by antimafia » Wed May 08, 2019 3:42 pm
B. wrote: âSun Jan 20, 2019 3:41 am
From the excerpt that was posted, I didn't see anything about the order for the LoPresti murder coming from the Bonanno administration, only an order being given to Rizzuto from a nonspecific source. That could be referring to Sciascia issuing the order to Rizzuto, given that he was the captain, living in New York, and said by Vitale to have been involved in the murder conspiracy. That excerpt also doesn't make it clear why the investigator thought Rizzuto contracted out the murder to another gang and we can't be sure if that's a fact, only that it's his theory. If I'm missing some information, let me know.
I'm not under the impression based on Vitale's info that Sciascia was purposely pulling off a "sneak hit" in the sense that the phrase is usually used. These guys don't typically take credit for a "sneak hit" and seek approval for it immediately after the fact. If it is true that Sciascia had LoPresti killed before seeking approval from the administration, we still don't know what the exact circumstance was that led them to carry out the murder with such urgency.
Most important to all of this -- we don't even know if Vitale was correct that LoPresti was killed before Sciascia sought approval. The way I've seen it described, Vitale and Anthony Spero had a feeling or hunch that LoPresti had already been murdered based on the way Sciascia spoke to them, but Vitale didn't seem to know the exact date Sciascia approached him so we can't map out an exact timeline and compare it to the date when LoPresti was actually murdered. It's possible Vitale's "feeling" was wrong and LoPresti was killed after Sciascia received approval.
I never posted the excerpts I had promised to back in January. Significant events started occurring in Canada's Italian underworld in late January, and I forgot about this thread. I'm responding in it now because in another thread, "Montreal Mafia status - Post Rizzuto Era," Slumpy today has asked a question about Joe Lo Presti's murder.
From chapter 7,
Les fantÎmes du passé:
Revenons au tĂ©moignage des dĂ©lateurs. Massino, lui, est plutĂŽt froid avec les enquĂȘteurs montrĂ©alais. Il sait peut-ĂȘtre quâil nâa pas grand-chose Ă gagner en leur en disant trop. Il nâa que de bons mots pour Vito Rizzuto, qui Ă©tait, selon lui, toujours avenant et offrait un bon service en cas de besoin. Il confirme toutefois que le parrain de la mafia montrĂ©alaise est devenu plus froid aprĂšs le meurtre de son ami Gerlando Sciascia, en 1999.
Salvatore Vitale est plus loquace. Câest lors de cette rencontre avec les policiers et procureurs montrĂ©alais quâil raconte ses deux visites Ă MontrĂ©al, aprĂšs lâassassinat de Sciascia. Câest au cours de ces deux voyages quâil a cru mourir et quâil a rencontrĂ© les hommes dâhonneur de la mafia montrĂ©alaise et ressenti leur colĂšre (ces deux moments sont dĂ©crits dans le chapitre 1).
Vitale confirme que câest Massino qui a commandĂ© lâĂ©limination de Gerlando Sciascia, car il trouvait que ce dernier commençait Ă prendre trop de place. Son beau-frĂšre a demandĂ© Ă ce que le crime ait lâapparence dâun rĂšglement de comptes du milieu de la drogue. Vitale ajoute que le chef du clan Bonanno se doutait trĂšs bien que le meurtre de Sciascia provoquerait la colĂšre du clan Rizzuto. Il explique que lorsquâil est revenu auprĂšs de son beau-frĂšre pour lui annoncer que Vito Rizzuto ne voulait pas du titre de parrain et quâil fallait lâoffrir Ă son pĂšre, Massino nâĂ©tait pas content, mais quâil se satisferait de cette rĂ©ponse si cela pouvait permettre de calmer les esprits et dâarranger les choses. Puis, Vitale donne une information qui est peut-ĂȘtre une rĂ©ponse Ă une question que policiers et observateurs se sont longtemps posĂ©e sur le moment oĂč la rupture a Ă©tĂ© complĂšte entre les clans Rizzuto et Bonanno : il dit quâaprĂšs le meurtre de Sciascia, les Rizzuto ont cessĂ© dâenvoyer des enveloppes dâargent Ă la famille Bonanno, ce qui laisse croire que câest Ă ce moment prĂ©cis que les MontrĂ©alais ont unilatĂ©ralement dĂ©clarĂ© leur indĂ©pendance et volĂ© de leurs propres ailes.
