Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Newyorkempire]

Great stuff Nickle. Logic and reason applied with a lot of patience. More than what I had patience to write.

So much evidence in the form of articles and key terms used by LE and busts. Shows what alliances are, what crews possibly exist, evidence of at least one new made member and administration positions filled. All the metrics that are used to determine viability of a family.

You have "Wise"guy dead in the water hoping he can somehow explain away the same articles and law enforcement docs he so desperately relies on for everything else he knows. Hes a lost little puppy whos more confused than he tries to accuse everyone else to be. Like I said, its like teaching an infant algebra.

[Wiseguy]

My post is about you denying that law enforcement and federal prosecutors had made publicly statement that indicate the presence of a Buffalo mafia. Isn’t that what you were saying? You seemed to indicate only Ahern had spoken publicly about the issue and no one else contradicted him. Am I understanding you right?

Your statement above was essentially repeated in your responses above. First, the years following his 1998 article showed Coppola was correct about the overall state of the Buffalo LCN. Second, the former law enforcement officials below have all said basically the same thing about the mob in Buffalo being finished.

• John McDonnell (FBI, retired/former LIUNA Local 210 trustee)
  Adam S. Cohen (Buffalo FBI SAC, retired)
  Andew Goralski (FBI, retired)
  Tony Bruce (Assistant US Attorney Western District NY, Organized Crime and National Security Division, retired)
  Salvatore Martoche (NY State Commission of Investigation, US Attorney Western District of NY, retired)
  Peter Ahearn (Buffalo FBI SAC, retired)

It's hard to argue against a half dozen guys who investigated the mob for years so your easiest route is simply dismiss them because they're retired. The implication being, their information is outdated and doesn't hold as much weight as current investigators.

But who are we talking about as far as current investigators? We don't have any statements from all the "federal agents" you so freely put in bold type. We simply have articles referring to them in a general sense related to the investigations. Now, the fact they're investigating things at all shouldn't be dismissed. But, thus far, these investigations (which is essentially one investigation) by the Western District Attorney's Office, haven't substantiated what Joseph Tripi has alleged.

You see the difference?

We have the the clear and undeniable decline in membership, over the past 30 years, resulting in a dozen remaining members. We have the relative lack of cases for decades, including the fact a made member of the Buffalo mob (other than Violi) hasn't been charged in 20 years. These things substantiate the statements from the officials I listed above.

Tripi's present case, which basically involves a half dozen drug dealers/criminals tied to a corrupt DEA agent, thus far has not substantiated allegations of an active Mafia family behind it all. We see "Mafia" or "Italian Organized Crime" being thrown around but, so far, there's no evidence that it's in the sense we have traditionally known it. Does Tripi's case involve some people who have loose, tenuous, or distant ties to remnants of a defunct Mafia family? Yes. Does Tripi's case involve some Italian criminals who are involved in crimes that Mafia families have long been involved in? Yes. But 1+1 doesn't = 5.

I realize you keep holding out on "what could be." Its' what your whole narrative lives on - waiting for some breakthrough evidence that will substantiate the current existence of an active Mafia family in Buffalo. But this is a ship that's never going to dock. You're going to still be waiting 5, 10 years from now. Meanwhile, you're getting Rooster/NYEmpire excited for no reason. He's going to be like a little kid on Christmas morning, expecting that shiny new toy, and all he gets is a lump of coal.

[Newyorkempire]

Like I said, dead in the water. A broken - winged pigeon looking for anyone to believe him now.

Relies on articles and LE docs and then gets mad when the most recent evidence negates his narrative, using his own metrics he loses, and then uses semantics to back track, detailing how Buffalo leadership is ceremonial and that it shunned the life but has not completely shunned the life, and there is inly dead and inactive members on both sides of the border.

