THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **Villain** » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:20 am

FriendofFamily wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:46 am I was talking with someone who said their Great Uncle was a Al Capone Bodyguard:

This Guy was named Frank and his Wife/Girlfriend was Lu Lu - they didn't remember the Last Name unfortunately

Any Idea if this person exists or just more family folklore - this is definitely for you researchers

Dont get me wrong but Capone allegedly had hundreds of bodyguards, same as chauffeurs. He had three or four top guys such as Rio, D'Andrea or Campagna but he also had the LaCavas and the DiGiovannis, while guys like Heeney and Maddox were also some sort of top security chiefs. For example, according to one newspaper reporter who allegedly went to visit Capone and ask him a few questions, he was first welcomed by Volpe,who in turn was Capone's chief secretary and took him through a long "tunnel of bodyguards" who were just standing there, all the way to Al's room.

Capone was a big and constant target and so he needed a lot of protection...he even had detectives and policemen sometimes doing the job

by **FriendofFamily** » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:46 am

I was talking with someone who said their Great Uncle was a Al Capone Bodyguard:

This Guy was named Frank and his Wife/Girlfriend was Lu Lu - they didn't remember the Last Name unfortunately

Any Idea if this person exists or just more family folklore - this is definitely for you researchers

by **Villain** » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:58 am

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:54 am I understood, thanks for the answers guys.

You're always welcome buddy

by **aleksandrored** » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:54 am

I understood, thanks for the answers guys.

by **Villain** » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:07 am

Confederate wrote: ↑Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:04 am
aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:23 pm Guys, does anyone know how many members the Outfit had at its peak?
That's a loaded question that could trigger 10 pages of debate. Being a member of the Outfit and being a made guy in the National LCN were two different things. I would say members of the Outfit (not necessarily made members in the National LCN) were probably several hundred during the late 1920's. After that, maybe 300 during the Giancana era. Roemer said 300, Villain and I have almost 250 on our chart and we probably left out 50. Again, this means actual full fledged memebers of the Outfit who belonged to Crews. That number does not reflect actual made members of the National LCN which would have been maybe 25% of that 300 number. To most members of the Outfit, it didn't matter to them if some guy in Buffalo New York didn't recognize them as a made member of LCN. Who cares? The guys in other cities usually only dealt with top level guys in the Outfit, most of whom belonged to the National LCN. I say most because there were top level Guys like Murray Humphreys, Gus Alex, Ralph Pierce, les Kruse etc. who were full fledged Outfit members, but not members of the National LCN because they were not Italian.

Nicely said

by **Confederate** » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:04 am

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:23 pm Guys, does anyone know how many members the Outfit had at its peak?

That's a loaded question that could trigger 10 pages of debate. Being a member of the Outfit and being a made guy in the National LCN were two different things. I would say members of the Outfit (not necessarily made members in the National LCN) were probably several hundred during the late 1920's. After that, maybe 300 during the Giancana era. Roemer said 300, Villain and I have almost 250 on our chart and we probably left out 50. Again, this means actual full fledged memebers of the Outfit who belonged to Crews. That number does not reflect actual made members of the National LCN which would have been maybe 25% of that 300 number. To most members of the Outfit, it didn't matter to them if some guy in Buffalo New York didn't recognize them as a made member of LCN. Who cares? The guys in other cities usually only dealt with top level guys in the Outfit, most of whom belonged to the National LCN. I say most because there were top level Guys like Murray Humphreys, Gus Alex, Ralph Pierce, les Kruse etc. who were full fledged Outfit members, but not members of the National LCN because they were not Italian.

by **Villain** » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:44 am

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:23 pm Guys, does anyone know how many members and associates Outfit had at its peak?

