Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[CabriniGreen]

Does she even know that the Buffalo family has had a a connection to the Ndrangheta going back decades, it is hardly something new.

To be fair, I made this argument when the topic hit the boards, it was mostly rejected by the respected posters. They seemed to see Ndrangheta as inferior to LCN, or overrated. Which was and still is baffling to me...

[Angelo Santino]

"Sorry the question is way too broad and would require a lot more background. LCN is a social construction these days - it has changed from what it used to be - the mafia families such as the Todaro were once allied to what used to be LCN and today are engrained in the new hybrid order between LCN ‘ndrangheta and whoever else - things are way more fluid these days."

"Sorry the question is way too broad and would require a lot more background."
Not really. It's a simple questions: does she believe there's a Buffalo LCN entity around or not.

"LCN is a social construction these days ."
Social constructionism is a theory of knowledge in sociology and communication theory that examines the development of jointly constructed understandings of the world that form the basis for shared assumptions about reality.
The Mob has always been a social construct, that's the glue and without it, you can have as many ranks and capos as you want you won't have an lasting organization. There's a reason why Families aren't created equally or why other groups fail to replicate it.

"it has changed from what it used to be"
Not in terms of social construction. If their ranks withered and declined down to say three members, you won't have an organization per se but still a very small network, like we seen in Cleveland and the West Coast.

"the mafia families such as the Todaro were once allied to what used to be LCN"
That's like saying Joey Merlino was once allied with the LCN and now is part of the East Coast LCN Enterprise. It makes no sense.

"and today are engrained in the new hybrid order between LCN ‘ndrangheta and whoever else"
The LCN WAS the new hybrid. It has a Sicilian origin but fused in other Italo-gangsters in America. The Violi's are one example of this.

"things are way more fluid these days."
I don't know if this is a Canadian thing but it seems similar to The 6th Family authors. When asked about the Rizzuto structure all they could muster was double talk about overlapping influence. These type of answers develop as a result of lack of inside info. There's a structure but it's not easily observable.

[CabriniGreen]

"Sorry the question is way too broad and would require a lot more background. LCN is a social construction these days - it has changed from what it used to be - the mafia families such as the Todaro were once allied to what used to be LCN and today are engrained in the new hybrid order between LCN ‘ndrangheta and whoever else - things are way more fluid these days."

"Sorry the question is way too broad and would require a lot more background."
Not really. It's a simple questions: does she believe there's a Buffalo LCN entity around or not.

"LCN is a social construction these days ."
Social constructionism is a theory of knowledge in sociology and communication theory that examines the development of jointly constructed understandings of the world that form the basis for shared assumptions about reality.
The Mob has always been a social construct, that's the glue and without it, you can have as many ranks and capos as you want you won't have an lasting organization. There's a reason why Families aren't created equally or why other groups fail to replicate it.

"it has changed from what it used to be"
Not in terms of social construction. If their ranks withered and declined down to say three members, you won't have an organization per se but still a very small network, like we seen in Cleveland and the West Coast.

"the mafia families such as the Todaro were once allied to what used to be LCN"
That's like saying Joey Merlino was once allied with the LCN and now is part of the East Coast LCN Enterprise. It makes no sense.

"and today are engrained in the new hybrid order between LCN ‘ndrangheta and whoever else"
The LCN WAS the new hybrid. It has a Sicilian origin but fused in other Italo-gangsters in America. The Violi's are one example of this.

"things are way more fluid these days."
I don't know if this is a Canadian thing but it seems similar to The 6th Family authors. When asked about the Rizzuto structure all they could muster was double talk about overlapping influence. These type of answers develop as a result of lack of inside info. There's a structure but it's not easily observable.

Some of that she said seems to be more of an, English isn't her first language thing... I watched a couple lectures from her and she's wasn't the most eloquent, but clearly English wasn't her strong suit....

As far as the " Canadian" take on things... I would say it's more EUROPEAN than anything...


“Camorra groups no longer need to maintain widespread military-style control—or at least not always—because their principal business activities now take place outside Naples.
Investigations conducted by the Naples anti-Mafia prosecutor reveal that the Camorra’s flexible, federalist structure has completely transformed the fabric of the families. instead of diplomatic alliances and stable pacts, clans now operate more like business committees. The Camorra’s flexibility reflects its need to move capital, set up and liquidate companies, circulate money, and invest quickly in real estate without geographical restrictions or heavy dependence on political mediation. The clans no longer need to organize in large bodies.....

To me... That s EXACTLY how the Calabrians are organized, and frankly I see the Caruanas Cuntreras and Rizzutos, really all those Canadian organizations being organized more like this than anything....