Dumbfounded he says to himself, "how could this be?. What has happened to "Wise"guy from Utah's empire?" I was once leader of an almighty forum on the vast world wide web and have now been proven contradictory, hypocritical, and ironically, cherry picked myself, Aaaaargh, no! I refuse to concede, Buffalo means too much and I must forge ahead hoping and praying I am once again seen as King of The Black Hand Forum!"

[NickleCity]

But who are we talking about as far as current investigators? We don't have any statements from all the "federal agents" you so freely put in bold type. We simply have articles referring to them in a general sense related to the investigations.

And for each article's statements Mike McAndrew the head of the watchdog journalists for the Buffalo news has annotated the court documents backing each statement. Yes the name of the Federal LE investigators isn't always revealed, but it has in certain instances. I don't think we want all of the names to be revealed as it is an active investigation and court documents indicate Peter Gerace may have been involved in intimidating witnesses. This is the reason the Federal Judge has denied the release of the information in the search warrant. Yes, we can assume Gerace has intimidated his Ex Katrina Nigro, but do we really want to put others who may testify in danger by naming names?

We have the the clear and undeniable decline in membership, over the past 30 years, resulting in a dozen remaining members.
We have the relative lack of cases for decades, including the fact a made member of the Buffalo mob (other than Violi) hasn't been charged in 20 years. These things substantiate the statements from the officials I listed above.

Wiseguy, your argument is based on the classic absence of evidence fallacy. There has not been...there has been little... therefor there is none or little. Yes, this can be true but it does not prove the truth thereof.

'Tripi's present case, which basically involves a half dozen drug dealers/criminals tied to a corrupt DEA agent, thus far has not substantiated allegations of an active Mafia family behind it all. We see "Mafia" or "Italian Organized Crime" being thrown around but, so far, there's no evidence that it's in the sense we have traditionally known it. Does Tripi's case involve some people who have loose, tenuous, or distant ties to remnants of a defunct Mafia family? Yes. Does Tripi's case involve some Italian criminals who are involved in crimes that Mafia families have long been involved in? Yes. But 1+1 doesn't = 5.

We can say the same thing about Todaro Sr. There was never substantial evidence to make that case that he was ever the leader of the Buffalo LCN Family or involved in the mafia. Do you deny the over 10,000 pages of FBI documents on Todaro Sr.and say they have never substantiated those allegations?

I realize you keep holding out on "what could be." Its' what your whole narrative lives on - waiting for some breakthrough evidence that will substantiate the current existence of an active Mafia family in Buffalo. But this is a ship that's never going to dock. You're going to still be waiting 5, 10 years from now. Meanwhile, you're getting Rooster/NYEmpire excited for no reason. He's going to be like a little kid on Christmas morning, expecting that shiny new toy, and all he gets is a lump of coal.

Again that is what you said over 4 years ago with the Otremens arrests, but what has happened in Buffalo? More cases. Keep holding on to that and see how it goes for you. The lump of coal you hold to so tightly is never going to turn into a diamond like you suppose.

[NickleCity]

And for each article's statements Mike McAndrew the head of the watchdog journalists for the Buffalo news has annotated the court documents backing each statement. Yes the name of the Federal LE investigators isn't always revealed, but it has in certain instances. I don't think we want all of the names to be revealed as it is an active investigation and court documents indicate Peter Gerace may have been involved in intimidating witnesses. This is the reason the Federal Judge has denied the release of the information in the search warrant. Yes, we can assume Gerace has intimidated his Ex Katrina Nigro, but do we really want to put others who may testify in danger by naming names?

And because you will say I am making this up here is an article for your reference. And by the way I have seen some of court documents this article references. They are on Pacer.

Article
Judge keeps search warrant applications sealed in Buffalo organized crime case
Lou Michel Jun 29, 2021 Updated Aug 12, 2021

Quotes from the article since you will likely encounter a firewall:

Citing government concerns of possible witness intimidation, a judge refused Tuesday to unseal federal agents' requests for warrants to search the homes, computers and phones of a former DEA agent and the Cheektowaga strip club owner who is accused of bribing him.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Michael J. Roemer sided with Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph M. Tripi’s arguments that if the applications for the search warrants were released it would identify and put at risk more than a dozen government witnesses in the ongoing organized crime investigation and upcoming trial of the two defendants.