I really cant remember the number which was given by Roemer but once i counted almost 200 members, including some of the high level non-Italians and im talking about the late 50s and early 60s

by **aleksandrored** » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:23 pm

Guys, does anyone know how many members and associates Outfit had at its peak?

by **Confederate** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:00 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:33 am Here are two reports which prove that even since the old days they used the same terms, meaning one is from an informant who said "Out West" and the other is from a police investigator who reported "The Mafia on the South Side"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... h=out_west

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... roti_mafia

Yes, Very good. There were actually 4 big Territory Bosses like we discussed during the time that Chicago Heights was a power from the documentations: North, West, South, Far South. If you look at a map of Chicago which includes Cook County etc., the South Side and Far South Suburbs are considerably larger geographically than either the North/North Suburbs & West/West Suburbs.

by **Villain** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:33 am

Here are two reports which prove that even since the old days they used the same terms, meaning one is from an informant who said "Out West" and the other is from a police investigator who reported "The Mafia on the South Side"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... h=out_west

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... roti_mafia

by **Villain** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:24 am

Confederate wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:15 am
Villain wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:18 am
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 pm *Question though for Villain, Snakes, Pete, everyone: several years ago there was an ongoing debate regarding Outfit admins being an extension of whatever crew was in charge and that each enjoyed a great deal of autonomy. Is this still a valid ongoing theory? Given the amount of bs that get's presented and discredited it's hard to keep up with.
Thats a natural process, like for example Ricca, Nitti, Campagna, Rio, and Giancana were all Westsiders, especially from around the Near West Side or Taylor St area, who later managed to spread their influence all around the organization and commanded respect and dictated everything which went down. I wouldnt separate the Outfit on crews but instead on sides. Like for example, the Westsiders included Taylor St crew, Elmwood Park crew, Melrose Park and Stone Park crews (future Grand Av crew) and northern Cicero crew, as for the South Side faction it included Near South Side and Loop crew, Chinatown crew, Chicago Heights crew, southern Cicero crew and Northwest Indiana crew. The so-called Northsiders included Near North Side crew, Lake View crew and Rogers Park crew. These crews, in these three separate territories were in alliance with each other and I think that during the decades or in the end, the Westsiders won the "cold war" by absorbing most of the crews and territories under their jurisdiction such as Cicero, Lake View and Chinatown, since they kept their spot at the top administration since the 1930's, with a small disruption during the 1940's. I also believe that this was the way they divided themselves during the old days, such as West, North and South and some times they also used names, like for example when Battaglia controlled more than a half of the West Side they called it Battaglia's Outfit.

By the way, today or tomorrow Ill post the final look of the crew succession list which we previously made and it extends from the 1920's until today, and every crew will be explained with a short bio.
That's also a valid way of looking at the evolution of how the West Side came to dominate the Outfit. It's also the way the Chicago Crime Commission looked at the Outfit in 1997. They divided it into three basic territories: West, North & South. The only difference is that they put Elmwood Park in the North and had DiFronzo on the Top Level with a South Side Advisor (LaPietra) and a West Side Advisor (Lombardo). Notice: they didn't call either one of them a "Consigliere". Then, they had Three big Underbosses: Andriacchi (North), Centracchio (West) & Monteleone (South). under them were several smaller Street Bosses who had men working under them in their Crews.

They had Elmwood Park on the North because after the death of Solano in 1992, they also completely entered in some parts of that area.

by **Confederate** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:15 am

Villain wrote: ↑Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:18 am
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 pm *Question though for Villain, Snakes, Pete, everyone: several years ago there was an ongoing debate regarding Outfit admins being an extension of whatever crew was in charge and that each enjoyed a great deal of autonomy. Is this still a valid ongoing theory? Given the amount of bs that get's presented and discredited it's hard to keep up with.
Thats a natural process, like for example Ricca, Nitti, Campagna, Rio, and Giancana were all Westsiders, especially from around the Near West Side or Taylor St area, who later managed to spread their influence all around the organization and commanded respect and dictated everything which went down. I wouldnt separate the Outfit on crews but instead on sides. Like for example, the Westsiders included Taylor St crew, Elmwood Park crew, Melrose Park and Stone Park crews (future Grand Av crew) and northern Cicero crew, as for the South Side faction it included Near South Side and Loop crew, Chinatown crew, Chicago Heights crew, southern Cicero crew and Northwest Indiana crew. The so-called Northsiders included Near North Side crew, Lake View crew and Rogers Park crew. These crews, in these three separate territories were in alliance with each other and I think that during the decades or in the end, the Westsiders won the "cold war" by absorbing most of the crews and territories under their jurisdiction such as Cicero, Lake View and Chinatown, since they kept their spot at the top administration since the 1930's, with a small disruption during the 1940's. I also believe that this was the way they divided themselves during the old days, such as West, North and South and some times they also used names, like for example when Battaglia controlled more than a half of the West Side they called it Battaglia's Outfit.

