whack-a-moles.

[Ivan]

Thanks for typing that out, Tony.

Will there ever be a decent Capone book that incorporates the above? In light of all this, the ones that are out are pretty dated.

We here at the BHF are the book, man. The Chicago threads here contain tons of information and high quality discussion beyond any of the books out there when it comes to the Chicago stuff (across eras), but it’s just not synthesized into a single neat account in one place.

You old enough to remember when people said Capone was unrelated to the Mafia and was just an independent racketeer who happened to be Italian, and that his outfit gradually "evolved" to be recognized as a family but was still quite different in character from the rest?

Old enough? Bro, go to YouTube and Reddit and they’re still saying it all the time. Some of them just don’t know any better, but I’ve had people tell me, when I inform them that Gentile and Bonanno both knew Capone and said that he was made, reply “well they were either mistaken or they were lying about it”. Others will persist in claiming that none of the evidence matters because Capone was Napolitan’ and the mafia didn’t make non-Sicilians until after 1931. If you reply with examples like Frankie Yale and Vito Genovese, they still don’t care. Lol. For whatever reason, you have some guys out there for whom this Chicago mythology stuff seems to be really personal for them, like they identify with it or something. They don’t listen to reason, don’t care about evidence, and will just keep popping up like whack-a-moles.

Hahaha see I never read anything outside this forum or highly credible sources (e.g. Anastasia, Capeci, and, god bless 'em, the fucking FBI) so I miss out on the retardation. Thus I thought that way of thinking was on the way out. Honestly the only thing other forums are good for, at least as far as I'm concerned, is rare photos. They actually do deliver quite often when it comes to that. Of course they then say the dumbest shit possible about the rare photos they find, but hey that ain't the photos' fault

Anyway, one weird thing about those older books is that they always make Joe Aiello sound like some random nut. There seems to have been more to him than that.

[PolackTony]

Thanks for typing that out, Tony.

Will there ever be a decent Capone book that incorporates the above? In light of all this, the ones that are out are pretty dated.

We here at the BHF are the book, man. The Chicago threads here contain tons of information and high quality discussion beyond any of the books out there when it comes to the Chicago stuff (across eras), but it’s just not synthesized into a single neat account in one place.

You old enough to remember when people said Capone was unrelated to the Mafia and was just an independent racketeer who happened to be Italian, and that his outfit gradually "evolved" to be recognized as a family but was still quite different in character from the rest?

Old enough? Bro, go to YouTube and Reddit and they’re still saying it all the time. Some of them just don’t know any better, but I’ve had people tell me, when I inform them that Gentile and Bonanno both knew Capone and said that he was made, reply “well they were either mistaken or they were lying about it”. Others will persist in claiming that none of the evidence matters because Capone was Napolitan’ and the mafia didn’t make non-Sicilians until after 1931. If you reply with examples like Frankie Yale and Vito Genovese, they still don’t care. Lol. For whatever reason, you have some guys out there for whom this Chicago mythology stuff seems to be really personal for them, like they identify with it or something. They don’t listen to reason, don’t care about evidence, and will just keep popping up like whack-a-moles.

Hahaha see I never read anything outside this forum or highly credible sources (e.g. Anastasia, Capeci, and, god bless 'em, the fucking FBI) so I miss out on the retardation. Thus I thought that way of thinking was on the way out. Honestly the only thing other forums are good for, at least as far as I'm concerned, is rare photos. They actually do deliver quite often when it comes to that. Of course they then say the dumbest shit possible about the rare photos they find, but hey that ain't the photos' fault

Anyway, one weird thing about those older books is that they always make Joe Aiello sound like some random nut. There seems to have been more to him than that.

Oh yeah, you can find some great photos and once in a while even some quality posts on those other forums. YouTube, for example, brings out legions of bottom feeders, but you also get random people that are from connected families and really knew people and have great stories. Reddit is mostly mouth breathers, but there was one great photo of Joey Lombardo in St Tropez that some random guy posted. Guy said he was on the trip as he was from the old neighborhood, and I think he was legit as that photo was a personal photo and had never appeared anywhere else that I saw. Guy also said that when they were in the airport in France some European dudes in suits showed up and treated Joey with great respect, and that Joey went off with them for several days on his own. Despite all of the phonies and trolls out there, there are of course people that really knew these guys and they have the internet like everyone else, so once in a while you get something cool.

Regarding Aiello, his photos with the Manson Lamps definitely help to serve the idea that he was a nut. But he was far from a random nut. Gentile’s account is really important as we know that he was the sottocapo under Lombardo (he was also a business partner of Lombardo at that time, though they later seem to have had a falling out). He was the apparent head of an important paesani group in Chicago, the Bagheresi, who also had close ties to Milwaukee (decades later, in the 60s, Union official and Chicago member Little Joe Aiello, apparently a nephew or cousin, was still President of the Società San Giuseppe di Bagheria in Chicago) and was clearly a powerful and respected leader in the mafia, who was able to secure close ties and backing from the Castellammarese faction nationally. Because he lost, we just see him as the guy who Capone took out, but he presumably had a legitimate claim to the boss spot as the former underboss, and it seemed that he was able to get a peace settlement in his favor in 1929 that allowed him to become boss. The eruption of open hostilities in the Castellammarese War presumably led to a renewal of fighting between him and the Capone faction, but at least for a period he must’ve had some real base of support.