General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Patrickgold]

If its agreed that he was their muscle and not their brains then he likely was not the formal operational boss for Chicago. I don't get the sense that they elevate brawn without brains, especially over an operation as vital as the Vegas skim.

LV mob history cant gloss over or understate Spilotro's wide influence. Regardless of whether or not he was or wasn't their rep, it falls under operational, it's just as important as organizational. Without the latter, there would be no mafia.

But organizationally, he was a soldier in the Grand Ave Crew, the Outfit didn't take him out of the rank of soldier and give him some special office above soldier but below capo. It takes nothing away from him just like it doesn't from Roselli whom Fratianno quoted as saying: "there are soldiers and then there are soldiers."

Families do give members specific duties within their operations. You either are Gotti's rep or heading up gambling or you're not. It would be dangerous for a member to say "I'm Gotti's official rep" or "The gambling house was officially given to me," when they weren't granted the authority by superiors to do so. It could be a capital offense to "misrepresent" your family-given authority within the operational.

-

Question, were there other "active" members residing and operating/working in Vegas during the Spilotro era?

There were some charts had him above other capos. He was a special liaison to Aiuppa it seemed. Michael Spilotro Jr is a strong advocate of trying to prove Tony was more than a Soldier. He even goes as far as saying he was the heir in line to Aiuppa and that is why he was killed

[B.]

Doesn't seem to be much debate over his rank given the ruse used to kill him involved a promotion to captain. People can't seem to resist inventing rumors about Chicago's formal hierarchy.

One of the 1970s informants felt Spilotro would have to settle for the position of soldier for some time due to his age. The context suggests he was seen as a potential captain in the future though.



He felt Spilotro gained a lot of his influence via Alderisio.

[PolackTony]

If its agreed that he was their muscle and not their brains then he likely was not the formal operational boss for Chicago. I don't get the sense that they elevate brawn without brains, especially over an operation as vital as the Vegas skim.

LV mob history cant gloss over or understate Spilotro's wide influence. Regardless of whether or not he was or wasn't their rep, it falls under operational, it's just as important as organizational. Without the latter, there would be no mafia.

But organizationally, he was a soldier in the Grand Ave Crew, the Outfit didn't take him out of the rank of soldier and give him some special office above soldier but below capo. It takes nothing away from him just like it doesn't from Roselli whom Fratianno quoted as saying: "there are soldiers and then there are soldiers."

Families do give members specific duties within their operations. You either are Gotti's rep or heading up gambling or you're not. It would be dangerous for a member to say "I'm Gotti's official rep" or "The gambling house was officially given to me," when they weren't granted the authority by superiors to do so. It could be a capital offense to "misrepresent" your family-given authority within the operational.

-

Question, were there other "active" members residing and operating/working in Vegas during the Spilotro era?

There were some charts had him above other capos. He was a special liaison to Aiuppa it seemed. Michael Spilotro Jr is a strong advocate of trying to prove Tony was more than a Soldier. He even goes as far as saying he was the heir in line to Aiuppa and that is why he was killed

On the prison tapes, Frankie C told Frankie Jr that Tony “ruined” Michael and had his brother convinced that he was a boss.

A question to ask here is, how much of our assumptions about Spilotro have been shaped by Culotta? In the sense of the Pileggi book and the movie coloring what we think was really happening. If Tony had Michael thinking he was a “boss”, I’m sure that he had Culotta’s head all gassed up, to the point that Culotta even started claiming that Tony “made” him out in LV.

Seems likely to me that Spilotro’s primary value to the admin was his capacity for violence. Fosco’s claim that Tony wasn’t trusted with any serious responsibility in Chicago, while we know that he was tasked with murders, would fit this picture. Perhaps he was “sent” to Vegas as muscle to keep guys off of Lefty, perhaps he just floated out there on his own as he was seeking more autonomy and racket opportunities for himself. I could see either scenario being plausible, but I don’t see any good reason to assert that Spilotro was necessarily any sort of operational boss over Vegas.

We have bosses on tape from all over the country from Civella to Balistreri to Lonardo on tape talking about Spilotro as if he were Chicago when those rackets were going on in Vegas. He was critical to all of the major players in the Teamsters loans and very close with all of them in Vegas.

