Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[B.]

The sergeant did not appear to have much expertise in the mafia / Cosa Nostra itself. I appreciated his POV and he didn't say anything too outrageous, but that was my impression.

His reference to Papalia being "boss" and Papalia's ally being "underboss" are along the lines of the old accounts of Mike Taccetta being "boss" and Marty Taccetta "consigliere" of the Lucchese NJ faction. People have a tendency to assign those defacto titles to decinas outside of the family's main territory, and we've seen people do this with Montreal as well. He did make it clear Papalia was part of Buffalo, same with the other figures like Pat Musitano and the Violi-Luppinos.

He did refer to affiliation this way on one of his slides:

Hamilton - Buffalo
Toronto - 'ndrangheta
Montreal - NYC

I have questions about that given Toronto did historically have Buffalo ties, too. No doubt it's a generalization, though, as Montreal has had 'ndrangheta and Sicilian mafia members, not just members affiliated with NYC.

Some of the issues with his presentation were also no doubt from his attempt to do an hour long webcam presentation of the entire Canadian mafia for a mob museum. Corners certainly had to be cut given the format and the standards weren't necessarily the highest. You could tell he kind of stammered or misspoke on some points and probably wasn't expecting the insane freaks of the Black Hand Forum like us to scrutinize his every word.

Hopefully his book adresses some of his statements in more detail so we can determine what comes from his own direct knowledge via Project Otremens. I hope he gives proper space to that investigation in the book even though it sounds like it's an assortment of stories.

[Snakes]

The sergeant did not appear to have much expertise in the mafia / Cosa Nostra itself. I appreciated his POV and he didn't say anything too outrageous, but that was my impression.

His reference to Papalia being "boss" and Papalia's ally being "underboss" are along the lines of the old accounts of Mike Taccetta being "boss" and Marty Taccetta "consigliere" of the Lucchese NJ faction. People have a tendency to assign those defacto titles to decinas outside of the family's main territory, and we've seen people do this with Montreal as well. He did make it clear Papalia was part of Buffalo, same with the other figures like Pat Musitano and the Violi-Luppinos.

He did refer to affiliation this way on one of his slides:

Hamilton - Buffalo
Toronto - 'ndrangheta
Montreal - NYC

I have questions about that given Toronto did historically have Buffalo ties, too. No doubt it's a generalization, though, as Montreal has had 'ndrangheta and Sicilian mafia members, not just members affiliated with NYC.

Some of the issues with his presentation were also no doubt from his attempt to do an hour long webcam presentation of the entire Canadian mafia for a mob museum. Corners certainly had to be cut given the format and the standards weren't necessarily the highest. You could tell he kind of stammered or misspoke on some points and probably wasn't expecting the insane freaks of the Black Hand Forum like us to scrutinize his every word.

Hopefully his book adresses some of his statements in more detail so we can determine what comes from his own direct knowledge via Project Otremens. I hope he gives proper space to that investigation in the book even though it sounds like it's an assortment of stories.

Yeah, I found it particularly amusing that people shit on his presentation when we still have several posters here who can't even competently use the quote function...

[Wiseguy]

My own thoughts...

First, why would Musitano be rewarded with membership into the Buffalo family for killing another Buffalo member (Papalia) unless they approved of it? Had Papalia fallen out of favor with Buffalo, and if so, what evidence is there of that?

Second, if the Luppino-Violis were already aligned with Buffalo at that point, Buffalo bringing a Musitano into the fold would seem to only create problems - unless Musitano's cooperation with Rizzuto wasn't widely known yet.

Third, the information about Pat Musitano disappearing for four days, his wife saying the "Eagle has landed," and Panepinto's comment, "Our friends from Hamilton," all seem a little circumstantial and not necessarily 100% conclusive. But that's me.

Fourth, investigators learn that Pat Musitano was made in Buffalo 1997 and that goes unknown for decades? He wasn't on the late 1997 Hamilton PD chart and likely was not on the 2006 FBI chart.

Fifth, wiretaps suggest Violi at least knew of, if wasn't involved in, the Musitano hits. Again, a Buffalo member is taking out another Buffalo member?

[Newyorkempire]

My own thoughts...

First, why would Musitano be rewarded with membership into the Buffalo family for killing another Buffalo member (Papalia) unless they approved of it? Had Papalia fallen out of favor with Buffalo, and if so, what evidence is there of that?

Second, if the Luppino-Violis were already aligned with Buffalo at that point, Buffalo bringing a Musitano into the fold would seem to only create problems - unless Musitano's cooperation with Rizzuto wasn't widely known yet.

