Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[NickleCity]

^^^^
And while a trial date was set, Bongiovanni’s attorney James P. Harrington successfully argued for more time to prepare a motion seeking a separate trial for his client. Harrington said some of the charges against Gerace have nothing to do with Bongiovanni.

[chin_gigante]

D Violi said that he learned that New York has called Todaro to come and be a part of the commission.

Reading through this article now, it's really interesting. This part in particular stood out to me. In the notes this information is cited as coming from a Project Otremens debrief report dated December 6, 2016.

Leonard Falzone died of natural causes on November 12, 2016, so the timing of this conversation makes me wonder whether this was actually in reference to Todaro being offered a commission seat or if it's a case of the telephone game. I think it's plausible this could have simply been about (at least some) New York families recognising Todaro as official boss of Buffalo following Falzone's death.

[Newyorkempire]

D Violi said that he learned that New York has called Todaro to come and be a part of the commission.

Reading through this article now, it's really interesting. This part in particular stood out to me. In the notes this information is cited as coming from a Project Otremens debrief report dated December 6, 2016.

Leonard Falzone died of natural causes on November 12, 2016, so the timing of this conversation makes me wonder whether this was actually in reference to Todaro being offered a commission seat or if it's a case of the telephone game. I think it's plausible this could have simply been about (at least some) New York families recognising Todaro as official boss of Buffalo following Falzone's death.

Then the argument would go back to Falzone being in control of a "dead" family for 8-10 years before his death and why would NY need to know about a family that wasnt there.

[Newyorkempire]

BUFFALO NEWS TOP STORY

Trial date set for strip club owner, ex-DEA agent in organized crime case

A trial date for two key defendants in the federal government’s years-long investigation into Buffalo organized crime has been set for June 21.

See: https://buffalonews.com/news/local/tria ... -top-story

Would thing Nigro would be put on the stand by the prosecution and pushed to talk about what she was told from or overheard from her ex husband when it came to OC.

[NickleCity]

BUFFALO NEWS TOP STORY

Trial date set for strip club owner, ex-DEA agent in organized crime case

A trial date for two key defendants in the federal government’s years-long investigation into Buffalo organized crime has been set for June 21.

See: https://buffalonews.com/news/local/tria ... -top-story

Would thing Nigro would be put on the stand by the prosecution and pushed to talk about what she was told from or overheard from her ex husband when it came to OC.

Reading between the lines it appears she would like to testify. Also appears Gerace’s attorney have been hard at work to question her credibility if/when she does testify.

[johnny_scootch]

Id have to see that evidence. Could have sworn I read they made each other in some article but anyways...

I think you’re confusing Stanfa with Natale. Natale was made by Merlino, Merlino was made by Stanfa and Stanfa was made in Sicily or by Bruno in Philly.

[Newyorkempire]

Id have to see that evidence. Could have sworn I read they made each other in some article but anyways...

I think you’re confusing Stanfa with Natale. Natale was made by Merlino, Merlino was made by Stanfa and Stanfa was made in Sicily or by Bruno in Philly.

Ah ok. Got it.

[UTC]

The term "Italian Organized Crime" is absolutely absurd and meaningless to me if it doesn't mean LCN. If I commit crimes on a regular basis with 12 friends of mine, all of whom happen to be of Italian American descent, and we only work together, we may constitute a RICO enterprise but I don't see how anyone could rationally call us Italian Organized Crime. There's nothing about it that relates to Italy or a historical Italian criminal society. To me IOC is just a PC way to say mafia to dramatize the case and prejudice the defendants even if you don't have proof.

[Newyorkempire]

The term "Italian Organized Crime" is absolutely absurd and meaningless to me if it doesn't mean LCN. If I commit crimes on a regular basis with 12 friends of mine, all of whom happen to be of Italian American descent, and we only work together, we may constitute a RICO enterprise but I don't see how anyone could rationally call us Italian Organized Crime. There's nothing about it that relates to Italy or a historical Italian criminal society. To me IOC is just a PC way to say mafia to dramatize the case and prejudice the defendants even if you don't have proof.

If your grandfather was a powerful boss, you commit crimes out of your stripclub using Outlaws as enforcement, have already done time on traditional OC rackets, your friends are associates of organized crime, you have cops and politicians in your back pocket, and you are at odds with your uncle who happens to be the current boss then you might be seen as IOC/mafia.

You and your friends are not even close to any comparison you are trying to make even if youre Italian and commit crimes together

[UTC]

You missed the point entirely. As you stated "IOC/Mafia". What is the distinction between IOC and mafia? How can one be IOC and not mafia/LCN?
You described an LCN crew in my opinion, and if they are not an LCN crew they are not "Italian Organized Crime". The latter is a meaningless term that was just recently made up.

[Newyorkempire]

You missed the point entirely. As you stated "IOC/Mafia". What is the distinction between IOC and mafia? How can one be IOC and not mafia/LCN?

In one they have to prove membership in the traditional organization that has been known to have top down leadership over all the players who are Italian for many years and in the the other they dont, just the assumption they operate within the ideals, nostalgia, branding and model of what once was the stronger of the two.

Again, with all the guys charged, to the lesser exception being Bella, were gangsters, with ties to the old guard who operated like they were/are in the mafia. I.e. IOC

[UTC]

That's exactly what I said. Making up the term IOC is a way to attempt to dilute their burden of proof. I don't see a valid distinction between IOC and LCN. If me and all my friends were former associates of LCN or rats in Witsec, and formed our own criminal group, that's not IOC. Our group was not derived from Italy. We're American gangsters.

[Newyorkempire]

That's exactly what I said. Making up the term IOC is a way to attempt to dilute their burden of proof. I don't see a valid distinction between IOC and LCN. If me and all my friends were former associates of LCN or rats in Witsec, and formed our own criminal group, that's not IOC.

Definitely a way to dilute no doubt.

But, if you, per se, were the grandson and nephew of a past boss and current boss and started your own criminal group you actually would meet the thresh of being IOC. If you were an associate to an LCN with no family ties and your leader died and if you had ambition to keep that crew going and expand and were recognized by other criminals as a formidable group you would again meet the thresh of being IOC. If you want to rep the flag and your past connects to develop your own reputation that was once created because of LCN you would be IOC.

Its a distinction to show loose unity of what should be the next generation of LCN members if everything went according to historical norms and for the FBI field office here to keep funding going for the next 20 years so agents dont get transfered to the Mexican border.

[UTC]

Well you're defining a newly minted litigation term in a way that fits your opinion and makes sense to you. It's just a term the prosecution made up to help their case. There is no criminology background to the term IOC other than a catchall way of discussing the mafia, Camorra, 'Ndrahgheta, etc. I fully understand what you're saying, but I don't think IOC is a legitimate good faith term with real meaning. It's a way for the jury to think "mafia". I could buy "former mafia", but "former" doesn't sound good to a prosecutor.

[UTC]

Oh what the hell. We know what we're talking about. A nomenclature debate I guess.