Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

So you believe Dominic Violi but assert that since he's Underboss of what seems to be a dormant/nonexistent/apparently inactive group it's irrelevant or has marginal significance?

Exactly.

This reminds me of John Tronolone who became 'boss' over what was left of Cleveland, and since by the early 90's there was no structure and hardly any active members he became a sort of area representative despite living in Florida for decades. I say area representative because he apparently was pushed by NY to assume the position, which due to Cleveland's status at the time was largely a formality. Or we can look at D'Elia and his 'control' over the Scranton remnants, no Family but was picked up talking with Stanfa and seemed to be in the NYC loop.

I do think it's something like that.

But WG, we as viewers don't get to decide what's what. It's similar to 2009 when Joe Ligambi was in the middle of being revered as Philly's saving grace only to find out his acting underboss is Marty Angelina which went against the narrative. George Anastasia in disbelief said "Many people think (Staino) is the actual underboss" when in all actuality Staino was guesswork based off of what we thought/assumed about Ligambi's acumen. We can try and upsize Stainos' role and argue that Angelina's too much of a fuckup to be taken serious but that's our take.

I know you disagree on what constitutes an active family, but in Mafia circles if there was a Helena, Montana crime family with ten members with no rackets and no charges for the last 20 years that's still recognized by NYC and abroad, it is what it is. We can argue their diminished capability all we want, they're still a presence even if they don't fit the NY model, even if it's merely political as was the case with D'Elia or Tronolone. If the Gambinos and Genoveses on some alternative plane decided to open up a world premier casino in Cleveland they'd have the muscle to do so with or without Cleveland's approval. But they wouldn't. They'd go to Tronolone and ask permission from the area boss despite his living in Miami or Ft Lauderdale since the 60's and having no formal structure in CL.

[SonnyBlackstein]

As for 30+ members, do the math. 23 members in 2006. At least 11 members have died since then, which would leave 12 members. So, over the past 13 years they've made like 20 members? Don't think so.

Let’s see if I can find an answer for that ‘conundrum’. Oh yeah, here’s a couple you’ve already ignored:

@ Lupara:
Let’s also look at context.

14 members inducted appears a large number, until its put into context, that this would be from 2006. That’s 13 years. Meaning an inductee per year, odd. Or one induction every 4 years with 4/5 inductees.

The math on these equations doesn’t appear incredibly unrealistic.

We also need to take into account that it is unlikely the FBI would be aware of all members. It’s not at all unlikely they were unaware of 4-5 members.

And taking into account Canada, which could easily constitute a reasonable portion, 5-10 possible members.

A mix of all three possibilities, in any weight, and you quite easily arrive at a ballpark 30 number.

I don’t see why Violi’s statement considering the above appears extraordinarily unbelievable.

Even for a minute.

Even granting you the most favorable, minimum numbers from the above, your position still appears fragile:
One induction every 4 years inducting a mere THREE members: NINE members (yup, one induction, every 4 years, three inductee's, unbelievable eh)
in addition to:
FBI unaware of perhaps a mere FOUR members:
in addition to:
Canada having a MERE FIVE members.

That's 18 members, at a minimum, with considerable potential that these numbers may be greater, and we STILL get 18 members plus the 12 cited in a 2012 report....

Wal-ah, 30 members.

The obvious conclusion is that a reasonable mix of the above three components and you can find 30 members in any one of a multiple of reasonable situations.

Now I'm not saying this is the scenario, but I've presented you with a perfectly reasonable one and one in your favor, and your only response is to avoid the question and brand my proposition as pie in the sky.

Avoiding or demeaning the argument isn't winning it.

[CabriniGreen]

@wiseguy

Let's attack it from a different angle....

In your opinion, what would you categorize the Musitanos as?

I cant see ANY members beyond the blood relatives, LITERALLY a couple of brothers.

But they were clearly widely acknowledged and respected. It's not even really clear to me WHAT they are exactly, Lcn or ndrangheta, they seem to be connected more by business than anything.

Were they NOT a family? Are they MORE a family than Buffalo?

What if Buffalo is behind the murders? What does that mean?