Third, the information about Pat Musitano disappearing for four days, his wife saying the "Eagle has landed," and Panepinto's comment, "Our friends from Hamilton," all seem a little circumstantial and not necessarily 100% conclusive. But that's me.

Fourth, investigators learn that Pat Musitano was made in Buffalo 1997 and that goes unknown for decades? He wasn't on the late 1997 Hamilton PD chart and likely was not on the 2006 FBI chart.

Fifth, wiretaps suggest Violi at least knew of, if wasn't involved in, the Musitano hits. Again, a Buffalo member is taking out another Buffalo member?

Inter family murders have happened since the beginning of the Mafia. And we all know that membership charts are not always complete or comprehensive. These aren't some rare instances you're trying to make them out to be.

[Newyorkempire]

Also. The Musitanos have been featured on web charts with BiFulco and Nicoletti from the 90s and 2000s. It may not be the FBI chart but I believe it was Nickle who put a web up that details these guys working together.

[OcSleeper]

Third, the information about Pat Musitano disappearing for four days, his wife saying the "Eagle has landed," and Panepinto's comment, "Our friends from Hamilton," all seem a little circumstantial and not necessarily 100% conclusive. But that's me.

My thing is was Pat's father and uncle a member of Buffalo too? How did Panepinto do the introduction, when was he made and who was he with? Wasn't he Rizzuto's guy in Toronto? Was he made in Buffalo as well and that's why he did the introductions?

I remember seeing a chart Paul Manning posted that was of a October, 1997 meeting between different Canadian OC figures. It had Panepinto listed as a Scarcella Soldier. I've asked about Scarcella before, who was he with? I've seen him labeled as affiliated with Rizzuto. But I'm lost with him.

[Wiseguy]

Inter family murders have happened since the beginning of the Mafia. And we all know that membership charts are not always complete or comprehensive. These aren't some rare instances you're trying to make them out to be.

I never said they were rare. Internal family murders are more the rule than the exception, but that presupposes the Papalia hit was internal. I recall one investigator in 1997 after the Papalia hit saying that Buffalo at that point didn't have the organization or reach to have someone in Canada hit. And you would think some info would have come out about a problem the Buffalo family had with Papalia. But it's always been some combination of the Musitanos and Rizzuto.

The Musitanos have been featured on web charts with BiFulco and Nicoletti from the 90s and 2000s.

Am I supposed to take this seriously?

[Newyorkempire]

Inter family murders have happened since the beginning of the Mafia. And we all know that membership charts are not always complete or comprehensive. These aren't some rare instances you're trying to make them out to be.

I never said they were rare. Internal family murders are more the rule than the exception, but that presupposes the Papalia hit was internal. I recall one investigator in 1997 after the Papalia hit saying that Buffalo at that point didn't have the organization or reach to have someone in Canada hit. And you would think some info would have come out about a problem the Buffalo family had with Papalia. But it's always been some combination of the Musitanos and Rizzuto.

The Musitanos have been featured on web charts with BiFulco and Nicoletti from the 90s and 2000s.

Am I supposed to take this seriously?

The info already did come out. It was the wiretap transcript you've seen on this thread between Pat and Catz talking about Papalia needing to go.

Bear with me on the chart so you can take it serious once you see it.

[Newyorkempire]

Supplemental FBI Chart showing Musitano interconnections to Buffalo, NY guys. I will post the list from the FBI that shows Nicoletti on it as well

[Newyorkempire]

Cue backpedaling and vague insight on how it's not all connected and that you actually know what you're talking about when you "recall" an investigator saying "something" in 1997 about Canada. Give me a break

[B.]

I agree with Wiseguy that the wife's wiretapped phone call and LE overhearing "our friends from Hamilton" is not enough to confirm Pat Musitano's membership. The sergeant did state the belief that Pat Musitano was a Buffalo member, so maybe there is more info and he just wasn't able to properly elaborate given the nature of the presentation.

A key element in the Panepinto introduction is how he phrased it: did he say "friends of ours" or "amici nostri", or did he say it exactly as the sergeant said it, "our friends"? Did he introduce Musitano and Avignone individually? Did he then introduce Vito Rizzuto to them in a similar fashion? Those are important factors.

Had Vito Rizzuto ever personally met Musitano and/or Avignone before the 1997 dinner? If we know he had met them socially before this, then it's a strong sign Panepinto was introducing them as members.

Hard to gauge without more detail and it didn't sound like the sergeant was reading from a script, but just doing his best to explain his perception of Musitano's induction to make his point for the presentation.