You see a lot of this in the Gambino indictment too....their relations with the Ursinos.... We still don't know who Semplice met with , the crime family from Italy. Buffalo members at a Bonnano making ceremony, what did we just see? Gambino the Inzerillos and Caputo together..... I think this speaks to the mafias are more fluid statement.

[CabriniGreen]

All these individually, don't mean much. But you start to add em all together, it paints an interesting picture...

[Angelo Santino]

Some of that she said seems to be more of an, English isn't her first language thing... I watched a couple lectures from her and she's wasn't the most eloquent, but clearly English wasn't her strong suit....

As far as the " Canadian" take on things... I would say it's more EUROPEAN than anything...


“Camorra groups no longer need to maintain widespread military-style control—or at least not always—because their principal business activities now take place outside Naples.
Investigations conducted by the Naples anti-Mafia prosecutor reveal that the Camorra’s flexible, federalist structure has completely transformed the fabric of the families. instead of diplomatic alliances and stable pacts, clans now operate more like business committees. The Camorra’s flexibility reflects its need to move capital, set up and liquidate companies, circulate money, and invest quickly in real estate without geographical restrictions or heavy dependence on political mediation. The clans no longer need to organize in large bodies.....

To me... That s EXACTLY how the Calabrians are organized, and frankly I see the Caruanas Cuntreras and Rizzutos, really all those Canadian organizations being organized more like this than anything....

You see a lot of this in the Gambino indictment too....their relations with the Ursinos.... We still don't know who Semplice met with , the crime family from Italy. Buffalo members at a Bonnano making ceremony, what did we just see? Gambino the Inzerillos and Caputo together..... I think this speaks to the mafias are more fluid statement.

She's Italo-based? Ok, then that changes my thoughts in several areas. I should have looked into her background more. 'Social construction' takes on another meaning, especially as it relates to OC in Calabria which have become a class onto themselves to the point of local businesses (restaurants, car dealerships etc) catering directly to that element. When I was growing up there was a restaurant called the Red Lion which was open to everyone but it really wasn't. It catered directly to the local politicians and attorneys in a very public way. The local conduct in Calabria is similar to that with the criminal element.

The Camorra she speaks of is the modern camorra and the way it engages criminally is similar but the approach is very different. The Calabrians are a cult and the Neapolitans are dapper gangsters and the Sicilians are in between. The Camorra today are essentially cartels that brush up against each other, sometimes in tandem, other times in war. They are not joined as a criminal society: they don't have matching ranks nor do they run names by each other. You and I could move to Naples and start a gang and if it becomes big enough we're then Camorra bosses. It's that simple. Now, I don't pretend to know everything so if there's remnants of the NCO or La Familia which stand in contrast to what I just stated it doesn't deviate from the fact that what accounts for camorra gangs in Naples today don't have ceremonies, aren't Godfather-esque (in fact they're more Pulp Fiction). They're as diverse structurally and operationally as the Mexican cartels or LA street gangs.

In terms of these Canadian drug operatives and how that fits into an LCN structure, I reckon we're looking at the structure the wrong way. When we think of crews we envision the blue-collar grimy NY crews depicted in Donnie Brasco, Goodfellas and Sopranos to an extent. Those crews represent localized operations in a specific area. There's another (smaller) side to it, especially with 3rd/4th/5th generation members who move around but take their affiliation with them. They remain part of their original affiliation but the arrangement is not one of coming in every week with an envelope to the capo, they are on a longer leash. And given the national and international scope of OC, you don't need as many members and in fact they never did. Outside of Palermo and NYC, mafia memberships were much smaller.

[Lupara]

Does she even know that the Buffalo family has had a a connection to the Ndrangheta going back decades, it is hardly something new.

To be fair, I made this argument when the topic hit the boards, it was mostly rejected by the respected posters. They seemed to see Ndrangheta as inferior to LCN, or overrated. Which was and still is baffling to me...

Stop being such a drama queen. Nobody rejected the fact that Buffalo and the 'Ndrangheta clans go a long way. And back in the Magaddino years when the first clans settled in Ontario they definitely were subservient to Buffalo as Ontario belonged to Magaddino. When the family's power and influence started to wane in the years following his death, this may have changed, especially with the newer clans that came to Canada in the 70s. But historically, all the clans answered to Buffalo. This was even repeated recently by a a former LE agent, that they 'were all supposed to be under Buffalo'. However I think this source was likely referring to the Hamilton groups. Clans such as the Commissos and Figliomenis settled in Toronto after the Magaddino years and so perhaps did not have the same relationship/obligation to Buffalo. There's little evidence that they answer to LCN today while there is strong evidence the older Calabrian clans in Hamilton still do.