[Lupara]

You guys are going in circles and Wiseguy will just press on repeat. It's a waste of time. Better to just focus on continuing the discussion with those who are on the same page. There's more change you'll win the lotery than changing his opinion, which is set in stone and no evidence is going to undo.

[CabriniGreen]

Yeah, you are right...

[Lupara]

That being said, I wonder why the FBI declines to comment. Why not repeat their statement to the media if they haven't changed their minds? Their silence will only add fuel to the speculation of Buffalo's resurgance and continuing influence in Canada. Why leave room for discussion to the media and public on this matter? Is it possible there's an ongoing investigation that's looking into the recent events?

[Laurentian]

Hamilton mobster Pat Musitano expected to survive Mississauga shooting

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9331 ... m_content=

[Angelo Santino]

That being said, I wonder why the FBI declines to comment. Why not repeat their statement to the media if they haven't changed their minds? Their silence will only add fuel to the speculation of Buffalo's resurgance and continuing influence in Canada. Why leave room for discussion to the media and public on this matter? Is it possible there's an ongoing investigation that's looking into the recent events?

Could be any number of reasons. The FBI doesn't really care to correct what people write or think and quite often their "we're looking into it" can be misconstrued. Someone responded that when asked if Gene Gotti was a suspect in the Cali case which lead to him making the New York Times.

Even Violi's position could be viewed multiple ways. His elevation could point to the possibility that the bulk of Buffalo members are in Canada or it could have been a decision a la Ralph De Leo, thinking that someone not from the area would draw less heat. We don't really know the circumstances yet.

For what it's worth, if I were a criminal and had a choice, I'd choose Canada. Their laws aren't as evolved so they can get away with more. It speaks to the power of American law enforcement that the Ndrangheta hasn't attempted to set up any Locali in the USA but rather just some members/conduits.

[Lupara]

That being said, I wonder why the FBI declines to comment. Why not repeat their statement to the media if they haven't changed their minds? Their silence will only add fuel to the speculation of Buffalo's resurgance and continuing influence in Canada. Why leave room for discussion to the media and public on this matter? Is it possible there's an ongoing investigation that's looking into the recent events?

Could be any number of reasons. The FBI doesn't really care to correct what people write or think and quite often their "we're looking into it" can be misconstrued. Someone responded that when asked if Gene Gotti was a suspect in the Cali case which lead to him making the New York Times.

Even Violi's position could be viewed multiple ways. His elevation could point to the possibility that the bulk of Buffalo members are in Canada or it could have been a decision a la Ralph De Leo, thinking that someone not from the area would draw less heat. We don't really know the circumstances yet.

For what it's worth, if I were a criminal and had a choice, I'd choose Canada. Their laws aren't as evolved so they can get away with more. It speaks to the power of American law enforcement that the Ndrangheta hasn't attempted to set up any Locali in the USA but rather just some members/conduits.

But if the FBI are confident that Buffalo is non-existant it doesn't really matter if the New York times or other media pick up on it. Gene Gotti was a completely different circumstance in which everything was still uncertain and there was an ongoing investigation.

And like you say, it makes sense to operate across the border and name someone over there underboss so he could run things.

[Angelo Santino]

That being said, I wonder why the FBI declines to comment. Why not repeat their statement to the media if they haven't changed their minds? Their silence will only add fuel to the speculation of Buffalo's resurgance and continuing influence in Canada. Why leave room for discussion to the media and public on this matter? Is it possible there's an ongoing investigation that's looking into the recent events?

Could be any number of reasons. The FBI doesn't really care to correct what people write or think and quite often their "we're looking into it" can be misconstrued. Someone responded that when asked if Gene Gotti was a suspect in the Cali case which lead to him making the New York Times.

Even Violi's position could be viewed multiple ways. His elevation could point to the possibility that the bulk of Buffalo members are in Canada or it could have been a decision a la Ralph De Leo, thinking that someone not from the area would draw less heat. We don't really know the circumstances yet.

