THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **gohnjotti** » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:29 am

In Carmine Persico's 1981 pre-sentencing report, the Colombo family was reported to have 90 "active members."

by **gohnjotti** » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:47 pm

Extortion wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 pm There’s no way the colombos are bigger than the bonnanos and/or the lucheses

Certainly not today, no.

by **Extortion** » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:57 pm

There’s no way the colombos are bigger than the bonnanos and/or the lucheses

by **Wiseguy** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:36 pm

Etna wrote: ↑Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:46 pm I always read they werwnt really LCN?

They were and are but they had some differences that diminished as time went on.

by **Etna** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:46 pm

I always read they werwnt really LCN?

by **aleksandrored** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:36 pm

So Chicago never had to have many members?

by **Wiseguy** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:42 am

Etna wrote: ↑Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:06 am Wiseguy & Pogo,

Do either of you have numbers for Chicago?

1967 report: 131 listed members
1984 report: 46 cited members
1987 article: 42 cited members
1987 report: 51 cited members
1990 CCC: 66 cited members
1999 FBI list: 47 listed members
2005 article: 25 estimated members
2007 FBI: 28 cited members
2007 article: 30 estimated members

by **Etna** » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:06 am

Wiseguy & Pogo,

Do either of you have numbers for Chicago?

by **Wiseguy** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:09 am

willychichi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:11 am Some good info in this NYT article on the LCN operating in Jersey

"Twenty years ago, there were 200 made men operating crews in New Jersey and as many as 1,000 mob soldiers. Today, law enforcement officials estimate that there are fewer than 100 made men, and one official from the Attorney General's Division of Criminal Justice Services says the number may be as low as 25 made men and several hundred associates. In the 1950's and 60's, the heyday of mob activity in New Jersey, there were so many alliances and factions operating, and their influence so widespread, that La Cosa Nostra was accepted as a fixture of daily life."

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/17/nyre ... mpire.html

Seen that article before. A lot about those figures that appear wrong right off the bat. Also wish journalists would use the vernacular correctly, since soldiers are made men.

by **willychichi** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:11 am

Some good info in this NYT article on the LCN operating in Jersey

"Twenty years ago, there were 200 made men operating crews in New Jersey and as many as 1,000 mob soldiers. Today, law enforcement officials estimate that there are fewer than 100 made men, and one official from the Attorney General's Division of Criminal Justice Services says the number may be as low as 25 made men and several hundred associates. In the 1950's and 60's, the heyday of mob activity in New Jersey, there were so many alliances and factions operating, and their influence so widespread, that La Cosa Nostra was accepted as a fixture of daily life."

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/17/nyre ... mpire.html

by **AlexfromSouth** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:52 am

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:43 pm Here are some more figures.

Gambino:
1976 (before the books opened): 230 members
1983 NYPD report: 250 members and 550 associates
1988 report: 300 Members and 650 Associates
1998 article: 200-210 members
Early 2002 article: 130 members on the street
2004 article: 185 members

Genovese:
1983 article: 200+ Members
1983 NYPD report: 200 members
1988 report: 275 Members with 600 Associates
1998 article – 230-250 members
2002 article: 152 members on the street
2004 article: 164 members on the street

Bonanno:
1976 (before the books opened): 106 members
1983 NYPD report: 195 members and 500 associates
1988 report: 100 Members and 375 Associates
1998 article: 100 members
2002 article: 85 members on the street
End of 2003 article: 146 total members

Lucchese:
1976 (before the books opened): 109 members
1983 NYPD report: 110 members
1988 report: 100 Members with 500 Associates
1998 article: 100 members
2003 article: 113 total members
2004 article: 91 members on the street

Colombo:
1963/4 census: 114 members
1976 (before the books opened): 76 members
1983 NYPD report: 115 members and 500 Associates
1988 report: 120 Members with 450 Associates
2002 article: 90 members
2004 article: 65 members on the street

DeCavalcante:
1988 report: 50 members and 80 associates
2002 article: 36 members on the street
2005 report: 40-50 Members and 50 associates

where is this info from Pogo, about the number before the books opened? Is it accurate?

by **Pogo The Clown** » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:43 pm

Here are some more figures.