...
Unsealing the search warrants, Tripi argued, would not only open the door to potential witness intimidation, but create reluctance among witnesses to testify.

“We’ll struggle later to get these witnesses to take the stand,” he said.

...
LaTona and Harrington also told Roemer that they would be willing to enter into a protective order that would allow only them to read the search warrant documents. LaTona, however, also reserved the right to discuss the search warrant information with Gerace and others as he builds a case.

Tripi jumped on that.

“…he gets to read them and then gets to verbally transmit it to others. That is totally unacceptable,” Tripi said, adding that if the search warrant documents were unsealed, the case would be severely compromised.

The prosecutor, who is working with Assistant U.S. Attorney Brendan T. Cullinane, also argued that the indictment charging the defendants and other related court documents already provide the defense attorneys with information on the government’s case, making it unnecessary to unseal the search warrants.

Those documents also leave no doubt of what the government’s overall intentions are – to go after organized crime. The Bongiovanni search warrant allowed investigators to seize, for instance, “Notes and ledgers relating to association and illegal activities of members or associates of organized crime, including IOC (Italian Organized Crime) and the Buffalo LCN (La Cosa Nostra) Family.”

Link to the article: https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crim ... 4fcd0.html

Who is not on the record? How is the so nebulous and tenuous? Can it get any more clear? What don't you understand? Do your really want LE officer named? Do you want this investigation derailed to prove your point?

[NickleCity]

Wiseguy, here is the thing that bothers me... You cannot keep tabs on this like someone who is or has lived in the area. Personal experience makes things REAL. It enables people to know where to look for things, it helps them keep tabs on what is going on. Please quit acting like your detached knowledge is superior. I will gladly admit the weaknesses of my personal experience.

[Wiseguy]

Like I said, dead in the water. A broken - winged pigeon looking for anyone to believe him now.

Relies on articles and LE docs and then gets mad when the most recent evidence negates his narrative, using his own metrics he loses, and then uses semantics to back track, detailing how Buffalo leadership is ceremonial and that it shunned the life but has not completely shunned the life, and there is inly dead and inactive members on both sides of the border.

Dumbfounded he says to himself, "how could this be?. What has happened to "Wise"guy from Utah's empire?" I was once leader of an almighty forum on the vast world wide web and have now been proven contradictory, hypocritical, and ironically, cherry picked myself, Aaaaargh, no! I refuse to concede, Buffalo means too much and I must forge ahead hoping and praying I am once again seen as King of The Black Hand Forum!"

Recent evidence doesn't negate the last 20+ years. Recent evidence doesn't show what you claim (read: wish) it did. That's the whole point, genius. And you talk like I'm a lone voice saying this and the general consensus, whether on this board, in law enforcement, or in the general public, is that there is still an active mob family in Buffalo. What dream world are you getting that from?

Wiseguy, your argument is based on the classic absence of evidence fallacy. There has not been...there has been little... therefor there is none or little. Yes, this can be true but it does not prove the truth thereof.

Absence of evidence isn't fallacy when it comes to measuring mob activity, especially over the long run. This is a fact that has been well established. It's why we see a lot of evidence of activity in New York City, much less so in Philadelphia, and none in San Francisco. You're not the first person to claim the family in their city is the exception. Many have done it before you and their claims didn't pan out. Yours won't either. I think deep down you know that.

We can say the same thing about Todaro Sr. There was never substantial evidence to make that case that he was ever the leader of the Buffalo LCN Family or involved in the mafia. Do you deny the over 10,000 pages of FBI documents on Todaro Sr.and say they have never substantiated those allegations?

Nobody is denying Todaro Sr was the boss then, or that Todaro is the boss now. But, once again, you're conveniently avoiding the bigger context. Which is simply dishonest.