For what it's worth, if I were a criminal and had a choice, I'd choose Canada. Their laws aren't as evolved so they can get away with more. It speaks to the power of American law enforcement that the Ndrangheta hasn't attempted to set up any Locali in the USA but rather just some members/conduits.

But if the FBI are convident that Buffalo is non-existant it doesn't really matter if the New York times or other media pick up on it. Gene Gotti was a completely different circumstance in which everything was still uncertain and there was an ongoing investigation.

And like you say, it makes sense to operate across the border and name someone over there underboss so he could run things.

So that may be why they declined to comment.

Operating across the border makes sense but that may not be reason. Maybe it's a La Ralph De Leo, or nobody else wanted the job or it could have potentially involved Violi's bloodline. The speculation for years have been the Todaro's are too wrapped up into their legitimate business but that's not the way the mob generally works. And La Nova, as good as it is, isn't anything special outside of any pizza takeout joint, but being it's a cash business would potentially work at hiding income (within reason). But again, Todaro Junior could be very active in Canadian affairs or he could be a 'do nothing' boss who's getting old semi-retired in Florida.

I'm fine with waiting for more information to come out if it ever does.

[NickleCity]

That being said, I wonder why the FBI declines to comment. Why not repeat their statement to the media if they haven't changed their minds? Their silence will only add fuel to the speculation of Buffalo's resurgance and continuing influence in Canada. Why leave room for discussion to the media and public on this matter? Is it possible there's an ongoing investigation that's looking into the recent events?

Those are good questions Lupara. As to the whether or not their is an ongoing investigation: I Believe the FBI is investigating, although Chris Christie is right that fact that they decline to comment does prove there is an investigation.

Here are some other questions I think these recent events and the resulting new information raises:

Why did the FBI tell Dan Herbeck in March 2017 that the Buffalo Mob was dead?

The Otremens operation had been going on for at least a couple of years by that point and they had recorded conversations by the Bonanno CI going back to 2015. Was the FBI unaware of the operation?

Does anyone remember when Violi was recorded as saying he was made the underboss--was that September 2017? Had he already said he was a made member of Buffalo at that point? Is it possibly that Canadian LE and the FBI didn't know about the "alleged" Buffalo connection until later that year?

How much communication is there/was there between the FBI and Canadian LE? I would have to think Canadian LE new Violi was made in Buffalo before Sept. 2017 since they had recorded conversations going back to 2015. Wouldn't they have communicated that with he FBI? If not, why not?

Antimafia had shared the fact that attorney Angelo Musitano who had an office in Niagara Falls, NY on Pine Street was related to Pat and Angelo and that an April 2015 a Niagara Gazette article indicated he was no longer had permission to enter the US to practice law. This would have been around the time the Otremens operation was really getting going. Was his permission to enter the US revoked because of something learned in the Otremens operation? I can't help but think there was a connection--but can't prove it. And if there was a connection--wouldn't the FBI have known Buffalo's alleged connections to its Canadian counterparts at that time?

In July of 2018 The Niagara Gazette wrote an article about how a local Newfane Grad is back home leading the Buffalo FBI's Field Office. In Nov of 2017 the world become aware of the Otremens operation and the alleged members of the Todaro crime family who were arrested. Was a new FBI Field Director put in place in Buffalo because of what the former field director told Dan Herbeck at the Buffalo news a few months earlier in March of 2017?



Are these legitimate questions? Is my timeline off? What are your thoughts on the questions raised?

And please know I am not making any accusations about the FBI in Buffalo there could be a myriad of reasons they told Dan Herbeck at the Buffalo News what they did in March 2017 and are decline to answer questions about the possibility the Buffalo mob may be active now.

[NickleCity]

^^^^ Sept. 2017 is when Violi is heard talking about the headache of Pat Musitano being out of the way before Christmas. Not when he was talking about being made underboss.

[Wiseguy]

But WG, we as viewers don't get to decide what's what. It's similar to 2009 when Joe Ligambi was in the middle of being revered as Philly's saving grace only to find out his acting underboss is Marty Angelina which went against the narrative. George Anastasia in disbelief said "Many people think (Staino) is the actual underboss" when in all actuality Staino was guesswork based off of what we thought/assumed about Ligambi's acumen. We can try and upsize Stainos' role and argue that Angelina's too much of a fuckup to be taken serious but that's our take.

