THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Thought of another myth. I hear this one on shitty mob documentaries on TV sometimes.

"The mob is a bunch of punk kids today."

I'm not sure where this perception comes from. I look at the member lists and all I see is old men, with the occasional 45 year old.

Reasons about the murder of Pino Greco "Scarpuzzedda" are all myths. Francesco Marino Mannoia said it was because of a big dispute inside Cosa Nostra in 1985. The mafia war was finally finished in October 1984 after the murder of Leonardo RImi and some bosses wanted to make a big prison escape from Ucciardone. Most of those guys were from the losing side but the plan wasn't to kill them. Instead the bosses wanted to make the families strong because they lost so many men because of the high level of homicides in the previous 4 years. Riina didn't want this because he was afraid the shooting would start again but Pino Greco wanted it and so did Bagarella and so he and Bagarella were on bad terms for a few years. So Riina had Pino Greco murdered and he chased Bagarella.

The murder was easy for some reasons:

1 - Nino Madonia and Giuseppe Giacomo Gambino "Pippo" were speaking in Riina's ear about Pino from 1982 trying to make a problem so they could kill him. They didn't like how guys looked to him and how Enzo Galatolo "Enzo Alati" was in friendship with him.

2 - Pino Greco was against the murder of Pio La Torre even though he was the shooter according to Salvatore Cucuzza. He felt "used" and the murder was "useless". There was a little distance between him and Riina after this.

3. Pino Greco didn't used to attend meetings with Riina or commission meetings. He used to send his underboss Vincenzo Puccio. This made it easy to arrange his murder.

Most of the following murders - Mario Prestifilippo "Mariolino" and the other Prestifilippo's were not by Riina. It was on order of Vincenzo Puccio. Mariolino was the consigliere and he kept a distance after the murder of Pino Greco so they killed him. Another was Giovanni Fici who was friend of Pino who asked too many questions so they told his cousin FIlippo La Rosa to trap him and they killed him.

Pippo Calo put Salvatore Cucuzza under a watch because he grew a beard after the murder to show his sadness and mourning. Also, Madonia's put a watch on Enzo Alati because he too was in a friendship with Pino.

There's many myths about this guy. Another is that he was the one who killed carabiniere Lt Colonel Giuseppe Russo in 1977. Giovanni Brusca who was part of that hit squad said it was Giovannello Greco who did it. Later he changed sides against the corleonesi for some reason. Many bosses, Badalamenti, Bontate, Riccobono and I think Salvatore Scaglione were supplying information to Giuseppe Russo and having opponents arrested. According to Giovanni Brusca it was Badalamenti who sent a message to Riina about a meeting but Riina didn't go because he sensed something wrong and he was going to be arrested there. After this Riina made the decision he was going to kill all these guys as a revenge.

EDIT: Salvatore Cucuzza not Vincenzo.

even in italy today is difficult to find and kill a turncoat they all live in northern regions under fake names and italian witness protection program is among the best in the world

Rocco wrote:

Antiliar wrote:

Pogo The Clown wrote:Another myth is that the mob goes after informants or witnesses. Everytime the mob is potrayed on tv or in the movies informants and witnesses are always deathly afraid or have to go deep underground in the midde of nowhere with a group of guards in fear of the mob. As we have seen this couldn't be further from the truth. Today informants and witnesses have really nothing to fear for the mot part. Several of them even go back to the same area without any fear of retaliation.


Pogo

I don't think this one is a myth, especially going back decades. It's just not done as often today, but who knows if some suspected informants still aren't killed? Once a person is in Witness Protection, that's a different story.

The only recent case of an informant getting killed that I can think of is Frank Langano in 2006. And the Genovese associate in NJ that ratted on the Genovese family. Rumor has it he was dimed out to the cops by mob backed bookies and was arrested for gambinig and sent to prison.

The recent Gino DiPietro murder in Philly was apparently because of DiPietro being an informant. That's also a pretty textbook example of why the mob avoids killing informants these days... too much can go wrong.

I think it boils down to how stupid the victim is. If they walk about the old neighbourhood as though nothing happened, they will be in danger. Or (like Bioff) they make waves out in Las Vegas and attract attention that way. In other words, they don't think. If they kept from areas where wiseguys operate and got a legit job where there was no need to run into these guys, even in the old days they would be pretty safe from harm.

ukthesis wrote:Even in the 1960's it wasnt always the case. Herbert Itkin, a lawyer, ended up getting Tony Corallo put in jail. When they once met, all Corallo said was that Iktin did a nice job on him (with sarcasm). Allan Glick, who helped put most of the midwest mob leadership in jail in the Las Vegas cases of the 1980s, never suffered any retaliation and from memory all he needed was a fancy security system installed in his mansion.