By the way, today or tomorrow Ill post the final look of the crew succession list which we previously made and it extends from the 1920's until today, and every crew will be explained with a short bio.

That's also a valid way of looking at the evolution of how the West Side came to dominate the Outfit. It's also the way the Chicago Crime Commission looked at the Outfit in 1997. They divided it into three basic territories: West, North & South. The only difference is that they put Elmwood Park in the North and had DiFronzo on the Top Level with a South Side Advisor (LaPietra) and a West Side Advisor (Lombardo). Notice: they didn't call either one of them a "Consigliere". Then, they had Three big Underbosses: Andriacchi (North), Centracchio (West) & Monteleone (South). under them were several smaller Street Bosses who had men working under them in their Crews.

by **Villain** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:18 am

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 pm *Question though for Villain, Snakes, Pete, everyone: several years ago there was an ongoing debate regarding Outfit admins being an extension of whatever crew was in charge and that each enjoyed a great deal of autonomy. Is this still a valid ongoing theory? Given the amount of bs that get's presented and discredited it's hard to keep up with.

Thats a natural process, like for example Ricca, Nitti, Campagna, Rio, and Giancana were all Westsiders, especially from around the Near West Side or Taylor St area, who later managed to spread their influence all around the organization and commanded respect and dictated everything which went down. I wouldnt separate the Outfit on crews but instead on sides. Like for example, the Westsiders included Taylor St crew, Elmwood Park crew, Melrose Park and Stone Park crews (future Grand Av crew) and northern Cicero crew, as for the South Side faction it included Near South Side and Loop crew, Chinatown crew, Chicago Heights crew, southern Cicero crew and Northwest Indiana crew. The so-called Northsiders included Near North Side crew, Lake View crew and Rogers Park crew. These crews, in these three separate territories were in alliance with each other and I think that during the decades or in the end, the Westsiders won the "cold war" by absorbing most of the crews and territories under their jurisdiction such as Cicero, Lake View and Chinatown, since they kept their spot at the top administration since the 1930's, with a small disruption during the 1940's. I also believe that this was the way they divided themselves during the old days, such as West, North and South and some times they also used names, like for example when Battaglia controlled more than a half of the West Side they called it Battaglia's Outfit.

By the way, today or tomorrow Ill post the final look of the crew succession list which we previously made and it extends from the 1920's until today, and every crew will be explained with a short bio.

by **Confederate** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:34 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 pm Another coupla projects which may be interesting, but volcanic would be perhaps breaking down these crews individually and showing their succession of Capos/Streetbosses/Whatever as well as soldiers. It would have to be done by era and we'd all have to agree on some parameters. If this is feasible maybe something to think on.

*Question though for Villain, Snakes, Pete, everyone: several years ago there was an ongoing debate regarding Outfit admins being an extension of whatever crew was in charge and that each enjoyed a great deal of autonomy. Is this still a valid ongoing theory? Given the amount of bs that get's presented and discredited it's hard to keep up with.

Second, early 1920's Chicago gangs, I'd be open to making a gang chart on that era. It doesn't have to be limited to Itals. Given the lack of insider knowledge on gang structure it can be as simplified as Leaders and Members or Boss, Leaders, Members; whatever.