Gambino:
1976 (before the books opened): 230 members
1983 NYPD report: 250 members and 550 associates
1988 report: 300 Members and 650 Associates
1998 article: 200-210 members
Early 2002 article: 130 members on the street
2004 article: 185 members

Genovese:
1983 article: 200+ Members
1983 NYPD report: 200 members
1988 report: 275 Members with 600 Associates
1998 article – 230-250 members
2002 article: 152 members on the street
2004 article: 164 members on the street

Bonanno:
1976 (before the books opened): 106 members
1983 NYPD report: 195 members and 500 associates
1988 report: 100 Members and 375 Associates
1998 article: 100 members
2002 article: 85 members on the street
End of 2003 article: 146 total members

Lucchese:
1976 (before the books opened): 109 members
1983 NYPD report: 110 members
1988 report: 100 Members with 500 Associates
1998 article: 100 members
2003 article: 113 total members
2004 article: 91 members on the street

Colombo:
1963/4 census: 114 members
1976 (before the books opened): 76 members
1983 NYPD report: 115 members and 500 Associates
1988 report: 120 Members with 450 Associates
2002 article: 90 members
2004 article: 65 members on the street

DeCavalcante:
1988 report: 50 members and 80 associates
2002 article: 36 members on the street
2005 report: 40-50 Members and 50 associates

by B. » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:39 pm

Thanks for putting all of the numbers together, Wiseguy. The "accountant" of the BlackHand forum.

If anyone is curious, what Pussy Russo specifically said is that the Genovese family had 300 members circa early 1960s, with 300 associates ready to replace them. Obviously the family had more than 300 associates -- you can read this as the family having a 300 member cap and members can be added as other members die, which matches virtually all other info about induction protocol.

I made a big thread on it once, but we also have to take into account that families are not supposed to replace murdered members (though there is at least on example of an exception being made), so you should add the number of known murdered members to the caps at any given time to get an idea of what the "original" caps were, assuming the caps were always in place. If the caps were established in the 1920s or 30s, the caps would have been significantly reduced by murders by the 1960s and even moreso the 1990s. With the addition of the +2 rule in modern times, they could theoretically make up for the murdered members in time, assuming they keep up on inductions.

by **Wiseguy** » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:27 pm

Here is what I've compiled over time. Just by way of explanation, "listed" means an actual list of names. "Estimated" means simply a general, typically rounded figure. I used "cited" in those cases of a non-rounded figure, which suggests the figure wasn't just an estimate but likely stemming from an actual list of names. Obviously articles are a dime a dozen so I usually just included the most recent one.

Genovese Family
Valachi max: 450 members
Capeci max: 400 members
Russo max: 300 members
D’Arco max: 300 members
1967 report: 287 listed members
1983 report: 193 listed members
1987 report: 195 listed members
1988 report: 201 listed members
2007 Leo case: 200 estimated members
2014 article: almost 200 estimated members

Gambino Family
Capeci max: 300 members
D’Arco max: 300 members
DiLeonardo max: 260 members
1967 report: 253 listed members
1983 report: 182 listed members
1987 report: 202 listed members
1988 report: 207 listed members
2000 Isgro case: 192 cited members
2010 Marino case: 200 estimated members

Lucchese Family
Capeci max: 175 members
D’Arco max: 125-140 members
1967 report: 68 listed members
1983 report: 102 listed members
1987 report: 113 listed members
1988 report: 117 listed members
2014 article: 100 estimated members

Colombo Family
Capeci max: 200 members
D’Arco max: 150 members
Colombo 1960s census: 110 members
1967 report: 86 listed members
1983 report: 87 listed members
1987 report: 102 listed members
1988 report: 110 listed members
2014 article: 100 estimated members

Bonanno Family
Bonanno max: 300 members
Capeci max: 300 members
D'Arco max: 125-140 members
Sciacca 1960s: 170-180 members
1967 report: 101 listed members
1983 report: 120 listed members
1987 report: 109 listed members
1988 report: 112 listed members
1988 Pistone: 125 estimated members
Vitale/Massino 2000s: 150-160 members
2001 R Lino no contact list: 111 members
2003 F Lino: 12 captains, 100 soldiers
2006 Basciano case: less than 100 soldiers
2006 Eastern Dis: less than 150 members
2013 article: 100 estimated members

DeCavalcante Family
1967 report: 47 listed members
1984 Senate report: 36 listed members
1988 Senate chart: 37 listed members
1999 V Palermo: 46 cited members
2005 article: 40-50 estimated members

by **Pogo The Clown** » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:00 pm

Etna wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:14 pm Does anyone know the cap assigned the Bonanno, Colombo & Lucchese families?

From what has been posted. Not sure if Capeci is refring to their cap or just listing the biggest the family ever got. Or if there is a difference between the two. The Bonannos reached 300 members in the early days and regularly reached over the 140 max that D'Arco listed so who knows. According to Joe Bonanno the Gambinos were the biggest family so they would have had to have had well over the 300 max listed back then.

Genovese:
Capeci max: 400 members
D’Arco max: 300 members

Gambino:
Capeci max: 300 members
D’Arco max: 300 members
DiLeonardo max: 260 members

Bonanno:
Capeci max: 300 members
D'Arco max: 125-140 members

Colombo:
Capeci max: 200 members
D’Arco max: 150 members

Lucchese;
Capeci max: 175 members
D’Arco max: 125-140 members

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The Five NY Families and Jersey by the Numbers

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