Todaro Sr. came to power in the mid-1980's when the family was several times the size it is now, firmly controlled LIUANA Local 210, and still had a considerable footprint in Western New York and across the border in Hamilton. True, he was a rarity in avoiding ever being charged as the boss but everyone knew he was and there was considerable evidence of the larger organization he oversaw and it's activity.

Fast-forward nearly 40 years, his son is the nominal boss of an organization that no longer exists. He may have the title as boss but, in real practical terms, they barely have enough members to staff even an average sized crew. And that would only be the case if all of them were actually active, which most of them are not.

With Todaro Sr., there was actually something to substantiate, even if they failed to do it. With Todaro Jr. there's nothing.

Again that is what you said over 4 years ago with the Otremens arrests, but what has happened in Buffalo? More cases. Keep holding on to that and see how it goes for you. The lump of coal you hold to so tightly is never going to turn into a diamond like you suppose.

Again, are you just going to simply say "more cases" and dishonestly avoid the context of those cases? Let's look at it, shall we?

• April 2016 - Peter Militello among 6 people charged with trafficking in fentanyl-laced heroin. Militello later identified as a CI for Bongiovanni.
  
  April 2017 - Peter Serio's home is raided, 50 kilos of marijuana are confiscated, and he is questioned about his dealings with Bongiovanni, Masecchia, and others.
  
  May 2019 - Anthony Gerace is indicted on charges of possession of marijuana with intent to distribute and firearms possession. Some articles have reported him to be a "mob associate and a nephew of Joseph Todaro Jr.
  
  August 2019 - the home of Erie County Sheriff's Deputy Louis Selva (best friend of Bongiovanni) was raided. He later resigns.
  
  November 2019, former DEA agent Joseph Bongiovanni is indicted in the Western District of New York on charges of conspiracy to defraud the U.S., distribution of controlled substances, public official accepting bribes, obstruction of justice, and false statements involving his protection of drug dealers (who he believed were part of Italian Organized Crime) from prosecution over the past decade. The Pharaoh strip club was also raided.
  
  August 2019, Michael Messechia is indicted on charges of marijuana trafficking and weapons possession. Messechia is a high school teacher but is labeled by prosecutors as an "associate and possible made member" of the Buffalo mob. However, the only known connection at this point is he's the son-in-law of a deceased member and was also tied to Bongiovanni.
  
  March 2021, Peter Gerace was arrested in Florida by the Department of Homeland Security on charges of sex trafficking, drug distribution, and bribery. Gerace is the brother of Anthony Gerace, nephew of Joseph Todaro Jr., and owner of Pharaoh's strip club.
  
  March 2021, Joseph Bella (who is labeled a "mob associate") is the owner of a medical staffing business is indicted on charges of wire fraud, loan fraud, money laundering, and cocaine and weapons possession.

So, with the possible exception of Bella, your "cases" that followed OTremens is essentially one case where several people involved were charged over a 5 year period between 2016-2021. One can certainly see the interconnection between them. Some of them are labeled "mob associates," though it begs the question of what mob they're associated with at this point. And a couple of them are relatives of Joseph Todaro Jr. The common denominator is Bongiovanni.

Those documents also leave no doubt of what the government’s overall intentions are – to go after organized crime. The Bongiovanni search warrant allowed investigators to seize, for instance, “Notes and ledgers relating to association and illegal activities of members or associates of organized crime, including IOC (Italian Organized Crime) and the Buffalo LCN (La Cosa Nostra) Family.”

The Attorney's Office has obviously chosen to frame this as a "Mafia" or "Italian Organized Crime" case, but the evidence they've brought so far hasn't shown us that in the traditional sense we've understood. There is no hierarchy overseeing this. It's why the fed have at times differentiated a criminal enterprise from organized crime. Those above seem to have their own individual, albeit interconnected to some degree, criminal enterprises. Some have been identified associates of a mob family, albeit one that no longer exists. And some have familial ties to current or deceased Buffalo LCN members.