I think the theory of the Outfit Administration being an extension of one sometimes two crews that are in Charge is a very valid discussion.
Based upon my research over the last 6 months whih has been extensive, the evidence that I saw that represented this theory came about as follows:
1). When Giancana was the Top Boss on the street, the Taylor Street Crew seemed to be the central power of the Outfit with Giancana, Ricca who supoorted him and Accardo who was with Elmwood Park. the #2 Crew was Ferraro. It apeared to me that Battaglia & Bucciere were Giancana's right hand men and all the guys directly with them made up a big powerful Crew called Taylor St. The other Crews seemed to answser to him and there was some money passed up to the Administration from the other Crews on SOME things, but not on other things that were autonomous.
2). When Auippa became the Top Boss on the Street for the Outfit, the Cicero Crew semed to be the central power of the Outfit with Auippa, Cerone and Accardo. Within the Cicero Crew it appeared that Ferriola and Carlisi were Auippa's right hand men and all the guys with them made up the Cicero Crew. Cerone's Elmwood Park Crew was the #2 with Cerone being in charge. Some things were shared with Auippa and Cerone from the other Crews but not on things that were autonomous. Also, the skim from Las Vegas went to Auippa and Cerone and THEY shared some of it with Lombardo and LaPietra. That's why all four went to Jail in the mid 80's.
3). When Carlisi became the Top Boss of the Outfit on the Street the Melrose Parl Crew (which was part of Cicero) now became the dominant power.
The Elmwood park crew under DiFronzo was the #2. Ferriola and the other Crews Bosses shared some things woth Carlisi and DiFronfronzo that were not Autonomous.
4). When DiFronzo became the Top Boss of the Outfit on the street, Elmwood Park became the dominant crew uunder him. I do not remember who was the #2. It could have been Monteleone who was Boss of Cicero. some things were shared with those two crews that were not autonomous.
5). When Marcello became the Top Boss of the Outfit, Melrose Park became the dominant Crew because DiFronzo pulled bach himself AND his guys.
6). When Sarno became the Top Boss of the Outfit, the Cicero Crew now became the Dominant Crew.
All of these Top Bosses and Underbosses never gave up their Crews to someone else. They were in Charge of their Crews with one or two right hand men, depending on how big the Crew was at a particular time. They never gave up their power base. In fact it seemed that their power base was the REASON why they became a Top Boss over other Crew Bosses.Also, the F.B.I. reports never seperated them from their Crews:
1). Giancana was ALWAYS associated with Taylor St. and had DIRECT contact with all his men.
2). Auippa was always associated with Cicero/Melrose Park.
3). Carlisi, same thing. In fact, when the F.B.I. put Carlisi in jail, they called it the Sam Carlisi Crew. No other people from any other Crew were involved.
4). DiFronzo, same thing. the Feds always related DIFronzo to Elmwood Park.
5). Marcello always was refeered to as the Boss of Melrose Park when he was the Top Boss on the street.
6). Sarno was always referred to as the Boss of Cicero AND the Top Boss on the Street by the Feds.

That is my conclusion based upon all those facts so I think it is a very real possibilty that the Outfit did operate a little differently than New York in this regard along with other things like non Italians high up in the Organization, No finger pricking Ceremony for quite awhile etc. They were part of the National Mafia, but they did do SOME things their own way.

by **cavita** » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:57 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:13 pm Another coupla projects which may be interesting, but volcanic would be perhaps breaking down these crews individually and showing their succession of Capos/Streetbosses/Whatever as well as soldiers. It would have to be done by era and we'd all have to agree on some parameters. If this is feasible maybe something to think on.

*Question though for Villain, Snakes, Pete, everyone: several years ago there was an ongoing debate regarding Outfit admins being an extension of whatever crew was in charge and that each enjoyed a great deal of autonomy. Is this still a valid ongoing theory? Given the amount of bs that get's presented and discredited it's hard to keep up with.

Second, early 1920's Chicago gangs, I'd be open to making a gang chart on that era. It doesn't have to be limited to Itals. Given the lack of insider knowledge on gang structure it can be as simplified as Leaders and Members or Boss, Leaders, Members; whatever.

John Binder's latest book has some really good info on all the 1920s gangs that were around.. those that were working with Capone and those against.

THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Chicago Outfit Lineage Chart 1928-2017

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