Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[scagghiuni]

That's a good point. It's a very aggressive recruitment, if true. Even the low figure of 30 made members looks insane compared to the other small lcn families still active. That said, other families might be more cautious in inducting new members, while Buffalo in an effort to revitalize the family, might have pulled the trigger on a more rash approach.

it is just my theory, but i guess the bonanno asked todaro jr to make new members because they wanted more allies in canada to fight the rizzuto faction both in montreal and ontario, in fact violi although a buffalo member is strongly linked with bonanno family, he even attended a bonanno ceremony... violi was made underboss because he helped the bonanno's to fight the rizzuto faction

[Pogo The Clown]

The Rochester decina was not so big before it broke off that it would have created that drastic of a drop between the mid-1960s and 1972, though the family did have plenty of attrition during those years.

I should clarify that it was Rochester that had 40-45 members by 1972. Factor in that big loss and over 20 years of attrition and it is not unreasonable that Buffalo could have fallen to 45 members by 1989. As we've seen most of the non-NYC families saw a similiar large drop in membership during the same timeframe.

Why is it that you guys always have to get personal in these debates and attempt to bully peope away?

Nobody is getting personal. By the way that is the same tired line that was used back then. That if you disagree with someone you are trying to ruin a thread or run people off. It was BS back then and it was BS now. Everyone is free to post what they want and others are free to agree or disgree as they see fit.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

One induction every 4 years inducting a mere THREE members: NINE members (yup, one induction, every 4 years, three inductee's, unbelievable eh)

No, it's not believable. Or at least very hard to believe given the known facts. We go from 45 members in 1989 to 23 members in 2006, which shows they're weren't able to, (or perhaps not even trying) to even keep up with the guys dying. But then at some point, after years of diminishing membership and relative inactivity, they decide to "open the books" and start making new guys? And where are all these guys coming from? It's like you guys will ignore everything else, including common sense, to explain Violi's "30 guy" comment.

And I always like to point out the part where it says a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to be made...they were actively out there recruiting and making members. They could go from 15 members to 30 in the blink of an eye.

I've been doing some deeper research into the Buffalo family and found that they stopped doing the "traditional" making ceremony while Stefano Magaddino was still active as the boss and it hadn't been in practice for many years at that point according to the source, with the family instead doing a verbal oath only. I don't know if the family resumed doing the traditional ceremony later, but based on this info, the Buffalo-Toronto/Hamilton members inducted in the 1950s and 1960s, possibly earlier, had a more informal "verbal" ceremony not unlike the Morena ceremony (and many other Bonanno ceremonies spanning decades, DeCavalcante ceremonies, etc.). With this in mind, the idea of making members in the "blink of an eye" could be literally closer to the truth.

Also, another interesting note... there is a transcript where Stefano Magaddino tells his capodecina Joe Falcone that the Buffalo family had 22 members when he took over and that he built them up to 125 members at their peak. Most of these names have never been identified or confirmed and the FBI's Buffalo lists from the 1960s show only about half this number, if that, including NY, PA, and Canada (all places they had confirmed members), which shows that the FBI was missing a great deal of membership info.

The FBI's lists of living members post-1960s likely aren't comprehensive either and I don't think we can use the FBI's list of living members from any era as an absolute number of made members for any given time, then or now. That said, 30 current members vs. 125 at their peak is hardly a resurgence and if anything the 125 peak number should give credence to the idea that they could still have at least 30 members today, which was heavily implied by Violi's recorded statements.

Since the 1980s the FBI's intel has been very accurate, including on membership. There are going to be relatively few guys flying under the fed radar, especially in a small family like Buffalo in this day and age. You guys can keep coming up with ways to explain Violi's comments but what I'm really interested in is how you guys will explain away these 30+ guys doing nothing when we see little to nothing in the years ahead. Will it be the same excuses made for years for Detroit or will we see something original? I can't wait.

First the thirty number that Violi said could of been a rough estimate. The way I took his statement was there was about 30 other members, but I don't believe thirty members were considered for the position. If 30 members were considered, how many were not considered? That really makes the Buffalo Family at the 40 or 50 member level. The only new member to be identified in recent years is Violi himself.

And then you woke up.

honestly, it is not so unthinkable to believe the buffalo family has about 30 members considering the high italian population over there and the fact it's active in canada, and also that the bonanno's probably forced todaro jr to make new members because of the mafia war in montreal with the rizzuto faction

Mmm hmm. Why weren't they making more of these guys from the Italian population between 1989 and 2006 when the membership dropped from 45 to 23 members?

[B.]

How do you gauge accuracy on membership totals, especially with a group like Buffalo? The FBI's knowledge on different groups varies based on sources specific to those groups. Their knowledge, while impressive, isn't one size fits all and having comprehensive membership info on other groups doesn't always translate to another group, especially one like Buffalo that looks to have had a huge number of members unaccounted for by the FBI during a period when the FBI was accumulating an incredible amount of info on families across the US. You also won't see any argument from me about activity level -- when I say "member", I mean simply membership in the organization and nothing more.