Spilotro “was Chicago”, Fosco’s claim isn’t disputing that. He was a member of the Chicago Family. As Angelo noted, unless Tony was shelved, he was a member in good standing and thus it shouldn’t be surprising that he would’ve had things going on, associates working in a “crew” under him, and was a touchstone for members in other Families to network with in Vegas. None of that implies, however, that Spilotro was necessarily placed in charge of anything in Vegas by the Chicago admin.

It might be a useful exercise here to compile and verify exactly what every member source that we have actually said about Spilotro. I recall Bomp, for example, talking about Tony having been involved in hits including the Seifert hit (I need to go back and check, but IIRC Bomp stated that Spilotro told him that he was in the Seifert hit and was worried about being identified by Seifert’s wife). But I don’t recall that Bomp gave any real insight into what Tony was doing in Vegas and whether he was really “in charge” of anything. Did any member sources actually confirm or echo the Culotta account that Tony was put in charge of Vegas by the Chicago admin?

We know that in ‘74, Bomp confirmed that Spilotro was a soldier under Lombardo. He seems to have come up as a protege under Alderisio, and thus it should be no surprise that Spilotro was close to the major players around the Teamsters pension fund, given his relationships with the above two guys. As B noted, Tony was clearly still a soldier in ‘86 when he was lured with the ruse of being bumped up to capo. Now, was he still under Lombardo/Eboli by this point? Or, after Lombardo got locked up, was he assigned to another captain of to the admin? If Tony was direct with the admin, this can also give outsiders the impression that he had a ranking position even if he was a soldier. We’ve seen how the intel from Bomp that Alderisio was actually a solider direct with Giancana, at least up until ‘66 presumably, can complicate our assumptions about Alderisio’s position.

I’m agnostic personally about this Spilotro question, as well as whatever personal motivations that Fosco had for making this claim recently. I could see things going multiple ways. But overall, as I’ve become more keen to drill into who and what our sources of inside information on Chicago have been, I’ve become increasingly skeptical and conservative about claims that rest on long held assumptions, as I believe that many of these assumptions have been unsupported or outright incorrect. So, again, what do we actually know about Spilotro from member sources, and how much of what we feel is plausible or not plausible when evaluating Fosco’s claim is shaped by Culotta’s account of Spilotro and the context for his move to Vegas?

[B.]

I don't know what all the evidence is for/against/otherwise but with this subject people like to say that someone was "sent" to a certain location like it's part of a master plan. Often that turns out not to be the case or at least isn't supported by hard evidence. It's one of those myths that plays into people's assumptions about how the mafia works and I'm skeptical when I read that someone was "sent" somewhere even though it has happened on occasion.

[NorthBuffalo]

If its agreed that he was their muscle and not their brains then he likely was not the formal operational boss for Chicago. I don't get the sense that they elevate brawn without brains, especially over an operation as vital as the Vegas skim.

LV mob history cant gloss over or understate Spilotro's wide influence. Regardless of whether or not he was or wasn't their rep, it falls under operational, it's just as important as organizational. Without the latter, there would be no mafia.

But organizationally, he was a soldier in the Grand Ave Crew, the Outfit didn't take him out of the rank of soldier and give him some special office above soldier but below capo. It takes nothing away from him just like it doesn't from Roselli whom Fratianno quoted as saying: "there are soldiers and then there are soldiers."

Families do give members specific duties within their operations. You either are Gotti's rep or heading up gambling or you're not. It would be dangerous for a member to say "I'm Gotti's official rep" or "The gambling house was officially given to me," when they weren't granted the authority by superiors to do so. It could be a capital offense to "misrepresent" your family-given authority within the operational.

-

Question, were there other "active" members residing and operating/working in Vegas during the Spilotro era?

There were some charts had him above other capos. He was a special liaison to Aiuppa it seemed. Michael Spilotro Jr is a strong advocate of trying to prove Tony was more than a Soldier. He even goes as far as saying he was the heir in line to Aiuppa and that is why he was killed

On the prison tapes, Frankie C told Frankie Jr that Tony “ruined” Michael and had his brother convinced that he was a boss.