Any honest, objective mob observer with a brain can see this for what it is. This is the classic makeup and activity we've seen in other cities after a family is gone but there are still remnants left.

[NickleCity]

Absence of evidence isn't fallacy when it comes to measuring mob activity, especially over the long run. This is a fact that has been well established. It's why we see a lot of evidence of activity in New York City, much less so in Philadelphia, and none in San Francisco. You're not the first person to claim the family in their city is the exception. Many have done it before you and their claims didn't pan out. Yours won't either. I think deep down you know that.

Your logic is flawed… although there is a slight chance you are right despite this flaw. To fix the flaw in your logic I only ask what a good logistician or philosopher would ask simply say lack of evidence suggests the Buffalo family could be very small and may not exist. This alone would make you much more bearable on these boards and lend credibility to your argument.

Nobody is denying Todaro Sr was the boss then, or that Todaro is the boss now. But, once again, you're conveniently avoiding the bigger context. Which is simply dishonest.

Todaro Sr. came to power in the mid-1980's when the family was several times the size it is now, firmly controlled LIUANA Local 210, and still had a considerable footprint in Western New York and across the border in Hamilton. True, he was a rarity in avoiding ever being charged as the boss but everyone knew he was and there was considerable evidence of the larger organization he oversaw and it's activity.

Fast-forward nearly 40 years, his son is the nominal boss of an organization that no longer exists. He may have the title as boss but, in real practical terms, they barely have enough members to staff even an average sized crew. And that would only be the case if all of them were actually active, which most of them are not.

With Todaro Sr., there was actually something to substantiate, even if they failed to do it. With Todaro Jr. there's nothing.

Not being dishonest. I am only pointing out the inconsistency in your logic. That is the point. You can’t have it both ways, yet you insist on on it. That is what is dishonest.

So, with the possible exception of Bella, your "cases" that followed OTremens is essentially one case where several people involved were charged over a 5 year period between 2016-2021. One can certainly see the interconnection between them. Some of them are labeled "mob associates," though it begs the question of what mob they're associated with at this point. And a couple of them are relatives of Joseph Todaro Jr. The common denominator is Bongiovanni.

Here is what we’ve got:

Mob Associates
Militello
Serio
Masecchia
Bella

Possible Made Man
Masecchia (If yes, when did it happen? Could there have been more who were made? Could there have been other making ceremonies?

Boss
Todaro (Jr)

Add what we learned about Canada in 2017
Underboss
Violi (Made in 2015? Promoted early 2017?)

Capo
Rocco Luppino

Soldier
Nat Luppino
Joe Violi given option to be made in Buffalo or Bonanno

So we have a making ceremony that we didn’t know about, yet you insist there could not be other making ceremonies and conclude that Mesecchia can’t be made a made man . Here are the logical inconsistencies: 1. We know there was a making ceremony we didn't know about... yet you assume and insist there can be no other making ceremonies that we don't know about. Why this insistence? To promote your narrative. This is dishonest. Logic says if there is one making ceremony we don't know, there could have been others. 2. I think you are using the lack of evidence fallacy again... We haven't had any Buffalo mob activity, so there couldn't have been a making ceremony. Am I wrong?

My issue is that you act like you have the inside scoop on this secret organization, but you don’t. I don’t, either! There are many things we don’t know. Why don’t you admit you may not be right?

I believe I’m right, but my God, I will admit my knowledge is limited and I could be wrong. All I ask is that you do the same. It is the logical, honest, and right thing to do.

The Attorney's Office has obviously chosen to frame this as a "Mafia" or "Italian Organized Crime" case,

So you should choose how to frame this? What credentials do you have? How do you know they don’t have any other evidence? Once again I don't understand your logic.

but the evidence they've brought so far hasn't shown us that in the traditional sense we've understood.

