by B. » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:38 pm
antimafia wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:05 pm
B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:51 pm
Laurentian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:12 am
SILENT PARTNERZ wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:32 am
B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:05 am
Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.
The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.
Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.
Did the Montreal crew, either under Cotroni or Rizzuto leadership, have or need the NYC Bonnano authority to make new members?
If not authorized by NYC, did they make guys anyway?
I am not totally sure about under the Rizzuto reign, but under the Vincenzo Cotroni - Paolo Violi tenure, Montreal had to request permission from the Bonanno Family to make new members, this of course after the Bonanno's got themselves permission from the four other NYC Families. That was evidenced by wiretaps that were played at the Quebec Crime Commission Probe, which inquired into the activities of the Mafia in Montréal, in November and December 1975.
JD also posted that as of 2004, there was some communication related to deceased members, as Frank Cotroni showed up on a Bonanno proposed member list as one of the names being replaced, indicating that the Bonanno leadership still factored Montreal into their membership slots. Romeo Bucci also appeared on a similar list from the 90s.
There is a doc from the 1960s that indicates Montreal handled the actual inductions themselves (requiring permission from NY, of course), which seems to be the belief for the Rizzuto era as well, but not sure. Could easily be a little bit of both over the years.
I've also wondered about Violi's "six year wait" rule. He apparently said that members made in Sicily (Italy as well?) had to wait six years in some kind of probationary period to officially transfer to the Montreal decina. Now that we know other families like the DeCavalcantes and even possibly the Gambinos allowed Sicilian men of honor to transfer, I wonder if this six year rule was mafia-wide, a Bonanno rule, or specific to the Montreal crew. Violi was an acting captain who hadn't been running things for long, so it's unlikely he came up with the rule himself. The rule must have come from or been approved by Cotroni or the Bonanno leadership originally.
I'm not at home to consult my books and my notes; so I'm going by memory here.
The probationary period of five years was not Violi's invention. Between 1972 and 1974, he explained what appeared to be a
Commission rule, as well as other finer shadings of rules, to the Sicilian men of honour Carmelo Salemi and Giuseppe Cuffaro who visited him at the Reggio Bar in Montreal and who spoke with him over the phone; Pietro Sciara, born in Siculiana and raised in Cattolica Eraclea, was also present on at least one of these occasions. After receiving felice's help to determine which publication contained the Italian-language transcripts of Violi's interaction with the aforementioned Sicilians, I finally ordered
Mafia: l'atto d'accusa dei giudici di Palermo last December and received it in January some seven weeks later.
I have assumed that the Commission rule, which reinforces the argument that a made member of a Sicilian CN family could not simultaneously be a made member of an American LCN family--he would have to transfer from one to the other--also applied to made members of other secret societies; however, as much as others and I may argue for the impossibility of dual membership in the US and Canada, which I do, we don't know for certain whether 'ndrangheta members who found themselves in these two countries were ever able to transfer to an American LCN family and transfer back.
As much as Violi was a made Bonanno who was enforcing the rule that came from the Commission, I'm of the firm opinion he straddled two worlds. He had deep connections to the 'ndrangheta on the Italian mainland--maybe even to 'ndrangheta groups in Australia, as did his father-in-law, Giacomo Luppino--and he may or may not have realized the contradiction of telling Sicilian men of honour that they couldn't do this and that in Montreal, while he looked the other way when it came to his own affairs and that of other Calabrians in Canada who were inducted into the 'ndrangheta or were in its orbit. For example, Violi's telling the Sicilian men of honour that they couldn't talk in Canada about their goings-on in Sicily has been correctly interpreted over the decades as more evidence of the separateness of the American LCN and Sicilian CN, i.e., they are two separate organizations; yet in the early 1970s, 'ndrangheta member Saverio Mammoliti told two undercover FBI agents who were interested in purchasing cocaine and heroin from him that he needed the assent of three people: 'ndrangheta superbosses Mommo Piromalli and Antonio Macrì for the coke, and Paolo Violi for the heroin.