I'm approaching this topic in good faith with an open mind based on historic and current information that has come to light -- please avoid the "you guys" talk, as it is condescending and my opinions aren't part of a hive mind on this topic or any other. That said, I've made my point about discrepancies between the membership total mentioned by Magaddino and the FBI's ability to identify or even estimate membership during that period and I don't see the point in continuing to hammer on the same points given the tone of the discussion.

[Lupara]

The Rochester decina was not so big before it broke off that it would have created that drastic of a drop between the mid-1960s and 1972, though the family did have plenty of attrition during those years.

I should clarify that it was Rochester that had 40-45 members by 1972. Factor in that big loss and over 20 years of attrition and it is not unreasonable that Buffalo could have fallen to 45 members by 1989. As we've seen most of the non-NYC families saw a similiar large drop in membership during the same timeframe.

Why is it that you guys always have to get personal in these debates and attempt to bully peope away?

Nobody is getting personal. By the way that is the same tired line that was used back then. That if you disagree with someone you are trying to ruin a thread or run people off. It was BS back then and it was BS now. Everyone is free to post what they want and others are free to agree or disgree as they see fit.


Pogo

You aren't simply disagreeing, you are calling people out by old forum handles of things they said ages ago and then use it against them in an attempt to discredit them. This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I've likely said some stupid shit too once when I was a newbie on these forums, but people learn and can change their mind and past mistakes are just that, a thing of the past.

Btw, you guys are calling this a script, but I'm not sure whether you realise that you are as much part of that same script as any.

[Wiseguy]

How do you gauge accuracy on membership totals, especially with a group like Buffalo? The FBI's knowledge on different groups varies based on sources specific to those groups. Their knowledge, while impressive, isn't one size fits all and having comprehensive membership info on other groups doesn't always translate to another group, especially one like Buffalo that looks to have had a huge number of members unaccounted for by the FBI during a period when the FBI was accumulating an incredible amount of info on families across the US. You also won't see any argument from me about activity level -- when I say "member", I mean simply membership in the organization and nothing more.

I'm approaching this topic in good faith with an open mind based on historic and current information that has come to light -- please avoid the "you guys" talk, as it is condescending and my opinions aren't part of a hive mind on this topic or any other. That said, I've made my point about discrepancies between the membership total mentioned by Magaddino and the FBI's ability to identify or even estimate membership during that period and I don't see the point in continuing to hammer on the same points given the tone of the discussion.

There's a problem if you have to refer to figures from the 1960s to make a point. Big difference from 1989 and 2006.

[Lupara]

You guys can keep coming up with ways to explain Violi's comments but what I'm really interested in is how you guys will explain away these 30+ guys doing nothing when we see little to nothing in the years ahead.

All in good time, you just have to be a little patient for now and not get ahead of things, because who knows, you may even be proven wrong. In that scenario, how unlikely that may sound to you, how will you explain away your current arguments?

[B.]

How do you gauge accuracy on membership totals, especially with a group like Buffalo? The FBI's knowledge on different groups varies based on sources specific to those groups. Their knowledge, while impressive, isn't one size fits all and having comprehensive membership info on other groups doesn't always translate to another group, especially one like Buffalo that looks to have had a huge number of members unaccounted for by the FBI during a period when the FBI was accumulating an incredible amount of info on families across the US. You also won't see any argument from me about activity level -- when I say "member", I mean simply membership in the organization and nothing more.

I'm approaching this topic in good faith with an open mind based on historic and current information that has come to light -- please avoid the "you guys" talk, as it is condescending and my opinions aren't part of a hive mind on this topic or any other. That said, I've made my point about discrepancies between the membership total mentioned by Magaddino and the FBI's ability to identify or even estimate membership during that period and I don't see the point in continuing to hammer on the same points given the tone of the discussion.

There's a problem if you have to refer to figures from the 1960s to make a point. Big difference from 1989 and 2006.

There is no problem -- the FBI's significantly incomplete membership information from the mid-late 1960s would have bearing on their membership information from 1989, which in turn could have bearing on 2006. Both in the sense that they did not have knowledge of the full membership at any given time and because some of the 125 members during their peak could have trickled down into later periods. It's doubtful at best that any of those 125 would be alive today, but it does impact assumptions about total membership through different eras.

Going back to Rochester briefly -- I've done a fair amount of research on the Rochester crew while they were under Magaddino and have seen nothing to indicate the crew was that large before breaking off. Not anywhere nearly enough members to have drastically reduced Buffalo's total numbers. I'm not familiar enough with them after breaking off, but if their membership got that high I would have to guess they brought the number up that high with their own inductions. I would also wonder what the source is on 40 to 45 members, though that's another topic.