A question to ask here is, how much of our assumptions about Spilotro have been shaped by Culotta? In the sense of the Pileggi book and the movie coloring what we think was really happening. If Tony had Michael thinking he was a “boss”, I’m sure that he had Culotta’s head all gassed up, to the point that Culotta even started claiming that Tony “made” him out in LV.

Seems likely to me that Spilotro’s primary value to the admin was his capacity for violence. Fosco’s claim that Tony wasn’t trusted with any serious responsibility in Chicago, while we know that he was tasked with murders, would fit this picture. Perhaps he was “sent” to Vegas as muscle to keep guys off of Lefty, perhaps he just floated out there on his own as he was seeking more autonomy and racket opportunities for himself. I could see either scenario being plausible, but I don’t see any good reason to assert that Spilotro was necessarily any sort of operational boss over Vegas.

We have bosses on tape from all over the country from Civella to Balistreri to Lonardo on tape talking about Spilotro as if he were Chicago when those rackets were going on in Vegas. He was critical to all of the major players in the Teamsters loans and very close with all of them in Vegas.

Spilotro “was Chicago”, Fosco’s claim isn’t disputing that. He was a member of the Chicago Family. As Angelo noted, unless Tony was shelved, he was a member in good standing and thus it shouldn’t be surprising that he would’ve had things going on, associates working in a “crew” under him, and was a touchstone for members in other Families to network with in Vegas. None of that implies, however, that Spilotro was necessarily placed in charge of anything in Vegas by the Chicago admin.

It might be a useful exercise here to compile and verify exactly what every member source that we have actually said about Spilotro. I recall Bomp, for example, talking about Tony having been involved in hits including the Seifert hit (I need to go back and check, but IIRC Bomp stated that Spilotro told him that he was in the Seifert hit and was worried about being identified by Seifert’s wife). But I don’t recall that Bomp gave any real insight into what Tony was doing in Vegas and whether he was really “in charge” of anything. Did any member sources actually confirm or echo the Culotta account that Tony was put in charge of Vegas by the Chicago admin?

We know that in ‘74, Bomp confirmed that Spilotro was a soldier under Lombardo. He seems to have come up as a protege under Alderisio, and thus it should be no surprise that Spilotro was close to the major players around the Teamsters pension fund, given his relationships with the above two guys. As B noted, Tony was clearly still a soldier in ‘86 when he was lured with the ruse of being bumped up to capo. Now, was he still under Lombardo/Eboli by this point? Or, after Lombardo got locked up, was he assigned to another captain of to the admin? If Tony was direct with the admin, this can also give outsiders the impression that he had a ranking position even if he was a soldier. We’ve seen how the intel from Bomp that Alderisio was actually a solider direct with Giancana, at least up until ‘66 presumably, can complicate our assumptions about Alderisio’s position.

I’m agnostic personally about this Spilotro question, as well as whatever personal motivations that Fosco had for making this claim recently. I could see things going multiple ways. But overall, as I’ve become more keen to drill into who and what our sources of inside information on Chicago have been, I’ve become increasingly skeptical and conservative about claims that rest on long held assumptions, as I believe that many of these assumptions have been unsupported or outright incorrect. So, again, what do we actually know about Spilotro from member sources, and how much of what we feel is plausible or not plausible when evaluating Fosco’s claim is shaped by Culotta’s account of Spilotro and the context for his move to Vegas?

What Fosco is asserting is that indeed, Spilotro was a brokester whose juice dried up in Chicago and was forced to go to Vegas to make a living. He says very clearly that Spilotro was not involved in the Vegas skim. I just think its clear the evidence shows thats entirely false.

[Frank]

I agree with Polack 100%.

[PolackTony]

If its agreed that he was their muscle and not their brains then he likely was not the formal operational boss for Chicago. I don't get the sense that they elevate brawn without brains, especially over an operation as vital as the Vegas skim.

LV mob history cant gloss over or understate Spilotro's wide influence. Regardless of whether or not he was or wasn't their rep, it falls under operational, it's just as important as organizational. Without the latter, there would be no mafia.