--

As for Papalia, he had a long history of tension with the Buffalo leadership going back to the 1960s. I don't know if that continued under later leadership, but with certains guys we do see patterns of behavior. It's possible his murder also had nothing to do with his relationship to the Buffalo leadership, but with other Canadian figures and Buffalo simply authorized it.

Internal mafia violence is the norm, not the exception, so I see nothing strange about the idea that Buffalo members/associates killed other Buffalo members/associates. The Montreal conflict was at least partially an internal conflict as well. That's an important part of this, too, that mafia violence can have both internal and external motivations and participants.

--

Musitano being a Rizzuto ally is where the Canadian element gets muddy. There seems to be confusion in Canadian coverage that alliance = affiliation in Canada when we have no basis for it. Joe Scopo had allies with the Gambino family and was incredibly close to John Gotti, who backed Scopo and Orena's side of the Colombo war, but we have extensive inside info so we know Scopo was a Colombo member and did not belong to John Gotti. He was ultimately killed by rivals in the Colombo family and the Gambino family didn't retaliate because it wasn't their business beyond politics and friendship.

Musitano could have been a Buffalo member or associate who had an alliance of some kind with Vito Rizzuto but this doesn't necessarily have any bearing on Buffalo-Ontario internal businesses. Keep in mind at this time Vito Rizzuto was a soldier under Gerlando Sciascia and though we know Rizzuto was an immensely powerful figure beyond his official rank, we don't know the extent of would he would or could do in Montreal.

Not to bleed too far into the Montreal discussion, but an important detail we're missing is if Sciascia had an acting captain at the time. Previously Joe LoPresti had been Sciascia's acting captain in Montreal, but it had been years since LoPresti's murder.

Sal Vitale said when Vito Rizzuto refused to take the promotion to official capodecina, he said that left Vito Rizzuto basically as the "acting captain" of the former Sciascia-Montreal decina and the FBI listed him as such. Did Vitale say this because Vito Rizzuto had already replaced LoPresti as Sciascia's acting captain and his refusal to take a further promotion left him in his previous position? I'm starting to think that might be the case.

Also, why do we think Vito Rizzuto was interested in sowing discord in Ontario? He seems to have been extremely adept at cooperation with other groups, a talented underworld politician, so I'm not sure that he was pulling some underhanded Machiavellian strings. He had interests in the area, but I'm not sure I see what his motivation would be to create conflict. We can see that conflict erupted in Montreal when he was gone and he apparently predicted that.

[Pogo The Clown]

So the Musitsnos are either their own independent group that happens to be Italian, their own LCN family, an Ndrangheta group, Buffalo family members, Bonanno family members or Rizzuto family members (seperate from the Bonannos) or some combination of the above.


One thing is clear is that Canadian LE and journalists don't have a clue and are just guessing on a lot of this. Case in point this sergeant is contradicted by this picture from the case he worked on that refers to the Musitsnos as their own seperate family.


viewtopic.php?f=31&t=976&start=30

[B.]

I agree 100% that the lack of inside sources (at least those publicly available) and speculative coverage has made the Canadian discussion extremely muddy. That's why revelations like Project Otremens and the Violi recordings are so invaluable.

On that chart LE referred to the Violi-Luppinos as their own group as well, but now we know they are Buffalo members/associates (something we already knew about patrairch Giacomo Luppino previously). The same could be true for the Musitanos.

It's also not clear that Canadian LE is consistent in their terminology. They might not use "crime family" in the same sense we understand it, to mean an official organization recognized as such by other groups. Thankfully we have Domenico Violi clearly stating that he and his uncles belong to the Buffalo Cosa Nostra family.

[Newyorkempire]

So the Musitsnos are either their own independent group that happens to be Italian, their own LCN family, an Ndrangheta group, Buffalo family members, Bonanno family members or Rizzuto family members (seperate from the Bonannos) or some combination of the above.


One thing is clear is that Canadian LE and journalists don't have a clue and are just guessing on a lot of this. Case in point this sergeant is contradicted by this picture from the case he worked on that refers to the Musitsnos as their own seperate family.


viewtopic.php?f=31&t=976&start=30

So basically they are/were everything and nothing at the same time.

[Wiseguy]

Supplemental FBI Chart showing Musitano interconnections to Buffalo, NY guys. I will post the list from the FBI that shows Nicoletti on it as well

Now that you post that, I've seen that chart before. But it doesn't show what we're talking about and I think you know that.

For the record, I don't think its impossible that Musitano was made in Buffalo. In some ways it would make sense. But the questions I posted still stand.

You'll have to bear with me while I dig up that "vague" quote about Buffalo not having the organization, reach, etc. to hit someone in Canada at the time.