[antimafia]

What clues were left in car hit in front of Hamilton mobster Pat Musitano’s house?

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9520 ... no-s-house

[CabriniGreen]

Not that Buffalo had ties to ndrangheta. That's a fact that can be Googled...., the possibility that the Violis were ndrangheta was rejected. Which was fine....I just didnt agree with the reasoning at the time.....

What I'm saying is the consensus on the board was that there was NO Buffalo, and they COULDNT be ndrangheta, and they MUST be Bonnanos... mostly because the family decayed into entropy. Now we got the benefit of hindsight... But I was looking at it, somewhat similarly to Sergi... I've said many times I thought that ceremony was the formalization of a business tie, not neccesarily an organizational one. I thought the pressence of Zummo to be very telling.... especially after B. posted all that about how he actually comes from Pizza connection gangsters... I'm like hmmm, birds of a feather.....
(How would you describe it?)

Again, like maybe the Gambinos and Ursinos... and increasingly, to my eyes...the Gambinos and Inzerillos( seems to me a formalized business relationship, are the Inzerillos under NY? it doesnt seem so...) , we are certain there is no double affiliation....

And I'm not being a Queen anything... I COME from gangsters, all day... it's why I'm interested in this stuff... I check outta the stupid arguments...

On the Maggadino thing...

Of course... with Commisos and Figliomenis..... their success isnt dependent on Maggadino family association. Hell, I would argue the Violis success in the criminal world didnt either....If you listen to Joe, he was close to the Bikers..., Most of those clans came up on kidnapping, Marijuana plantations, the Colombo package, and cocaine imports.... the clans that stayed in Calabria dominate the local structures, like the Figliomenis.. similar to Gambinos, they are actually like Mayors and shit in Calabria.... And all the most powerful clans PHYSICALLY present in South America, that's where the narcotics connects come from....

That illicit liquidity turned into hotels and restaurants, and betting rings and construction and everything else....

[CabriniGreen]

Some of that she said seems to be more of an, English isn't her first language thing... I watched a couple lectures from her and she's wasn't the most eloquent, but clearly English wasn't her strong suit....

As far as the " Canadian" take on things... I would say it's more EUROPEAN than anything...


“Camorra groups no longer need to maintain widespread military-style control—or at least not always—because their principal business activities now take place outside Naples.
Investigations conducted by the Naples anti-Mafia prosecutor reveal that the Camorra’s flexible, federalist structure has completely transformed the fabric of the families. instead of diplomatic alliances and stable pacts, clans now operate more like business committees. The Camorra’s flexibility reflects its need to move capital, set up and liquidate companies, circulate money, and invest quickly in real estate without geographical restrictions or heavy dependence on political mediation. The clans no longer need to organize in large bodies.....

To me... That s EXACTLY how the Calabrians are organized, and frankly I see the Caruanas Cuntreras and Rizzutos, really all those Canadian organizations being organized more like this than anything....

You see a lot of this in the Gambino indictment too....their relations with the Ursinos.... We still don't know who Semplice met with , the crime family from Italy. Buffalo members at a Bonnano making ceremony, what did we just see? Gambino the Inzerillos and Caputo together..... I think this speaks to the mafias are more fluid statement.

She's Italo-based? Ok, then that changes my thoughts in several areas. I should have looked into her background more. 'Social construction' takes on another meaning, especially as it relates to OC in Calabria which have become a class onto themselves to the point of local businesses (restaurants, car dealerships etc) catering directly to that element. When I was growing up there was a restaurant called the Red Lion which was open to everyone but it really wasn't. It catered directly to the local politicians and attorneys in a very public way. The local conduct in Calabria is similar to that with the criminal element.

The Camorra she speaks of is the modern camorra and the way it engages criminally is similar but the approach is very different. The Calabrians are a cult and the Neapolitans are dapper gangsters and the Sicilians are in between. The Camorra today are essentially cartels that brush up against each other, sometimes in tandem, other times in war. They are not joined as a criminal society: they don't have matching ranks nor do they run names by each other. You and I could move to Naples and start a gang and if it becomes big enough we're then Camorra bosses. It's that simple. Now, I don't pretend to know everything so if there's remnants of the NCO or La Familia which stand in contrast to what I just stated it doesn't deviate from the fact that what accounts for camorra gangs in Naples today don't have ceremonies, aren't Godfather-esque (in fact they're more Pulp Fiction). They're as diverse structurally and operationally as the Mexican cartels or LA street gangs.