How do you know there is no other evidence? Are you privy to discovery in this case? Have you seen the sealed documents? Maybe you’re right or maybe what is sealed and more will come out in court….That is being honest. Once again the absence of evidence fallacy in your logic.

There is no hierarchy overseeing this.

And you know this how? Point me to the court documents in this case. Or are you using the absence of evidence fallacy as your reason again.

It's why the fed have at times differentiated a criminal enterprise from organized crime. Those above seem to have their own individual, albeit interconnected to some degree, criminal enterprises. Some have been identified associates of a mob family, albeit one that no longer exists. And some have familial ties to current or deceased Buffalo LCN members.

Here is a question for you: Could there be a reason the Feds framed this as a mafia case instead of a criminal enterprise case? Is there the possibility or even likelihood they have more information than our limited knowledge. I’d say that is a possibility, so I won’t question the way they are framing it until more information comes out. I ask that you do the same.

Any honest, objective mob observer with a brain can see this for what it is. This is the classic makeup and activity we've seen in other cities after a family is gone but there are still remnants left.

Really? No brain? Eye Eye Eye… Why do I try!

You think I am not being honest and objective, but I don’t think you are being honest and objective. This is the heart of our argument. Can we leave it here or do you need to get the last word to promote your narrative?

[Newyorkempire]

Lol. Hes so dead in the water. Hes groveling now so hopefully he looks right. This is great.

[Newyorkempire]

We believe you "Wise"guy. Your logic and reason is so evident. I am sorry you have been doubted. Utah rules!

[Newyorkempire]

According to "Wise"guy, everything is ceremonial but with no ceremonies. He is a a former LE agent, author, journalist and has inside information on what Todaro does on a day to day basis which according to him is "mostly" tending to his restaurants. The other portion of his time, "Wise"guy defines as leisurely appointing nominal underbosses to a non existent family in order to be seen as staying hip and trendy with the younger guys in the life.

[Pogo The Clown]

Looks like Rooster is off his meds again with the back to back posts of gibberish.


Pogo

[Newyorkempire]

Looks like Rooster is off his meds again with the back to back posts of gibberish.


Pogo

I was wondering earlier, where is "Wise"guys captain? and then boom, Pogo comes to his rescue. About time you show how much you care about him and to protect his flawed logic and reasoning, I was becoming concerned. Hope you are well. No meds yet but am considering after reading your soldier's babble.

"Now off with their heads!" (Logo yelling orders at "Wise"guy while vacationing in the Sierras so he can maintain his status on The Black Hand Forum)

[Wiseguy]

Your logic is flawed… although there is a slight chance you are right despite this flaw. To fix the flaw in your logic I only ask what a good logistician or philosopher would ask simply say lack of evidence suggests the Buffalo family could be very small and may not exist. This alone would make you much more bearable on these boards and lend credibility to your argument.

Instead of meandering into the theoretical (I realize your narrative rests on the theoretical), and appealing to "logisticians or philosophers," why don't you just look at the demonstrable facts? In city after city, family after family, indictments have reflected the relative mob activity there. You can especially see this over an extended period of time.

Before taking the prosecutor's allegations at face value (this is something I'm often accused of doing), ask yourself, have the general allegations about the "Mafia" or "Italian Organized Crime" in Buffalo actually been substantiated by the specific charges in the case? Do the allegations account for or explain the relative lack of activity for decades now? Do they account for or explain how such a Mafia family functions with so few members, most of which are old and inactive?

Here is what we’ve got:

Mob Associates
Militello
Serio
Masecchia
Bella

Possible Made Man
Masecchia (If yes, when did it happen? Could there have been more who were made? Could there have been other making ceremonies?

Boss
Todaro (Jr)

Add what we learned about Canada in 2017
Underboss
Violi (Made in 2015? Promoted early 2017?)

Capo
Rocco Luppino

Soldier
Nat Luppino
Joe Violi given option to be made in Buffalo or Bonanno

LOL. That's more than the prosecutor has done, I'll give you that. But does this look like a formally structured, cohesive LCN family to you or simply the scattered remnants of a family that once was?