Frankie Bal, a notorious murderer/bomber in his own right, and the guy who basically was the catalyst for putting Glick into the "strawman" position at the Stardust, had every reason to make Glick disappear. The fact that he didn't make it happen is telling and corroborates the theory in this forum thread that killing snitches in the early '80's was no longer the rule, but the exception.

ukthesis wrote:Even in the 1960's it wasnt always the case. Herbert Itkin, a lawyer, ended up getting Tony Corallo put in jail. When they once met, all Corallo said was that Iktin did a nice job on him (with sarcasm). Allan Glick, who helped put most of the midwest mob leadership in jail in the Las Vegas cases of the 1980s, never suffered any retaliation and from memory all he needed was a fancy security system installed in his mansion.

I think it depends on each boss's personality, how vengeful they are. Vito Genovese or Albert Anastasia would whacked every informant any time, others like Tony Ducks were softer maybe. It's strange though that Glick didn't suffer retaliation, I though at least Aiuppa of all defendants in that case was a ferocious guy. Maybe Accardo put a veto on hitting Glick, since he himself didn't have motive to hold big grudges, not being convicted in the Strawman case.

Even in the 1960's it wasnt always the case. Herbert Itkin, a lawyer, ended up getting Tony Corallo put in jail. When they once met, all Corallo said was that Iktin did a nice job on him (with sarcasm). Allan Glick, who helped put most of the midwest mob leadership in jail in the Las Vegas cases of the 1980s, never suffered any retaliation and from memory all he needed was a fancy security system installed in his mansion.

Antiliar wrote:

Pogo The Clown wrote:Another myth is that the mob goes after informants or witnesses. Everytime the mob is potrayed on tv or in the movies informants and witnesses are always deathly afraid or have to go deep underground in the midde of nowhere with a group of guards in fear of the mob. As we have seen this couldn't be further from the truth. Today informants and witnesses have really nothing to fear for the mot part. Several of them even go back to the same area without any fear of retaliation.


Pogo

I don't think this one is a myth, especially going back decades. It's just not done as often today, but who knows if some suspected informants still aren't killed? Once a person is in Witness Protection, that's a different story.

The only recent case of an informant getting killed that I can think of is Frank Langano in 2006. And the Genovese associate in NJ that ratted on the Genovese family. Rumor has it he was dimed out to the cops by mob backed bookies and was arrested for gambinig and sent to prison.

Pretty much sums it up. You can go back even further. In the 80s Rey Ferrito moved to Erie and ran a large gambling operation after testifying against the Cleveland leadership. Jimmy Frattiano was living openly after flipping against several families. After Louis Dragna was revealed as an informant he didn't even bother to move out of LA. In the 90s Angelo Lonardo moved back to Cleveland even though he flipped on top Bosses in Chicago.


Now of course it is even worse with several informants moving back to the areas where they flipped without any worries. One of them, that Genovese Associate, moved back to NJ and ran a gambling operation and nothing was done to him.


The only informant I can recall who got whacked after returning to his old stomping grounds was Mario Riccobene in Philly back in 1992. In the last 20-25 years the only informants I can recall being clipped while activly informing are Frank Lagano in 2006 and Gino DiPietro in Philly in 2012.


Pogo

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Pogo The Clown wrote:Another myth is that the mob goes after informants or witnesses. Everytime the mob is potrayed on tv or in the movies informants and witnesses are always deathly afraid or have to go deep underground in the midde of nowhere with a group of guards in fear of the mob. As we have seen this couldn't be further from the truth. Today informants and witnesses have really nothing to fear for the mot part. Several of them even go back to the same area without any fear of retaliation.


Pogo

I don't think this one is a myth, especially going back decades. It's just not done as often today, but who knows if some suspected informants still aren't killed? Once a person is in Witness Protection, that's a different story.

Another myth is that the mob goes after informants or witnesses. Everytime the mob is potrayed on tv or in the movies informants and witnesses are always deathly afraid or have to go deep underground in the midde of nowhere with a group of guards in fear of the mob. As we have seen this couldn't be further from the truth. Today informants and witnesses have really nothing to fear for the mot part. Several of them even go back to the same area without any fear of retaliation.


Pogo

I expect that my own estimate might be on the low side, since I tried to only include those where there was a harder connection between a murder and the War. But I don't believe it's far off the true total, whatever that was. I would ideally place the names in two groups - one of "proven" victims of the War (eg those named by the participants) and those who were "probably" Cast. War victims based on less clear-cut deductions.

Lupara wrote:We compiled some 25 or so murders during the Castellammarese war on the old forum. That's pretty bloodletting if you ask me. Without a doubt, the Castellammarese and the Montreal wars were the biggest in the history of the North-American Mafia. Both are major wars in their own right, with the 1930-31 war being more significant and Montreal having even more bodies. It's amazing that a war such as in Montreal happened during this day and age.

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It's a relative thing. 25 murders across the country during what's been described as the biggest mob war in American history is not that huge to me, especially with the myths saying there were 60+ murders and bodies lining the streets. 25 would still be significant of course, assuming they all were actually because of the war and not other reasons as Dave has said.