Vitale affirme que Sciascia nâest pas le seul ami de Vito Rizzuto dont Massino a ordonnĂ© lâĂ©limination : Giuseppe Lo Presti Ă©galement, car le chef du clan Bonanno le soupçonnait de consommer de la drogue et trouvait quâil ne le respectait plus. « Big Joe doit partir », avait dit Massino Ă Vitale. Seulement quatre mots. Ce fut assez pour que son second comprenne le message. Joseph Massino avait ordonnĂ© que le travail soit fait par le clan de Vito Rizzuto, grand ami de Lo Presti. La commande a Ă©tĂ© passĂ©e, mais le temps a filĂ© sans que rien se produise. Vitale a fait pression sur Sciascia pour quâil reparle aux Rizzuto et que le contrat soit rempli. « Je nâai pas de nouvelles, mais câest certain que ce sera fait », a rĂ©pondu Sciascia, qui tempĂ©rait et cherchait visiblement Ă gagner du temps.
Lo Presti a finalement Ă©tĂ© tuĂ© le 29 avril 1992 dâune façon que le milieu considĂšre comme « propre ». Encore aujourdâhui, les policiers ne savent pas qui a tuĂ© « Big Joe ». Des sources ont parlĂ©, des noms ont Ă©tĂ© Ă©voquĂ©s, mais une tonne de soupçons ne valent pas une once de preuve. La police croit toutefois que le clan Rizzuto a obĂ©i Ă la commande de New York, ce qui dĂ©montre, selon Lorie McDougall, quâau dĂ©but de 1992 le clan montrĂ©alais Ă©tait encore le vassal de son homologue new-yorkais.
Google Translate translation:
Let's go back to the testimony of the informers. Massino is rather cold with Montreal investigators. He may know that he does not have much to gain by telling them too much. He has only good words for Vito Rizzuto, who he said was always friendly and provided good service when needed. However, he confirms that the sponsor of the Montreal mafia became colder after the murder of his friend Gerlando Sciascia in 1999.
Salvatore Vitale is more loquacious. It was during this meeting with Montreal police and prosecutors that he recounted his two visits to Montreal after the assassination of Sciascia. It was during these two trips that he thought he died and he met the men of honor of the Montreal mafia and felt their anger (these two moments are described in chapter 1).
Vitale confirms that it was Massino who ordered the elimination of Gerlando Sciascia, because he found that it was starting to take up too much space. His brother-in-law asked that the crime look like a settling of the drug scene. Vitale adds that the leader of the Bonanno clan suspected very well that the murder of Sciascia would provoke the wrath of the Rizzuto clan. He explains that when he returned to his brother-in-law to tell him that Vito Rizzuto did not want the title of godfather and that he had to offer it to his father, Massino was not happy, but that he would be satisfied with this answer if it could calm people's minds and fix things. Then, Vitale gives information that is perhaps an answer to a question that policemen and observers have long wondered about when the rupture was complete between the Rizzuto and Bonanno clans: he says that after the murder of Sciascia, the Rizzuto stopped sending money envelopes to the Bonanno family, suggesting that it was at this moment that Montrealers unilaterally declared their independence and stumbled on their own.
Vitale says that Sciascia is not the only friend of Vito Rizzuto whose Massino ordered the elimination: Giuseppe Lo Presti also, because the leader of the Bonanno clan suspected him of using drugs and found that he no longer respected him. "Big Joe has to leave," Massino told Vitale. Only four words. It was enough for his second to understand the message. Joseph Massino had ordered that the work be done by the clan of Vito Rizzuto, great friend of Lo Presti. The order was placed, but the time went by without anything happening. Vitale lobbied Sciascia to talk to the Rizzuto again and the contract was completed. "I have no news, but it is certain that it will be done," said Sciascia, who was tempered and was obviously looking to save time.