In books and articles, the presence of 'ndrangheta members in Quebec has hardly been written about at all, especially compared with how much has been written about 'ndrangheta members in Ontario. What has occurred to me is that although Violi was definitely a made Bonanno, the brothers who followed him to Canada could very well have been 'ndranghetisti. I am left wondering how it was possible that someone with Violi's talents and connections was never inducted into the 'ndrangheta back in Sinopoli or in Canada. Vic Cotroni (might have been Frank?) gave 'ndrangheta members in Quebec the opportunity to hold meetings in one of his establishments--when I get home later, I'll have to check whether I got this right, as the establishment might have belonged to someone else. There was at least one Siderno Group member, Domenico Torrente, who at the very least would be considered an associate of the Montreal Mafia--he was Giuseppe Cotroni's driver but also owned a night club. On the other hand, Torrente also seemed to defer to Mike Racco of Toronto, the longtime head of the Siderno Group there, as Torrente was heard talking to him on wiretaps about mediating a beef he had with 'ndrangheta member Vincenzo Melia (I can't recall whether Melia was living in Montreal at the time of the dispute).
I sometimes assert on forums like these that Luppino had to have been a 'ndrangheta member because he could not simultaneously have been a made member of the Buffalo Family. But what if he had been able to transfer to the Buffalo Family under Magaddino's watch? In the 1960s, Luppino had been heard on wiretaps telling Johnny Papalia in person that, in Ontario, Luppino seemed to have been appointed by Magaddino as the command centre and that "[w}e are all under the Commission." (I'll correct the quote later if necessary.) So what was Luppino doing when establishing a 'ndrangheta board of control in 1962 whose sitting members were considered part of the Siderno Group? Why did Luppino and Papalia talk to each other about two of the board members who were eventually murdered in unsolved cases? Why were the former considered suspects in the murders of the latter? If Luppino and his son Natale sponsored Paul Volpe into the Buffalo Family, were the two Luppinos present for Volpe's induction ceremony?
It is not a given that all five of Giacomo Luppino's sons and all five of his sons-in-law are or were 'ndrangheta members. This would also apply to the grandsons such as Paolo Violi's sons Domenico and Giuseppe, whose names have been mentioned a number of times since last November in association with the Gambino Family, Bonanno Family, and--depending on how you read the DOJ's news release--the Buffalo Family (now named the "Todaro organized crime family").
I am aware I got a little off topic.
Excellent post!
If Violi said it was Commission orders on the transfer rule, then that is exactly where I was going by bringing that up. It's unlikely Violi or even the Montreal decina as a whole would have had the authority to make a decision that would impact different families/groups without some kind of higher authority.
On one of the Magaddino wiretaps, I believe he refers to the elder Luppino as a Camorrista. There is reason to believe that 'ndranghetisi/Camorristi are less narroow-minded when it comes to affiliations, i.e. they are open to their members being formally affiliated with other groups, while the Sicilian and US mafia is not. There is the well-known example of some Camorra bosses being inducted into the Sicilian mafia, for example, though I am way outside of my territory talking about this. That may explain how the Luppinos and others under the Magaddino banner were able to operate in two different organizations, if that is indeed what they did.
Something else to remember, re: "someone of Violi's talents" not being a member of the 'ndrangheta, is that at the time he came up in Canada, having an affiliation with a US mafia group like the Bonanno or Magaddino family was worth its weight in gold. It's only been in recent decades that those affiliations have less weight. It seems that if Violi was not an 'ndrangheta member before joining the Bonannos, him joining them later would have just been a way to honor his heritage and relatives and had little value or bearing on his role in the Canadian underworld given the status he had as Bonanno acting captain.
