New Italian president

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Re: New Italian president

by jimmyb » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:36 pm

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/201 ... rother.cnn

I wish she would ask him about his father and his uncles.

Re: New Italian president

by Dwalin2014 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:53 am

jimmyb wrote: Here's where I'm ignorant though: If Rimi was not official capomafia, are you saying he could not be regional rappresentante? Letizia Paoli places Rimi in that position. I think I read this in an Italian newspaper article too. I'd have to look through my files though.
I don't know, to be honest. If it was the Agrigento province, it would definitely be possible: there, in many cases the capi-mandamento were not at the same time bosses of any families. For example, on a certain point FIlippo Sciara was the boss of the Siculiana family, but he wasn't the capo of the Siculiana mandamento: that position was covered by another family member, GIuseppe Renna. I'm not sure though if it works in the same way in the Trapani province; but if it does, then I guess Vincenzo Rimi could indeed have been provincial rappresentante.

Re: New Italian president

by Angelo Santino » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:52 am

The Castellammaresi got around, being a coastal village the main diet was fish still to this day. They were reknowned in the 1800's for being great sailors. As a result, Castellammaresi we re in Rome and Tunis since the 1870's.

And while that's non-OC related. Joe Bonanno in his youth in CDC, wanted to be a sailor (the dominant and most esteemed job in that area) and Nicola Schiro was involved in passport and travel.

Re: New Italian president

by jimmyb » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:36 am

Dwailin2014:

I agree with you, I don't think Vincenzo Rimi was ever official capomafia in Alcamo. I know Giovanni Stellino was the Alcamo boss during the post-war era. Other powerful members including Carlo Rimi, Stefano Leale (as you pointed out), and the Gallo Brothers. Serfino Mancuso was Frankie Coppola's man in the Alcamo cosca.

You're right though, Vincenzo Rimi was the real power. Even American Congressional investigations identified him as major player back in the 1960s.

Here's where I'm ignorant though: If Rimi was not official capomafia, are you saying he could not be regional rappresentante? Letizia Paoli places Rimi in that position. I think I read this in an Italian newspaper article too. I'd have to look through my files though.

Re: New Italian president

by Dwalin2014 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:17 am

jimmyb wrote: Hey, Dwalin2014

Yeah, you know I've read the Arlacchi/Calderone book several times and the Letizia Paoli book, and I still have a difficult time understanding the inner political workings of Cosa Nostra in Sicily. I'm not sure if this is right, but I think Cola Buccellato was capo mandamento for Alcamo, Castellammare, and Calatafimi. This position was separate from the regional rappresentante. The different mandamenti elected the rappresentante. In Trapani, Vincenzo Rimi held the position till his death in 1975. Toto Minore replaced Rimi.

Not sure if that makes sense. Let me know what you think.

"Fazio," I'll have to look that up.
To be honest, I never heard of the theory that Vincenzo Rimi ever was the official rappresentante. I read in several books (for example "Cose di Cosa Nostra" by Giovanni Falcone) that, even though extremely powerful, Rimi never held the official position of boss, not even the local Alcamo boss, and was always formally a soldier, even though de-facto was the power behind the throne of the local mafia (same was said about Calogero Vizzini from VIllalba, don't know how true this is). Buscetta said he didn't know who the official boss of Alcamo was, but I think it could have been Vincenzo's son Filippo.
However, Vincenzo Rimi was indeed extremely powerful, even beyond the Trapani province; I read Salvatore Greco "cicchiteddu", the represenative of Palermo until 1963, considered him a mentor a almost a father figure, and wanted even had him escape from jail, bu Rimi refused and said "he was an innocent convict and had to serve his time". A strange anwer if you ask me, especially about the "innocent" part. I thought it made perfect sense that Vincenzo and Filippo Rimi ordered the murder of Stefano Leale, and later his adopted son also, when he was about to take revenge (the mother, Serafina Battaglia, later testified against them and other mafiosi; there is a documentary, "La vedova della lupara" from the 60s about this story, but I can't find it).

As for Cola Buccellato, maybe he wasn't representative of the whole province for such a long time as 40 years, but he had to be at least for a certain time in the 70s, because he was present at the regional commission meeteing where he voted Provenzano, but Giuseppe Calderone from Catania was elected chairman.