I know you disagree on what constitutes an active family, but in Mafia circles if there was a Helena, Montana crime family with ten members with no rackets and no charges for the last 20 years that's still recognized by NYC and abroad, it is what it is. We can argue their diminished capability all we want, they're still a presence even if they don't fit the NY model, even if it's merely political as was the case with D'Elia or Tronolone. If the Gambinos and Genoveses on some alternative plane decided to open up a world premier casino in Cleveland they'd have the muscle to do so with or without Cleveland's approval. But they wouldn't. They'd go to Tronolone and ask permission from the area boss despite his living in Miami or Ft Lauderdale since the 60's and having no formal structure in CL.

I see what you're saying and, in terms of La Cosa Nostra theory you may be right, but I take a more practical approach the feds do. Going by your definition, William D'Elia was still "a family" though he was basically the last man standing. Just because some guys may have certain ranks, and New York may formally recognize those ranks and still be willing to do business, that in itself doesn't mean there's any real organization left with a fully functioning hierarchy and ongoing activity. It's why I always say there are only 9 families left.

Let’s see if I can find an answer for that ‘conundrum’. Oh yeah, here’s a couple you’ve already ignored:

@ Lupara:
Let’s also look at context.

14 members inducted appears a large number, until its put into context, that this would be from 2006. That’s 13 years. Meaning an inductee per year, odd. Or one induction every 4 years with 4/5 inductees.

The math on these equations doesn’t appear incredibly unrealistic.

We also need to take into account that it is unlikely the FBI would be aware of all members. It’s not at all unlikely they were unaware of 4-5 members.

And taking into account Canada, which could easily constitute a reasonable portion, 5-10 possible members.

A mix of all three possibilities, in any weight, and you quite easily arrive at a ballpark 30 number.

I don’t see why Violi’s statement considering the above appears extraordinarily unbelievable.

Even for a minute.

Even granting you the most favorable, minimum numbers from the above, your position still appears fragile:
One induction every 4 years inducting a mere THREE members: NINE members (yup, one induction, every 4 years, three inductee's, unbelievable eh)
in addition to:
FBI unaware of perhaps a mere FOUR members:
in addition to:
Canada having a MERE FIVE members.

That's 18 members, at a minimum, with considerable potential that these numbers may be greater, and we STILL get 18 members plus the 12 cited in a 2012 report....

Wal-ah, 30 members.

The obvious conclusion is that a reasonable mix of the above three components and you can find 30 members in any one of a multiple of reasonable situations.

Now I'm not saying this is the scenario, but I've presented you with a perfectly reasonable one and one in your favor, and your only response is to avoid the question and brand my proposition as pie in the sky.

Avoiding or demeaning the argument isn't winning it.

Given the fact that you guys think Buffalo would have enough recruits to make up those figures, or that the FBI would be unaware of that many members, no wonder you buy into this idea of a resurgent Buffalo family. The underlying problem seems to be a lack of understanding about the landscape of the LCN in the 21st century. If families in New Jersey, New England, Philadelphia, and Chicago - who the FBI actually does acknowledge - are small and weak, how likely is it that Buffalo is still going?

@wiseguy

Let's attack it from a different angle....

In your opinion, what would you categorize the Musitanos as?

I cant see ANY members beyond the blood relatives, LITERALLY a couple of brothers.

But they were clearly widely acknowledged and respected. It's not even really clear to me WHAT they are exactly, Lcn or ndrangheta, they seem to be connected more by business than anything.

Were they NOT a family? Are they MORE a family than Buffalo?

What if Buffalo is behind the murders? What does that mean?

Yes, they are LCN members. There are still LCN members in several cities where there is no real viable family left.

As for Buffalo being "behind the murders," I think some of you guys have this image of Todaro giving the nod while rolling out some pizza dough.