But organizationally, he was a soldier in the Grand Ave Crew, the Outfit didn't take him out of the rank of soldier and give him some special office above soldier but below capo. It takes nothing away from him just like it doesn't from Roselli whom Fratianno quoted as saying: "there are soldiers and then there are soldiers."

Families do give members specific duties within their operations. You either are Gotti's rep or heading up gambling or you're not. It would be dangerous for a member to say "I'm Gotti's official rep" or "The gambling house was officially given to me," when they weren't granted the authority by superiors to do so. It could be a capital offense to "misrepresent" your family-given authority within the operational.

-

Question, were there other "active" members residing and operating/working in Vegas during the Spilotro era?

There were some charts had him above other capos. He was a special liaison to Aiuppa it seemed. Michael Spilotro Jr is a strong advocate of trying to prove Tony was more than a Soldier. He even goes as far as saying he was the heir in line to Aiuppa and that is why he was killed

On the prison tapes, Frankie C told Frankie Jr that Tony “ruined” Michael and had his brother convinced that he was a boss.

A question to ask here is, how much of our assumptions about Spilotro have been shaped by Culotta? In the sense of the Pileggi book and the movie coloring what we think was really happening. If Tony had Michael thinking he was a “boss”, I’m sure that he had Culotta’s head all gassed up, to the point that Culotta even started claiming that Tony “made” him out in LV.

Seems likely to me that Spilotro’s primary value to the admin was his capacity for violence. Fosco’s claim that Tony wasn’t trusted with any serious responsibility in Chicago, while we know that he was tasked with murders, would fit this picture. Perhaps he was “sent” to Vegas as muscle to keep guys off of Lefty, perhaps he just floated out there on his own as he was seeking more autonomy and racket opportunities for himself. I could see either scenario being plausible, but I don’t see any good reason to assert that Spilotro was necessarily any sort of operational boss over Vegas.

We have bosses on tape from all over the country from Civella to Balistreri to Lonardo on tape talking about Spilotro as if he were Chicago when those rackets were going on in Vegas. He was critical to all of the major players in the Teamsters loans and very close with all of them in Vegas.

Spilotro “was Chicago”, Fosco’s claim isn’t disputing that. He was a member of the Chicago Family. As Angelo noted, unless Tony was shelved, he was a member in good standing and thus it shouldn’t be surprising that he would’ve had things going on, associates working in a “crew” under him, and was a touchstone for members in other Families to network with in Vegas. None of that implies, however, that Spilotro was necessarily placed in charge of anything in Vegas by the Chicago admin.

It might be a useful exercise here to compile and verify exactly what every member source that we have actually said about Spilotro. I recall Bomp, for example, talking about Tony having been involved in hits including the Seifert hit (I need to go back and check, but IIRC Bomp stated that Spilotro told him that he was in the Seifert hit and was worried about being identified by Seifert’s wife). But I don’t recall that Bomp gave any real insight into what Tony was doing in Vegas and whether he was really “in charge” of anything. Did any member sources actually confirm or echo the Culotta account that Tony was put in charge of Vegas by the Chicago admin?

We know that in ‘74, Bomp confirmed that Spilotro was a soldier under Lombardo. He seems to have come up as a protege under Alderisio, and thus it should be no surprise that Spilotro was close to the major players around the Teamsters pension fund, given his relationships with the above two guys. As B noted, Tony was clearly still a soldier in ‘86 when he was lured with the ruse of being bumped up to capo. Now, was he still under Lombardo/Eboli by this point? Or, after Lombardo got locked up, was he assigned to another captain of to the admin? If Tony was direct with the admin, this can also give outsiders the impression that he had a ranking position even if he was a soldier. We’ve seen how the intel from Bomp that Alderisio was actually a solider direct with Giancana, at least up until ‘66 presumably, can complicate our assumptions about Alderisio’s position.