In terms of these Canadian drug operatives and how that fits into an LCN structure, I reckon we're looking at the structure the wrong way. When we think of crews we envision the blue-collar grimy NY crews depicted in Donnie Brasco, Goodfellas and Sopranos to an extent. Those crews represent localized operations in a specific area. There's another (smaller) side to it, especially with 3rd/4th/5th generation members who move around but take their affiliation with them. They remain part of their original affiliation but the arrangement is not one of coming in every week with an envelope to the capo, they are on a longer leash. And given the national and international scope of OC, you don't need as many members and in fact they never did. Outside of Palermo and NYC, mafia memberships were much smaller.

I literally think she teaches at like the university of Calabria, or something....

[Lupara]

What I'm saying is the consensus on the board was that there was NO Buffalo, and they COULDNT be ndrangheta, and they MUST be Bonnanos... mostly because the family decayed into entropy.

From what I recall is that there was no consensus at all, just speculation that eventually turned into a borderline beef when the fact checkers started to chime in and cut their teeth into it like a pitbull.

Now we got the benefit of hindsight... But I was looking at it, somewhat similarly to Sergi... I've said many times I thought that ceremony was the formalization of a business tie, not neccesarily an organizational one. I thought the pressence of Zummo to be very telling.... especially after B. posted all that about how he actually comes from Pizza connection gangsters... I'm like hmmm, birds of a feather.....
(How would you describe it?)

I'm open to your interpretation and theories and so don't necessarily disagree with you. Posters such as you are of value because you come up with interesting alternative thinking (even though it's often a brain challenge going through all the rambling). But it definitely adds to the discussion.

As for the Violis, it's as close a fact as possible that they are formal LCN members. Even Wiseguy I think would agree with this, and that is always a big deal. [emoji3]

[Wiseguy]

Do you find her response to be that out of alignment with what you believe, that Buffalo isn't viable? A crime family, that's not LCN would be somewhat of an accurate description, IF you don't believe Buffalo is a viable organization.

I asked this before, why exactly should I consider the Musitanos a crime family, but not the Violis/Luppinos? When they seem just as active and connected, maybe BETTER connected? Why should we consider the Ursinos a crime family then?
I've made the point before, until recently I've NEVER seen ANY of the Calabrian clans broken down really. We just got the Figliomenis, we know about the Commisos, Collucios, I have NO idea what clan Tavernese or DiMaria are bosses of,or even what their operations are, or WHERE they are.Theres a lot we still don't know.

While there may be a formal affiliation with the Buffalo family, I think recent events - the 2017 drug bust, as well as the Ivarone, Musitano, and Luppino murders - have much more to do with underworld politics and conflict in Canada than anything on the American side of the border. That's the reason for them suddenly coming back on the radar after all this time. And it's one reason why they can't necessarily be taken as signs of ongoing viability of a crime family the FBI has already written off.

Does she even know that the Buffalo family has had a a connection to the Ndrangheta going back decades, it is hardly something new.

To be fair, I made this argument when the topic hit the boards, it was mostly rejected by the respected posters. They seemed to see Ndrangheta as inferior to LCN, or overrated. Which was and still is baffling to me...

Considering this is her area of study, I think Sergi is probably aware that the Buffalo LCN has a history of interacting with the Ndrangheta.

As for the Ndrangheta being considered inferior in Canada, for decades that was the case. You can read old RCMP reports over the years that talk about the greater influence the Sicilians and Americans had. However, fast-forward after Project Colisee that was the beginning of the end of Rizzuto dominance, and the ongoing war, the Ndrangheta has become more prominent. I suppose its a change that mirrors changes on an international scale.

[SonnyBlackstein]

(even though it's often a brain challenge going through all the rambling).

[scagghiuni]

As for the Ndrangheta being considered inferior in Canada, for decades that was the case. You can read old RCMP reports over the years that talk about the greater influence the Sicilians and Americans had. However, fast-forward after Project Colisee that was the beginning of the end of Rizzuto dominance, and the ongoing war, the Ndrangheta has become more prominent. I suppose its a change that mirrors changes on an international scale.

sicilian mafia and lcn are still more powerful in most of canada anyway if you look indictements, drug trafficking, murders (all related to montreal where ndrangheta is not present) in the latest years and also the fact that the violis although calabrians were made members of lcn and not ndrangheta confirmed it

[dixiemafia]

Do you think he leaves the country or will he stay and let them eventually wipe him off the planet? Is he an ego maniac from your understanding?

I think he stays, one story I read said he visited the 76 year old at the hospital so he isn't gone out of town. I think this ends like Montagna, he gets popped in town somewhere because he ain't getting out of town. What a weird story man...

[AntComello]

Musitano def has a pair of balls I’ll tell ya that much. He needs to make a statement and send some hitters at luppino.