[quote=antimafia post_id=72079 time=1521587134 user_id=113]
[quote=B. post_id=72064 time=1521579080 user_id=127]
[quote=Laurentian post_id=72049 time=1521569536 user_id=103]
[quote="SILENT PARTNERZ" post_id=72045 time=1521563538 user_id=5369]
[quote=B. post_id=72005 time=1521536714 user_id=127]
Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.
The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.
Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.
[/quote]
Did the Montreal crew, either under Cotroni or Rizzuto leadership, have or need the NYC Bonnano authority to make new members?
If not authorized by NYC, did they make guys anyway?
[/quote]
I am not totally sure about under the Rizzuto reign, but under the Vincenzo Cotroni - Paolo Violi tenure, Montreal had to request permission from the Bonanno Family to make new members, this of course after the Bonanno's got themselves permission from the four other NYC Families. That was evidenced by wiretaps that were played at the Quebec Crime Commission Probe, which inquired into the activities of the Mafia in Montréal, in November and December 1975.
[/quote]
JD also posted that as of 2004, there was some communication related to deceased members, as Frank Cotroni showed up on a Bonanno proposed member list as one of the names being replaced, indicating that the Bonanno leadership still factored Montreal into their membership slots. Romeo Bucci also appeared on a similar list from the 90s.
There is a doc from the 1960s that indicates Montreal handled the actual inductions themselves (requiring permission from NY, of course), which seems to be the belief for the Rizzuto era as well, but not sure. Could easily be a little bit of both over the years.
[color=#FF0000]I've also wondered about Violi's "six year wait" rule. He apparently said that members made in Sicily (Italy as well?) had to wait six years in some kind of probationary period to officially transfer to the Montreal decina. Now that we know other families like the DeCavalcantes and even possibly the Gambinos allowed Sicilian men of honor to transfer, I wonder if this six year rule was mafia-wide, a Bonanno rule, or specific to the Montreal crew. Violi was an acting captain who hadn't been running things for long, so it's unlikely he came up with the rule himself. The rule must have come from or been approved by Cotroni or the Bonanno leadership originally.[/color]
[/quote]
I'm not at home to consult my books and my notes; so I'm going by memory here.
The probationary period of five years was not Violi's invention. Between 1972 and 1974, he explained what appeared to be a [b]Commission[/b] rule, as well as other finer shadings of rules, to the Sicilian men of honour Carmelo Salemi and Giuseppe Cuffaro who visited him at the Reggio Bar in Montreal and who spoke with him over the phone; Pietro Sciara, born in Siculiana and raised in Cattolica Eraclea, was also present on at least one of these occasions. After receiving felice's help to determine which publication contained the Italian-language transcripts of Violi's interaction with the aforementioned Sicilians, I finally ordered [i]Mafia: l'atto d'accusa dei giudici di Palermo[/i] last December and received it in January some seven weeks later.
I have assumed that the Commission rule, which reinforces the argument that a made member of a Sicilian CN family could not simultaneously be a made member of an American LCN family--he would have to transfer from one to the other--also applied to made members of other secret societies; however, as much as others and I may argue for the impossibility of dual membership in the US and Canada, which I do, we don't know for certain whether 'ndrangheta members who found themselves in these two countries were ever able to transfer to an American LCN family and transfer back.
As much as Violi was a made Bonanno who was enforcing the rule that came from the Commission, I'm of the firm opinion he straddled two worlds. He had deep connections to the 'ndrangheta on the Italian mainland--maybe even to 'ndrangheta groups in Australia, as did his father-in-law, Giacomo Luppino--and he may or may not have realized the contradiction of telling Sicilian men of honour that they couldn't do this and that in Montreal, while he looked the other way when it came to his own affairs and that of other Calabrians in Canada who were inducted into the 'ndrangheta or were in its orbit. For example, Violi's telling the Sicilian men of honour that they couldn't talk in Canada about their goings-on in Sicily has been correctly interpreted over the decades as more evidence of the separateness of the American LCN and Sicilian CN, i.e., they are two separate organizations; yet in the early 1970s, 'ndrangheta member Saverio Mammoliti told two undercover FBI agents who were interested in purchasing cocaine and heroin from him that he needed the assent of three people: 'ndrangheta superbosses Mommo Piromalli and Antonio Macrì for the coke, and Paolo Violi for the heroin.