I’m agnostic personally about this Spilotro question, as well as whatever personal motivations that Fosco had for making this claim recently. I could see things going multiple ways. But overall, as I’ve become more keen to drill into who and what our sources of inside information on Chicago have been, I’ve become increasingly skeptical and conservative about claims that rest on long held assumptions, as I believe that many of these assumptions have been unsupported or outright incorrect. So, again, what do we actually know about Spilotro from member sources, and how much of what we feel is plausible or not plausible when evaluating Fosco’s claim is shaped by Culotta’s account of Spilotro and the context for his move to Vegas?

What Fosco is asserting is that indeed, Spilotro was a brokester whose juice dried up in Chicago and was forced to go to Vegas to make a living. He says very clearly that Spilotro was not involved in the Vegas skim. I just think its clear the evidence shows thats entirely false.

To be clear, I’m not endorsing Fosco’s claim, but I’m not quite so sure that it’s that evident that it’s obviously false. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t.m, maybe it’s partially or contextually true.

What evidence do we have that Spilotro was “involved in the Vegas skim”? In what capacity was he involved? While Lefty Rosenthal indeed started talking to the FBI in the late 70s, I haven’t yet seen any reports where he discusses Spilotro, what his responsibilities were in Vegas, and whether he had been specifically tasked with anything related to the skim operations. Rosenthal (given the code name “Achilles”) reported intel on a number of murders — including Roselli, Tamara Rand, Maniaci, Giancana, and the late 70s burglary murders — but I’m not aware that he was specifically informing about Spilotro. Obviously there were reports that I haven’t seen, but I don’t recall Rosenthal talking about Spilotro in anything that I recall reading. Angelo Lonardo obviously testified about the skim but I’m not aware that he ever mentioned Spilotro.

Just for sake of clarity and discussion, what evidence do we actually have that Fosco’s claim is “entirely false”?

[Snakes]

I have the indictment for the skim case. I seem to remember all of the subjects (as well as Turk Torello, who was deceased) being caught on wire discussing the skim or dollar amounts, which included Spilotro. I have it in paper, so I'd have to dig it up. Probably buried in a drawer somewhere...

[Frank]

Not to change the subject but was it true that Spilotro went to Accardo and campaigned to be the new Boss. Chuckie English did the same. Both ended up dead.

[NorthBuffalo]

If its agreed that he was their muscle and not their brains then he likely was not the formal operational boss for Chicago. I don't get the sense that they elevate brawn without brains, especially over an operation as vital as the Vegas skim.

LV mob history cant gloss over or understate Spilotro's wide influence. Regardless of whether or not he was or wasn't their rep, it falls under operational, it's just as important as organizational. Without the latter, there would be no mafia.

But organizationally, he was a soldier in the Grand Ave Crew, the Outfit didn't take him out of the rank of soldier and give him some special office above soldier but below capo. It takes nothing away from him just like it doesn't from Roselli whom Fratianno quoted as saying: "there are soldiers and then there are soldiers."

Families do give members specific duties within their operations. You either are Gotti's rep or heading up gambling or you're not. It would be dangerous for a member to say "I'm Gotti's official rep" or "The gambling house was officially given to me," when they weren't granted the authority by superiors to do so. It could be a capital offense to "misrepresent" your family-given authority within the operational.

-

Question, were there other "active" members residing and operating/working in Vegas during the Spilotro era?

There were some charts had him above other capos. He was a special liaison to Aiuppa it seemed. Michael Spilotro Jr is a strong advocate of trying to prove Tony was more than a Soldier. He even goes as far as saying he was the heir in line to Aiuppa and that is why he was killed

On the prison tapes, Frankie C told Frankie Jr that Tony “ruined” Michael and had his brother convinced that he was a boss.

A question to ask here is, how much of our assumptions about Spilotro have been shaped by Culotta? In the sense of the Pileggi book and the movie coloring what we think was really happening. If Tony had Michael thinking he was a “boss”, I’m sure that he had Culotta’s head all gassed up, to the point that Culotta even started claiming that Tony “made” him out in LV.

Seems likely to me that Spilotro’s primary value to the admin was his capacity for violence. Fosco’s claim that Tony wasn’t trusted with any serious responsibility in Chicago, while we know that he was tasked with murders, would fit this picture. Perhaps he was “sent” to Vegas as muscle to keep guys off of Lefty, perhaps he just floated out there on his own as he was seeking more autonomy and racket opportunities for himself. I could see either scenario being plausible, but I don’t see any good reason to assert that Spilotro was necessarily any sort of operational boss over Vegas.

