Yes, the reason I say Detroit is arguably still one of the remaining families is because it has been on some lists. But not others. There's conflicting viewpoints. What decides it for me is the cases (or lack thereof) over an extended period of time. Also the fact that we haven't really seen any credible info on a hierarchy in years (I don't consider Scott's charts to be that). What's the two fundamentals of RICO? Continuing criminal activity (as shown in indictments) in behalf of an enterprise (with a hierarchy). I don't think Detroit meets that standard. So if others want to include Detroit because it is on some lists, because of what Scott says, or whatever, fine. I don't.Confederate wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:16 amI don't believe Wiseguy ever said the Detroit Family was defunct to my recollection. He said The Feds stated that Detroit was one of the 10 remaining Families. The issue with Scott was the NUMBER of made men in the Detroit Family which was a lot different than the estimate by the Feds. The Feds stated that Buffalo was no longer a functioning LCN Family several years ago. Two completely seperate issues.Lupara wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:57 amAgreed. Almost always hard to question Wiseguy's and Pogo's solid arguments/facts but try not to squash any potentially interesting discussion. Also, I can hardly remember this on the RD if remembering at all, but so far the impression I got here is that of a decent poster. Try not to scare everyone with a different viewpoint of this board yeah? He sure as hell is not a troll that much I do know.SonnyBlackstein wrote:@Pogo and Wisgeuy.
I think your attacks on johnny Scootch are unwarranted.
The guy is citing legitimate sources for his beliefs. IE a former LE officer who was undercover in the area and a renowned journalist, for his opinions.
He's entitled to legitimately believe there's an operational structure in buffalo involved, basis these sources. The fact we all disagree doesn't give you two the position to ridicule his beliefs as if they were outlandish or unjustified. He's got an opinion, and he can substantiate it.
Isnt that the basis of a good discussion on a forum?
I find it a little ironic that Wiseguy, after all the bashing of Scott and others who defended Detroit's viability, is now suggesting the family may still be active even though the status of this family is (and always was) comparable to Buffalo. The latest indictment of 'members of the Todaro crime family' is a much stronger evidence of activity than we got from Detroit in recent years. When was the last time 'members of the Detroit crime family' were indicted? Over a decade ago or more?
For Buffalo, we also have a relative lack of cases over an extended period of time. As well as no discernible hierarchy. Both Detroit and Buffalo are rather small in numbers at this point. And you don't see Buffalo on any FBI lists going back years. In fact, I think it's telling that what I would consider to be the last really significant cases for both families occurred in 1996 - the GamTax bust for Detroit and LIUNA 210 for Buffalo.
I've mentioned before a 1992 article that had a list of families the feds were close to "crossing off" -
Cleveland
Denver
Los Angeles
New Orleans
Pittston, Pa.
Rochester, N.Y.
San Francisco
San Jose
St. Louis
Tampa
The same article also listed families that were still considered "powerful" -
New York City (5)
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Chicago
Boston
Isn't it interesting (and consistent) how these 9 same families over 25 years ago are the ones still left today.
Of course, you'll notice these families missing from the article -
Buffalo
Pittsburgh
Detroit
Milwaukee
Kansas City
With the exception of Milwaukee, which should have been on the crossed off list at that point, those other families were still a factor in the 1990s. Not as strong as the ones considered "powerful" but not ready to be crossed off either. And we saw that born out in cases later in that decade. But it's now 2018. If those families were in a grey area, so to speak, over 25 years ago, where would they logically be today?
As far as discussion, contrary to what some think, I don't believe me, or Pogo, have any desire to stifle it. I think it's more accurate to say we try to keep things within the right context or framework. You want to discuss what's going on in the Buffalo/Canada region? Knock yourself out. Just don't get carried away with jumping to quick conclusions that conflict what we've seen for the last 20 years now.