Here is part of the Italian text of a statement by Giuseppe Calderone and the translation I just made:
E cosi' agli inizi del 1975 si
tenne una riunione nella casa di campagna di
Cancelliere Paolino, in territorio di Enna. A quella
riunione parteciparono per Trapani, Buccellato Nicola
e forse il vice rappresentante di cui ignoro il nome;
per Agrigento parteciparono Settecase Giuseppe e il
vice rappresentante Gioacchino Pitruzzella della
famiglia di Favara [...]; per Palermo, Badalamenti
Antonino, in sostituzione del cugino Badalamenti
Gaetano, nonche' Stefano Bontate; per Caltanissetta,
Madonia Francesco e, forse Di Cristina Giuseppe;
per Catania, mio fratello e conti Calogero; per Enna,
oltre a Cancelliere Paolino, Mongiovi' Giovannino,
rappresentante provinciale.
So at the beginning of 1975 a meeting took place in Paolino Cancelliere's country house, in the Enna territory. In that meeting participated: for Trapani, Nicola Buccellato una maybe the underboss I don't know the name of; for Agrigento, Giuseppe Settecase and underboss Giacchino Pitruzzella from the Favara family; for Palermo, Antonino Badalamenti, substituting his cousing Gaetano, and Stefano Bontate; for Caltanissetta, Francesco Madonia, and maybe Giuseppe Di Cristina; for Catania, my brother and Calogero Conti; for Enna, apart from Paolino Cancelliere, also Giovannino Mongiovi', provincial representative.

Re: New Italian president

by jimmyb » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:52 pm

toto wrote:My opinion Riina only did one purge in 1989 against Vincenzo Puccio's rebellion which had a lot of guys with life sentence from Corso dei Mille and Ciaculli family who were jealous of how Riina treated his favorites like Salvatore Montalto. All other murders had other reason behind it like Pino Greco's murder. Riina is blamed for all the murders but most of the guys round him were bloodthirsty and only after they blamed him because of the failed strategies or how his agreement to cancel the life sentences came to nothing. Guys would propose murders to him, I think in his book or some testimony Brusca gives and example about wanting to kill somebody from Trapani in Bagheria and Riina said do it and I will clear it all after even though that is not the way such a murder should be cleared. In my view they are all guilty but the pentiti want to say only Riina. The other bosses made "uncle" the boss of bosses.

It suited some elements of the state to give a green light to Cosa Nostra to kill some politicians or the bombing campaign. These type of actions happen only when Cosa Nostra is confident of nothing happening. In this case Riina was not clever enough to see that whoever he made an agreement with would back out and then turn the state on Cosa Nostra. Now they all complain about how the bombings and killings ruined Cosa Nostra and how they must be on the lam but they all voted for it at the time.

Enemies of corleonesi all said Riina is clever than Provenzano but Cancemi (and he said Raffaele Ganci agreed) Provenzano is cleverer. My guess is in matters internal to Cosa Nostra Riina understood the strategy and was prepared to give orders and make moves like Brusca said but in dealing with the state Provenzano's more cautious approach is considered cleverer.
This is interesting toto, your theory makes a lot of sense. In other words, the so-called purges were really organized from below. This might apply to the killing of Felice Buccellato in 1992. I think Gioacchino Calabro convinced Riina that Buccellato was a threat. But Calabro had a lot to gain by removing Buccellato. So the "purge" was actually instigated from within Castellammare, not a top-down conspiracy by Riina. That's an interesting argument.

But what about the killings in 82-83? A lot of these guys supported the Corleonesi. Are you saying there was yet another layer of subversive mafiosi operating below the initial traitors? This guys are pretty treacherous, so I would not be surprised.

Re: New Italian president

by jimmyb » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:43 pm

Dwalin2014 wrote:
jimmyb wrote:Riina would go through these Stalinist purges and neutralize anyone he thought maintained an independent power unconnected to Corleone. So in CDG during the 90s, he took out Felice Buccellato, Peppino Magaddino, the Evola Brothers, and Ambrogio Farina. I think "Stalinist purge" is the right comparison because I think often times Riina imagined political opposition where there was none.
Yes, Riina was (and still is) just crazy. He is more a terrorist than a mafioso; the only advantage of this was that he wasn't good at talking to politicians, which caused confusions and break-ups in the organization, which helped the law enforcement to seriously harm it; but too many innocent people lost their lives in the process.