We have bosses on tape from all over the country from Civella to Balistreri to Lonardo on tape talking about Spilotro as if he were Chicago when those rackets were going on in Vegas. He was critical to all of the major players in the Teamsters loans and very close with all of them in Vegas.

Spilotro “was Chicago”, Fosco’s claim isn’t disputing that. He was a member of the Chicago Family. As Angelo noted, unless Tony was shelved, he was a member in good standing and thus it shouldn’t be surprising that he would’ve had things going on, associates working in a “crew” under him, and was a touchstone for members in other Families to network with in Vegas. None of that implies, however, that Spilotro was necessarily placed in charge of anything in Vegas by the Chicago admin.

It might be a useful exercise here to compile and verify exactly what every member source that we have actually said about Spilotro. I recall Bomp, for example, talking about Tony having been involved in hits including the Seifert hit (I need to go back and check, but IIRC Bomp stated that Spilotro told him that he was in the Seifert hit and was worried about being identified by Seifert’s wife). But I don’t recall that Bomp gave any real insight into what Tony was doing in Vegas and whether he was really “in charge” of anything. Did any member sources actually confirm or echo the Culotta account that Tony was put in charge of Vegas by the Chicago admin?

We know that in ‘74, Bomp confirmed that Spilotro was a soldier under Lombardo. He seems to have come up as a protege under Alderisio, and thus it should be no surprise that Spilotro was close to the major players around the Teamsters pension fund, given his relationships with the above two guys. As B noted, Tony was clearly still a soldier in ‘86 when he was lured with the ruse of being bumped up to capo. Now, was he still under Lombardo/Eboli by this point? Or, after Lombardo got locked up, was he assigned to another captain of to the admin? If Tony was direct with the admin, this can also give outsiders the impression that he had a ranking position even if he was a soldier. We’ve seen how the intel from Bomp that Alderisio was actually a solider direct with Giancana, at least up until ‘66 presumably, can complicate our assumptions about Alderisio’s position.

I’m agnostic personally about this Spilotro question, as well as whatever personal motivations that Fosco had for making this claim recently. I could see things going multiple ways. But overall, as I’ve become more keen to drill into who and what our sources of inside information on Chicago have been, I’ve become increasingly skeptical and conservative about claims that rest on long held assumptions, as I believe that many of these assumptions have been unsupported or outright incorrect. So, again, what do we actually know about Spilotro from member sources, and how much of what we feel is plausible or not plausible when evaluating Fosco’s claim is shaped by Culotta’s account of Spilotro and the context for his move to Vegas?

What Fosco is asserting is that indeed, Spilotro was a brokester whose juice dried up in Chicago and was forced to go to Vegas to make a living. He says very clearly that Spilotro was not involved in the Vegas skim. I just think its clear the evidence shows thats entirely false.

To be clear, I’m not endorsing Fosco’s claim, but I’m not quite so sure that it’s that evident that it’s obviously false. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t.m, maybe it’s partially or contextually true.

What evidence do we have that Spilotro was “involved in the Vegas skim”? In what capacity was he involved? While Lefty Rosenthal indeed started talking to the FBI in the late 70s, I haven’t yet seen any reports where he discusses Spilotro, what his responsibilities were in Vegas, and whether he had been specifically tasked with anything related to the skim operations. Rosenthal (given the code name “Achilles”) reported intel on a number of murders — including Roselli, Tamara Rand, Maniaci, Giancana, and the late 70s burglary murders — but I’m not aware that he was specifically informing about Spilotro. Obviously there were reports that I haven’t seen, but I don’t recall Rosenthal talking about Spilotro in anything that I recall reading. Angelo Lonardo obviously testified about the skim but I’m not aware that he ever mentioned Spilotro.

Just for sake of clarity and discussion, what evidence do we actually have that Fosco’s claim is “entirely false”?