In books and articles, the presence of 'ndrangheta members in Quebec has hardly been written about at all, especially compared with how much has been written about 'ndrangheta members in Ontario. What has occurred to me is that although Violi was definitely a made Bonanno, the brothers who followed him to Canada could very well have been 'ndranghetisti. I am left wondering how it was possible that someone with Violi's talents and connections was never inducted into the 'ndrangheta back in Sinopoli or in Canada. Vic Cotroni (might have been Frank?) gave 'ndrangheta members in Quebec the opportunity to hold meetings in one of his establishments--when I get home later, I'll have to check whether I got this right, as the establishment might have belonged to someone else. There was at least one Siderno Group member, Domenico Torrente, who at the very least would be considered an associate of the Montreal Mafia--he was Giuseppe Cotroni's driver but also owned a night club. On the other hand, Torrente also seemed to defer to Mike Racco of Toronto, the longtime head of the Siderno Group there, as Torrente was heard talking to him on wiretaps about mediating a beef he had with 'ndrangheta member Vincenzo Melia (I can't recall whether Melia was living in Montreal at the time of the dispute).
I sometimes assert on forums like these that Luppino had to have been a 'ndrangheta member because he could not simultaneously have been a made member of the Buffalo Family. But what if he had been able to transfer to the Buffalo Family under Magaddino's watch? In the 1960s, Luppino had been heard on wiretaps telling Johnny Papalia in person that, in Ontario, Luppino seemed to have been appointed by Magaddino as the command centre and that "[w}e are all under the Commission." (I'll correct the quote later if necessary.) So what was Luppino doing when establishing a 'ndrangheta board of control in 1962 whose sitting members were considered part of the Siderno Group? Why did Luppino and Papalia talk to each other about two of the board members who were eventually murdered in unsolved cases? Why were the former considered suspects in the murders of the latter? If Luppino and his son Natale sponsored Paul Volpe into the Buffalo Family, were the two Luppinos present for Volpe's induction ceremony?
It is not a given that all five of Giacomo Luppino's sons and all five of his sons-in-law are or were 'ndrangheta members. This would also apply to the grandsons such as Paolo Violi's sons Domenico and Giuseppe, whose names have been mentioned a number of times since last November in association with the Gambino Family, Bonanno Family, and--depending on how you read the DOJ's news release--the Buffalo Family (now named the "Todaro organized crime family").
I am aware I got a little off topic.
[/quote]
Excellent post!
If Violi said it was Commission orders on the transfer rule, then that is exactly where I was going by bringing that up. It's unlikely Violi or even the Montreal decina as a whole would have had the authority to make a decision that would impact different families/groups without some kind of higher authority.
On one of the Magaddino wiretaps, I believe he refers to the elder Luppino as a Camorrista. There is reason to believe that 'ndranghetisi/Camorristi are less narroow-minded when it comes to affiliations, i.e. they are open to their members being formally affiliated with other groups, while the Sicilian and US mafia is not. There is the well-known example of some Camorra bosses being inducted into the Sicilian mafia, for example, though I am way outside of my territory talking about this. That may explain how the Luppinos and others under the Magaddino banner were able to operate in two different organizations, if that is indeed what they did.
Something else to remember, re: "someone of Violi's talents" not being a member of the 'ndrangheta, is that at the time he came up in Canada, having an affiliation with a US mafia group like the Bonanno or Magaddino family was worth its weight in gold. It's only been in recent decades that those affiliations have less weight. It seems that if Violi was not an 'ndrangheta member before joining the Bonannos, him joining them later would have just been a way to honor his heritage and relatives and had little value or bearing on his role in the Canadian underworld given the status he had as Bonanno acting captain.