By the way, I sometimes read that Toto' Minore was for some time the Trapani province representative, other sources say that Cola Buccellato was representative for more than 40 years and deposed only at the beginning of the 80s when Minore was either already killed or was soon to be killed. So which sources are right? Was the representative always Buccellato or did Minore also cover the position for some time? I also read there was another temporary Trapani representative (and at the same time the regional commission chairman): somebody named Andrea Fazio; he is now even on wikipedia which says his years of power were 1950-1957, but the dates can be fake even though the character seems to be real (at least I read about him in books, don't remember if it was Antonino Calderone who named him).
Hey, Dwalin2014

Yeah, you know I've read the Arlacchi/Calderone book several times and the Letizia Paoli book, and I still have a difficult time understanding the inner political workings of Cosa Nostra in Sicily. I'm not sure if this is right, but I think Cola Buccellato was capo mandamento for Alcamo, Castellammare, and Calatafimi. This position was separate from the regional rappresentante. The different mandamenti elected the rappresentante. In Trapani, Vincenzo Rimi held the position till his death in 1975. Toto Minore replaced Rimi.

Not sure if that makes sense. Let me know what you think.

"Fazio," I'll have to look that up.

Re: New Italian president

by toto » Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:31 am

My opinion Riina only did one purge in 1989 against Vincenzo Puccio's rebellion which had a lot of guys with life sentence from Corso dei Mille and Ciaculli family who were jealous of how Riina treated his favorites like Salvatore Montalto. All other murders had other reason behind it like Pino Greco's murder. Riina is blamed for all the murders but most of the guys round him were bloodthirsty and only after they blamed him because of the failed strategies or how his agreement to cancel the life sentences came to nothing. Guys would propose murders to him, I think in his book or some testimony Brusca gives and example about wanting to kill somebody from Trapani in Bagheria and Riina said do it and I will clear it all after even though that is not the way such a murder should be cleared. In my view they are all guilty but the pentiti want to say only Riina. The other bosses made "uncle" the boss of bosses.

It suited some elements of the state to give a green light to Cosa Nostra to kill some politicians or the bombing campaign. These type of actions happen only when Cosa Nostra is confident of nothing happening. In this case Riina was not clever enough to see that whoever he made an agreement with would back out and then turn the state on Cosa Nostra. Now they all complain about how the bombings and killings ruined Cosa Nostra and how they must be on the lam but they all voted for it at the time.

Enemies of corleonesi all said Riina is clever than Provenzano but Cancemi (and he said Raffaele Ganci agreed) Provenzano is cleverer. My guess is in matters internal to Cosa Nostra Riina understood the strategy and was prepared to give orders and make moves like Brusca said but in dealing with the state Provenzano's more cautious approach is considered cleverer.

Re: New Italian president

by Dwalin2014 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:14 pm

jimmyb wrote:Riina would go through these Stalinist purges and neutralize anyone he thought maintained an independent power unconnected to Corleone. So in CDG during the 90s, he took out Felice Buccellato, Peppino Magaddino, the Evola Brothers, and Ambrogio Farina. I think "Stalinist purge" is the right comparison because I think often times Riina imagined political opposition where there was none.
Yes, Riina was (and still is) just crazy. He is more a terrorist than a mafioso; the only advantage of this was that he wasn't good at talking to politicians, which caused confusions and break-ups in the organization, which helped the law enforcement to seriously harm it; but too many innocent people lost their lives in the process.

By the way, I sometimes read that Toto' Minore was for some time the Trapani province representative, other sources say that Cola Buccellato was representative for more than 40 years and deposed only at the beginning of the 80s when Minore was either already killed or was soon to be killed. So which sources are right? Was the representative always Buccellato or did Minore also cover the position for some time? I also read there was another temporary Trapani representative (and at the same time the regional commission chairman): somebody named Andrea Fazio; he is now even on wikipedia which says his years of power were 1950-1957, but the dates can be fake even though the character seems to be real (at least I read about him in books, don't remember if it was Antonino Calderone who named him).