Spilotro was one of the 15 original defendants in the Fed's Argent Case. That literally was the skim operation, no? Spilotro was tied to Ponto, Stella and all of the other Teamsters out there working for the Outfit essentially delivering the money to Chicago. He was listed as the prime suspect in every murder tied to the skim from Tamara Rand to Ed Buccieri. He had his official headquarters in the lobby of one of the main casinos being skimmed - the gift shop. I just don't think there is really that much out there beyond Fosco.

The power in Vegas was access to the Teamsters - that's what Chicago had and if Spilotro was independent, they would have killed him for associating so closely with their golden egg. He was out there working for the Outfit - he wasn't banished or exiled and broke.

I'm not some Spilotro fan guy either - I'm more interested in the guys who ran things than those who did the running personally.

[PolackTony]

What Fosco is asserting is that indeed, Spilotro was a brokester whose juice dried up in Chicago and was forced to go to Vegas to make a living. He says very clearly that Spilotro was not involved in the Vegas skim. I just think its clear the evidence shows thats entirely false.

To be clear, I’m not endorsing Fosco’s claim, but I’m not quite so sure that it’s that evident that it’s obviously false. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t.m, maybe it’s partially or contextually true.

What evidence do we have that Spilotro was “involved in the Vegas skim”? In what capacity was he involved? While Lefty Rosenthal indeed started talking to the FBI in the late 70s, I haven’t yet seen any reports where he discusses Spilotro, what his responsibilities were in Vegas, and whether he had been specifically tasked with anything related to the skim operations. Rosenthal (given the code name “Achilles”) reported intel on a number of murders — including Roselli, Tamara Rand, Maniaci, Giancana, and the late 70s burglary murders — but I’m not aware that he was specifically informing about Spilotro. Obviously there were reports that I haven’t seen, but I don’t recall Rosenthal talking about Spilotro in anything that I recall reading. Angelo Lonardo obviously testified about the skim but I’m not aware that he ever mentioned Spilotro.

Just for sake of clarity and discussion, what evidence do we actually have that Fosco’s claim is “entirely false”?

Spilotro was one of the 15 original defendants in the Fed's Argent Case. That literally was the skim operation, no? Spilotro was tied to Ponto, Stella and all of the other Teamsters out there working for the Outfit essentially delivering the money to Chicago. He was listed as the prime suspect in every murder tied to the skim from Tamara Rand to Ed Buccieri. He had his official headquarters in the lobby of one of the main casinos being skimmed - the gift shop. I just don't think there is really that much out there beyond Fosco.

The power in Vegas was access to the Teamsters - that's what Chicago had and if Spilotro was independent, they would have killed him for associating so closely with their golden egg. He was out there working for the Outfit - he wasn't banished or exiled and broke.

I'm not some Spilotro fan guy either - I'm more interested in the guys who ran things than those who did the running personally.

Yes, Spilotro was one of the 15 guys indicted in 1984 for the Vegas skim, this we know. Of course, he never stood trial as he was delayed due to heart surgery in 1985 and then ran out of time. We thus never got to see what evidence the G had against him and what case they would’ve presented. Maybe there is some interesting stuff about Spilotro in the trial transcripts for the other defendants.

With respect to the murders, Spilotro was a suspect in them but may not have been responsible for all of them. For example, Rosenthal told the Feds that Spilotro, Paulie Schiro, and Joey Hansen whacked out Ed Buccieri, but that Tamara Rand was murdered by Harry Aleman and a guy named “Corky” (probably Porky Poradyla). But, even if Spilotro was responsible for every murder in the state of Nevada, I’m not sure how that would be proof that he was in charge of the skim operations or had any other specific operational responsibilities, as opposed to simply being a Chicago member living in the area who was ordered to carry out hits.

Now, just to be clear what we’re all talking about. You had previously stated above that Fosco “says very clearly that Spilotro was not involved in the Vegas skim”. Since Fosco isn’t here to defend himself, we should note that in the quote that Antiliar provided from Fosco, he does not say that Spilotro was not “involved” in any capacity with the skim operations, but rather that Spilotro was not the “boss of LV” or the “Outfit’s agent to oversee LV”. Presumably, if Fosco wanted to make a different claim, he would’ve. By the same token, neither Fosco nor anyone else that I’m aware of has claimed that Spilotro was somehow “independent” of Chicago or “banished or exiled”.