Lo Presti was finally killed on April 29, 1992 in a way that the community considers "clean". Even today, the police do not know who killed Big Joe. Sources have spoken, names have been mentioned, but a ton of suspicions are not worth an ounce of proof. The police, however, believe that the Rizzuto clan has obeyed the New York order, which shows, according to Lorie McDougall, that in early 1992 the Montreal clan was still the vassal of his New York counterpart.[quote=B. post_id=98941 time=1547980900 user_id=127]
From the excerpt that was posted, I didn't see anything about the order for the LoPresti murder coming from the Bonanno administration, only an order being given to Rizzuto from a nonspecific source. That could be referring to Sciascia issuing the order to Rizzuto, given that he was the captain, living in New York, and said by Vitale to have been involved in the murder conspiracy. That excerpt also doesn't make it clear why the investigator thought Rizzuto contracted out the murder to another gang and we can't be sure if that's a fact, only that it's his theory. If I'm missing some information, let me know.
I'm not under the impression based on Vitale's info that Sciascia was purposely pulling off a "sneak hit" in the sense that the phrase is usually used. These guys don't typically take credit for a "sneak hit" and seek approval for it immediately after the fact. If it is true that Sciascia had LoPresti killed before seeking approval from the administration, we still don't know what the exact circumstance was that led them to carry out the murder with such urgency.
Most important to all of this -- we don't even know if Vitale was correct that LoPresti was killed before Sciascia sought approval. The way I've seen it described, Vitale and Anthony Spero had a feeling or hunch that LoPresti had already been murdered based on the way Sciascia spoke to them, but Vitale didn't seem to know the exact date Sciascia approached him so we can't map out an exact timeline and compare it to the date when LoPresti was actually murdered. It's possible Vitale's "feeling" was wrong and LoPresti was killed after Sciascia received approval.
[/quote]
I never posted the excerpts I had promised to back in January. Significant events started occurring in Canada's Italian underworld in late January, and I forgot about this thread. I'm responding in it now because in another thread, "Montreal Mafia status - Post Rizzuto Era," Slumpy today has asked a question about Joe Lo Presti's murder.
From chapter 7, [i]Les fantÎmes du passé[/i]:
[i]Revenons au tĂ©moignage des dĂ©lateurs. Massino, lui, est plutĂŽt froid avec les enquĂȘteurs montrĂ©alais. Il sait peut-ĂȘtre quâil nâa pas grand-chose Ă gagner en leur en disant trop. Il nâa que de bons mots pour Vito Rizzuto, qui Ă©tait, selon lui, toujours avenant et offrait un bon service en cas de besoin. Il confirme toutefois que le parrain de la mafia montrĂ©alaise est devenu plus froid aprĂšs le meurtre de son ami Gerlando Sciascia, en 1999.
Salvatore Vitale est plus loquace. Câest lors de cette rencontre avec les policiers et procureurs montrĂ©alais quâil raconte ses deux visites Ă MontrĂ©al, aprĂšs lâassassinat de Sciascia. Câest au cours de ces deux voyages quâil a cru mourir et quâil a rencontrĂ© les hommes dâhonneur de la mafia montrĂ©alaise et ressenti leur colĂšre (ces deux moments sont dĂ©crits dans le chapitre 1).
Vitale confirme que câest Massino qui a commandĂ© lâĂ©limination de Gerlando Sciascia, car il trouvait que ce dernier commençait Ă prendre trop de place. Son beau-frĂšre a demandĂ© Ă ce que le crime ait lâapparence dâun rĂšglement de comptes du milieu de la drogue. Vitale ajoute que le chef du clan Bonanno se doutait trĂšs bien que le meurtre de Sciascia provoquerait la colĂšre du clan Rizzuto. Il explique que lorsquâil est revenu auprĂšs de son beau-frĂšre pour lui annoncer que Vito Rizzuto ne voulait pas du titre de parrain et quâil fallait lâoffrir Ă son pĂšre, Massino nâĂ©tait pas content, mais quâil se satisferait de cette rĂ©ponse si cela pouvait permettre de calmer les esprits et dâarranger les choses. Puis, Vitale donne une information qui est peut-ĂȘtre une rĂ©ponse Ă une question que policiers et observateurs se sont longtemps posĂ©e sur le moment oĂč la rupture a Ă©tĂ© complĂšte entre les clans Rizzuto et Bonanno : il dit quâaprĂšs le meurtre de Sciascia, les Rizzuto ont cessĂ© dâenvoyer des enveloppes dâargent Ă la famille Bonanno, ce qui laisse croire que câest Ă ce moment prĂ©cis que les MontrĂ©alais ont unilatĂ©ralement dĂ©clarĂ© leur indĂ©pendance et volĂ© de leurs propres ailes.