Cut through all the theories and guesswork we see in the media that are attempting to make a Buffalo connection. The drug bust a while back - the first even semi-significant case involving Buffalo elements in years - involved some Canadian members. We've also found out that some of those Canadian members hold ranks, namely underboss and captain. And there have been some recent murders that seem to be more ripple effects of underworld fighting elsewhere in Canada rather than anything in Buffalo or anywhere else on the American side of the border.

From what I can tell at this point, there is nothing substantial to warrant accusing what the feds said about the Buffalo family - as a whole, especially in Buffalo - as being premature. All we've really seen is some fairly recent activity by some Canadian members, and that activity is more reflective of what has been going on in Canada than the current state of the Buffalo LCN.

You guys are going in circles and Wiseguy will just press on repeat. It's a waste of time. Better to just focus on continuing the discussion with those who are on the same page. There's more change you'll win the lotery than changing his opinion, which is set in stone and no evidence is going to undo.

I'm all about evidence. I just think some of you guys (and a few in the media) are trying to argue 1+1 = 5. Like I said before, give it time. Eventually this Canadian smoke will die down and things in Buffalo itself will still be relatively quiet; as they've been for the last 20 years.

Aside from the Bonannos in the early 2000's, which was a unique case involving the feds ignoring a NY family, LCN families in the U.S. aren't making "resurgences" anymore.

That being said, I wonder why the FBI declines to comment. Why not repeat their statement to the media if they haven't changed their minds? Their silence will only add fuel to the speculation of Buffalo's resurgance and continuing influence in Canada. Why leave room for discussion to the media and public on this matter? Is it possible there's an ongoing investigation that's looking into the recent events?

My guess is because 1) they've already stated the facts and stand by it; and 2) they see what's going on as a Canadian issue. How unconcerned the FBI is about a resurgent Buffalo mob should tell you everything.

For what it's worth, if I were a criminal and had a choice, I'd choose Canada. Their laws aren't as evolved so they can get away with more. It speaks to the power of American law enforcement that the Ndrangheta hasn't attempted to set up any Locali in the USA but rather just some members/conduits.

Salvine, the old poster on the Real Deal who was former law enforcement, commented on this too. Though, in his case, he was talking about the Russians and how they had a "healthy respect" for American law enforcement. Canadian law enforcement is playing catch up but they will always be crippled by weak laws that stem from a country like Canada that is so liberal. Generally speaking, liberals are weak on law enforcement. Always have been.

Why did the FBI tell Dan Herbeck in March 2017 that the Buffalo Mob was dead?

Because it is.

The Otremens operation had been going on for at least a couple of years by that point and they had recorded conversations by the Bonanno CI going back to 2015. Was the FBI unaware of the operation?

Did the bookmaking bust back in 2010 involving some members and associates in Kansas City mean there is still a viable family there? Or gambling busts in NE Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh in recent years? See where I'm going with this?

In July of 2018 The Niagara Gazette wrote an article about how a local Newfane Grad is back home leading the Buffalo FBI's Field Office. In Nov of 2017 the world become aware of the Otremens operation and the alleged members of the Todaro crime family who were arrested. Was a new FBI Field Director put in place in Buffalo because of what the former field director told Dan Herbeck at the Buffalo news a few months earlier in March of 2017?

Don't think so. If you guys think you're going to see any real change by the feds on how they view Buffalo, you're going to be disappointed.

[Lupara]

And there have been some recent murders that seem to be more ripple effects of underworld fighting elsewhere in Canada rather than anything in Buffalo or anywhere else on the American side of the border.

I'd emphasize on seem and now it is you who is using speculation as an argument. I believe that Violi was made underboss for a reason and that is to reorganize and oversee the (old) Buffalo family's remaining operations in Canada from an official position. So imo it is more likely that the hits on the Musitanos are internal house cleaning than a ripple effect from Montreal.

[Frank]

I know we've touched on the subject of who exactly are the Musitanos. Are they independent Italian mobsters, LCN, or Ndrangheta? There has been a lot of articles written in the last few years about GTA. I've read certain articles that talk about the 7 clans of the Ndrangheta in the GTA. Most of the articles don't mention the Musitanos as one of the 7.