[Pogo The Clown]

Going back to Rochester briefly -- I've done a fair amount of research on the Rochester crew while they were under Magaddino and have seen nothing to indicate the crew was that large before breaking off. Not anywhere nearly enough members to have drastically reduced Buffalo's total numbers. I'm not familiar enough with them after breaking off, but if their membership got that high I would have to guess they brought the number up that high with their own inductions. I would also wonder what the source is on 40 to 45 members, though that's another topic.

It was from a member informants testimony. Eeither Joe LaNovara or Angelo Monachino. I forgot which one but I have it somewhere in my files. He was talking about how many members the family had when he was inducted in 1972.


Pogo

[scagghiuni]

Mmm hmm. Why weren't they making more of these guys from the Italian population between 1989 and 2006 when the membership dropped from 45 to 23 members?

i explained it, in my opinion because of the mafia war started in 2009 in montreal, the murder of montagna etc. the bonanno's were fighting the rizzuto faction (also bonanno members anyway) and they needed manpower, so they asked todaro jr to make new members and rebuild the buffalo family, at least on the canadian side

[Wiseguy]

All in good time, you just have to be a little patient for now and not get ahead of things, because who knows, you may even be proven wrong.

I'm happy to give it all the time in the world. But something tells me I, as well as Pogo, will be proven right just like we were about Detroit.

In that scenario, how unlikely that may sound to you, how will you explain away your current arguments?

If I'm shown to be wrong, I'll admit it. But don't expect that to happen.

There is no problem -- the FBI's significantly incomplete membership information from the mid-late 1960s would have bearing on their membership information from 1989, which in turn could have bearing on 2006. Both in the sense that they did not have knowledge of the full membership at any given time and because some of the 125 members during their peak could have trickled down into later periods. It's doubtful at best that any of those 125 would be alive today, but it does impact assumptions about total membership through different eras.

You're really reaching.

i explained it, in my opinion because of the mafia war started in 2009 in montreal, the murder of montagna etc. the bonanno's were fighting the rizzuto faction (also bonanno members anyway) and they needed manpower, so they asked todaro jr to make new members and rebuild the buffalo family, at least on the canadian side

Tell you what, you stick with your theories, I'll stay with the known facts.

[B.]

Going back to Rochester briefly -- I've done a fair amount of research on the Rochester crew while they were under Magaddino and have seen nothing to indicate the crew was that large before breaking off. Not anywhere nearly enough members to have drastically reduced Buffalo's total numbers. I'm not familiar enough with them after breaking off, but if their membership got that high I would have to guess they brought the number up that high with their own inductions. I would also wonder what the source is on 40 to 45 members, though that's another topic.

It was from a member informants testimony. Eeither Joe LaNovara or Angelo Monachino. I forgot which one but I have it somewhere in my files. He was talking about how many members the family had when he was inducted in 1972.


Pogo

Thanks for the info. There was a lot going on in the period leading up to and after Jack Russolesi's death with Frank Valenti taking over as capodecina, Magaddino having a falling out with a number of Canadian members, then underboss/"street boss" Randaccio and top captain Natarelli going to prison and being demoted in 1968 being a major turning point. I'm surprised Rochester filled their ranks that quickly, though, and even had a place for that many members in Rochester.

[Pogo The Clown]

Interesting tidbit. He described one of the members who attended his ceremony as a professor from a local college. Be interesting to know who that was and how that guy ended being a made member of the mob during that time frame.


Pogo

[B.]

Yeah, though it's not surprising at all given most of the small families had members in non-criminal professions with little to no criminal involvement outside of mafia associaton. Utica's Silvestro Battaglia was a banker and his brother Augutus was a cattle rancher on a first name basis with a number of influential politicians, including JFK while he was a senator. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of unidentified members with Buffalo and that territory fit that general mold.

While I'm thinking of the membership totals, Valachi also estimated Buffalo at 100 to 125 which matches Magaddino's words. Valachi was knowledgeable on Buffalo as he stayed there during the C.War, gave the FBI information about two different occasions (1929 and 1931) where Magaddino brought 14 Buffalo members to NYC to help Maranzano with the war, and stayed in that area again in the 1950s when he was on the lam, along with ongoing drug business with Buffalo-Ontario members. One of his old robbery partners "Joe Busti" Mazzariello also moved to the Buffalo area. Possibly other interactions, too, but he was definitely familiar with the group so though his membership estimates aren't always accurate I would consider his Buffalo estimate good corroboration of Magaddino for peak Buffalo.

[newera_212]

its interesting that the run the Rochester family had almost parallelled the run of the city of rochester itself. for a while, basically the 50s until the mid 80s, the place was a boom town with a lot of money to be made up there. everyone working, everyone spending money, everyone gambling, everyone going out. the rochester family was there for all of that. their time ended due to internal fighting and indictments, but it timed up perfectly with the decline of the region. things are turning around up there now (buffalo too) for the better, but back in the day the trajectory of LCN activity there closely followed the rise and fall of the region's economy as a whole.

still a lot of italians up there till this day and on top of that there has strangly been an influx of calabrian immigrants to the area the last 15-20 years (not conflating this to relate to any sort of mob resurgance or anything of the sort)