So we have a making ceremony that we didn’t know about, yet you insist there could not be other making ceremonies and conclude that Mesecchia can’t be made a made man . Here are the logical inconsistencies: 1. We know there was a making ceremony we didn't know about... yet you assume and insist there can be no other making ceremonies that we don't know about. Why this insistence? To promote your narrative. This is dishonest. Logic says if there is one making ceremony we don't know, there could have been others. 2. I think you are using the lack of evidence fallacy again... We haven't had any Buffalo mob activity, so there couldn't have been a making ceremony. Am I wrong?

Theoretically - which you live and die on - a lot of things are possible. We could "What if?" until the end of time. Outside of known, demonstrable facts, I next go with what what is most probable as demonstrated by historical precedent, general trends, etc.

Using your example above, yes, Violi was made in a ceremony that nobody knew about at the time. And yes, theoretically, if the family could hold one ceremony, it could hold others. But, given historical precedent and general trends as shown in the Buffalo family itself, as well as LCN families in general, is it more probable that his ceremony was an anomaly? That he was a unique and special case, particularly given his pedigree? And most probably not indicative of other new members being made, at least in significant numbers?

And even if we, for the sake of argument, assume there have been more than one ceremony in recent years, how probable is it that has even come close to replacing all those who have died off? We've gone from 49 identified members in 1993 to 23 identified members in 2006 to about a dozen identified members today. That's called a trend. Even if there are some made guys flying under the radar, having been made in ceremonies that we don't know about, how probable is it that it's in sufficient numbers to really affect this trend? Why is it that, for all the allegations about the Mafia or Italian Organized Crime in Buffalo, the best prosecutors have come up with in terms of members not previously identified is a high school teacher-by-day/weed-dealer-by-night who "may be a made member?" Doesn't that tell you something?

How do you know there is no other evidence? Are you privy to discovery in this case? Have you seen the sealed documents? Maybe you’re right or maybe what is sealed and more will come out in court….That is being honest. Once again the absence of evidence fallacy in your logic.

I'm waiting for it but not holding my breath. Whatever their case has, I think we've seen it. They have plenty of evidence to put these guys away for their crimes. But as far as proving the existence of a RICO conspiracy we've seen so often with actually active Mafia families, nope. No, I don't have a crystal ball. But I understand general trends when it comes to the mob. It's like the sun. After seeing it come up day after day, you start to trust it.

And you know this how? Point me to the court documents in this case. Or are you using the absence of evidence fallacy as your reason again.

You mean besides the fact there aren't even enough active members to staff an average-sized crew? Because what we've seen of the evidence so far shows us anything but that. I realize you're waiting for some great reveal in court - the "What if?" - but it just comes across as wishful thinking that ignores the larger picture.

Here is a question for you: Could there be a reason the Feds framed this as a mafia case instead of a criminal enterprise case? Is there the possibility or even likelihood they have more information than our limited knowledge. I’d say that is a possibility, so I won’t question the way they are framing it until more information comes out. I ask that you do the same.

Well first, if they really wanted to frame it as a Mafia case, they would have charged all of them together in an actual RICO case. That they didn't (or couldn't), but charged them separately with many of the ties connecting them being circumstantial, suggests something.

I'm the first to say that law enforcement knows more than the general public, including mob watchers. I say this because they prove it repeatedly in their indictments. But, so far, the Western District Attorney's Office has not proven there actually is still a functioning Mafia family in Buffalo. They have alleged it - despite all the evidence and several former law enforcement statements to the contrary - but they have yet to really show these allegations have any basis in reality.

I know, I know...What if?

[NickleCity]

Really? No brain? Eye Eye Eye… Why do I try!

You think I am not being honest and objective, but I don’t think you are being honest and objective. This is the heart of our argument. Can we leave it here or do you need to get the last word to promote your narrative?

And folks we have our answer in his continued commenting above!