As has already been noted, presuming that Spilotro had not been shelved (which Fosco neither states nor insinuates), he was a Chicago member in good standing who had connections to both members of other Families as well as Union and casino people. From what we know, Tony relocated to Vegas in 1971. Fosco doesn’t imply that he was necessarily a “brokester”, either, just that he wasn’t “being relied on for anything serious in Chicago” that time and made a move to LV for new opportunities. We know from multiple CIs in the 1960s and early 1970s that a lot of guys in Chicagoland were struggling to maintain income from racket operations as local and Federal LE pressure had contributed to declines in the operation of traditional rackets like gambling and juice (to the extent that it was alleged that tensions were ratcheting up between crews as guys were competing over a shrinking pie of revenue streams). In this context, an ambitious and aggressive soldier like Spilotro could well have realized that there was a lot of untapped potential to tax rackets in a place like Vegas and went out there without being either “sent” for any instrumental purpose or “banished” by the Family’s admin.

This is why I’d like to know exactly what member/inside sources we have for why and how Spilotro wound up in Vegas and what specific relationships and responsibilities he had with respect to the skim operations. I know that the G, already by 1978/79, was alleging that Tony was the “overseer” for Chicago’s skim operations, but LE is sometimes wrong about these things.

Now that we’re clear on what is not being claimed (no one is saying that Spilotro wasn’t a Chicago member or was banished or anything like that), here are the relevant questions, as I see them at least:

• Was Spilotro “sent” or specifically directed by the Chicago admin to relocate to Vegas in 1971 to “oversee” the skim operations? Did he instead go there of his own volition but then was later directed to “oversee” the skim? If yes to either, how do we know this?

• What specific responsibilities, if any, was Spilotro tasked with by the Chicago admin regarding the skim operations? How do we know this?

• Fosco claims that Spilotro wasn’t “boss of LV”. Presumably this would mean an operational “boss” with rights to racket incomes in a territory, as we know that organizationally Spilotro was a soldier. If Fosco’s claim is wrong, then what is a “boss of LV”, and were Spilotro’s gambling, juice, street tax, and burglary operations in Vegas directed or formally recognized and sanctioned by the Family’s admin, or was it basically just being done on Spilotro’s own initiative as a Chicago member operating in “Virgin territory” in terms of street rackets and taxes? How do we know?

[PPPP]

This seems like one of those alternative takes on a movie where they show edited clips in an altered sequence with a voice over to show you what the movie "is really about". It's arrogant and annoying. Like in this Karate Kid alternate version. Joe Fosco is the narrator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Gz_iTuRMM&t=38s

[NorthBuffalo]

Fosco also says in that quote Spilotro was not the 'agent of the Outfit' in Vegas. He's clearly implying he was in Vegas alone and not with the Outfit. To say Spilotro wasn't doing anything major in the 1970s well...Spilotro moved to Vegas in 1971. Through the entire decade he was fighting indictments and I think most on this board would agree he along with Mario killed Mad Sam - who was very close to the Outfit brass at that time.

I think Fosco is implying Spilotro's fame and infamy were not deserved - I just think he's blowing smoke. I enjoy Fosco and his stories, but I think Marco D'Amico was indeed made and I think Spilotro was indeed a major figure for the Outfit in Las Vegas.

[PaddyWhack]

I remember Cullota saying that Lombardo asked him when he was going to Vegas? and then telling him at a later date that he was going to Vegas, he was no longer asking. Spilotro being under Lombardo, Sounds like Lombardo sends Spilotro to Vegas , maybe with money to invest, obviously with permission from the Bosses, on the premise that he would also protect Rosenthal and their interests.

[Angelo Santino]

If Spilotro wasn't "sent" by Chicago that would speak more to his operational prowess. No one can take away how influential he was which means he earned/built that himself even if Chicago didnt designate him as "overseer" of LV. Speaks to how "soldiers" arent limited in what heights they can achieve with the right ambitions and connections.