Vitale affirme que Sciascia nâest pas le seul ami de Vito Rizzuto dont Massino a ordonnĂ© lâĂ©limination : Giuseppe Lo Presti Ă©galement, car le chef du clan Bonanno le soupçonnait de consommer de la drogue et trouvait quâil ne le respectait plus. « Big Joe doit partir », avait dit Massino Ă Vitale. Seulement quatre mots. Ce fut assez pour que son second comprenne le message. Joseph Massino avait ordonnĂ© que le travail soit fait par le clan de Vito Rizzuto, grand ami de Lo Presti. La commande a Ă©tĂ© passĂ©e, mais le temps a filĂ© sans que rien se produise. Vitale a fait pression sur Sciascia pour quâil reparle aux Rizzuto et que le contrat soit rempli. « Je nâai pas de nouvelles, mais câest certain que ce sera fait », a rĂ©pondu Sciascia, qui tempĂ©rait et cherchait visiblement Ă gagner du temps.
Lo Presti a finalement Ă©tĂ© tuĂ© le 29 avril 1992 dâune façon que le milieu considĂšre comme « propre ». Encore aujourdâhui, les policiers ne savent pas qui a tuĂ© « Big Joe ». Des sources ont parlĂ©, des noms ont Ă©tĂ© Ă©voquĂ©s, mais une tonne de soupçons ne valent pas une once de preuve. La police croit toutefois que le clan Rizzuto a obĂ©i Ă la commande de New York, ce qui dĂ©montre, selon Lorie McDougall, quâau dĂ©but de 1992 le clan montrĂ©alais Ă©tait encore le vassal de son homologue new-yorkais.[/i]
[b]Google Translate translation[/b]:
[i]Let's go back to the testimony of the informers. Massino is rather cold with Montreal investigators. He may know that he does not have much to gain by telling them too much. He has only good words for Vito Rizzuto, who he said was always friendly and provided good service when needed. However, he confirms that the sponsor of the Montreal mafia became colder after the murder of his friend Gerlando Sciascia in 1999.
Salvatore Vitale is more loquacious. It was during this meeting with Montreal police and prosecutors that he recounted his two visits to Montreal after the assassination of Sciascia. It was during these two trips that he thought he died and he met the men of honor of the Montreal mafia and felt their anger (these two moments are described in chapter 1).
Vitale confirms that it was Massino who ordered the elimination of Gerlando Sciascia, because he found that it was starting to take up too much space. His brother-in-law asked that the crime look like a settling of the drug scene. Vitale adds that the leader of the Bonanno clan suspected very well that the murder of Sciascia would provoke the wrath of the Rizzuto clan. He explains that when he returned to his brother-in-law to tell him that Vito Rizzuto did not want the title of godfather and that he had to offer it to his father, Massino was not happy, but that he would be satisfied with this answer if it could calm people's minds and fix things. Then, Vitale gives information that is perhaps an answer to a question that policemen and observers have long wondered about when the rupture was complete between the Rizzuto and Bonanno clans: he says that after the murder of Sciascia, the Rizzuto stopped sending money envelopes to the Bonanno family, suggesting that it was at this moment that Montrealers unilaterally declared their independence and stumbled on their own.
Vitale says that Sciascia is not the only friend of Vito Rizzuto whose Massino ordered the elimination: Giuseppe Lo Presti also, because the leader of the Bonanno clan suspected him of using drugs and found that he no longer respected him. "Big Joe has to leave," Massino told Vitale. Only four words. It was enough for his second to understand the message. Joseph Massino had ordered that the work be done by the clan of Vito Rizzuto, great friend of Lo Presti. The order was placed, but the time went by without anything happening. Vitale lobbied Sciascia to talk to the Rizzuto again and the contract was completed. "I have no news, but it is certain that it will be done," said Sciascia, who was tempered and was obviously looking to save time.
Lo Presti was finally killed on April 29, 1992 in a way that the community considers "clean". Even today, the police do not know who killed Big Joe. Sources have spoken, names have been mentioned, but a ton of suspicions are not worth an ounce of proof. The police, however, believe that the Rizzuto clan has obeyed the New York order, which shows, according to Lorie McDougall, that in early 1992 the Montreal clan was still the vassal of his New York counterpart.[/i]