Re: New Italian president

by Pogo The Clown » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:06 pm

jimmyb wrote:So in CDG during the 90s, he took out Felice Buccellato, Peppino Magaddino, the Evola Brothers

Interesting to see so many familiar names as power players in CDG a century later.


Pogo

Re: New Italian president

by jimmyb » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:53 pm

Riina would go through these Stalinist purges and neutralize anyone he thought maintained an independent power unconnected to Corleone. So in CDG during the 90s, he took out Felice Buccellato, Peppino Magaddino, the Evola Brothers, and Ambrogio Farina. I think "Stalinist purge" is the right comparison because I think often times Riina imagined political opposition where there was none.

Re: New Italian president

by jimmyb » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:47 pm

Dwalin2014 wrote:Jimmy, there is one thing about the Buccellato mafia group from Castellammare I am curious about: in the chronicles of the 80s-90s there were some killings of Buccellato family members committed by Corleonesi, and therefore authorized Riina and Provenzano. But what was the reason for the falling-out? I read Cola Buccellato was the only one who voted for Bernardo Provenzano as candidate for chairman of the regional commission, while everybody else voted for the Catania representative Giuseppe Calderone. Stefano Bontate who was present (probably as Gaetano Badalamenti's deputy, since Badalamenti was the Palermo province representative) said that Provenzano couldn't even be considered as a candidate because he wasn't even a provincial boss, therefore not a member of the regional commission. But Nicola Buccellato said "I vote him anyway".
So if Cola was the Corleonesi inside man in the regional commission, why slaughter his relatives?
Yes this is a great question Dwalin2014. One I'm afraid is too sensitive for me to ask family members about. I asked one and he said "these questions open old wounds," so I got the point.

Anyhow, you're right according to Calderone and other pentiti, Cola Buccellato was one of the earliest members of the pro-Corleone faction. So politically there was split between Cola and Nino---who was close to Bontade and Badalamenti.

It gets more complicated: recall that Riina turned on the first wave of pro-Corleonesi mafiosi. So he ordered execution of Martino (Joe Buccellato from New York's nephew) and Francesco Buccellato (Cola's son). I know Cola was still alive when this happened. He was rather old at the time and probably semi-retired. Either way he had no muscle by that point to stand up to Riina---the biggest Buccellato allies were neutralized (Toto Minore was killed and the Rimi and Badalamenti families were on the run).

As you know, Riina had Cola's other son killed in early 90s. These guys who supported Riina made the ultimate 'deal with the devil.'

Re: New Italian president

by jimmyb » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:30 pm

B. wrote:Yeah, Jimmy, it is great to see you around here. This is Barbarian from the RD.

The Buccellato connection here is definitely interesting.

By the way, are you related to any Buccellato's in California? I met one two years ago when I was visiting LA but didn't want to jump right into the whole mob connection. "Are you related to any of them mafia guys I seen on teevee?"
Lol B, no prob. I'll send you PM and explain the Cali connection. Thanks.

Re: New Italian president

by Dwalin2014 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:52 pm

Jimmy, there is one thing about the Buccellato mafia group from Castellammare I am curious about: in the chronicles of the 80s-90s there were some killings of Buccellato family members committed by Corleonesi, and therefore authorized Riina and Provenzano. But what was the reason for the falling-out? I read Cola Buccellato was the only one who voted for Bernardo Provenzano as candidate for chairman of the regional commission, while everybody else voted for the Catania representative Giuseppe Calderone. Stefano Bontate who was present (probably as Gaetano Badalamenti's deputy, since Badalamenti was the Palermo province representative) said that Provenzano couldn't even be considered as a candidate because he wasn't even a provincial boss, therefore not a member of the regional commission. But Nicola Buccellato said "I vote him anyway".
So if Cola was the Corleonesi inside man in the regional commission, why slaughter his relatives?

Re: New Italian president

by B. » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:11 pm

Yeah, Jimmy, it is great to see you around here. This is Barbarian from the RD.

The Buccellato connection here is definitely interesting.

By the way, are you related to any Buccellato's in California? I met one two years ago when I was visiting LA but didn't want to jump right into the whole mob connection. "Are you related to any of them mafia guys I seen on teevee?"

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