by Villain » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:04 pm
Dwalin2014 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:11 pm
Villain, since the St.Valentine day massacre was mentioned in the earlier posts, in your opinion did Bob Carey actually kill himself after killing his girlfriend or is the theory about Moran killing him as revenge for the 1929 massacre, more plausible? There is a book about Moran by Rose Keefe which mentions the interview with a former North Side bootlegger, E.Barnett, who says Moran told him that he "had gone to the coast (without mentioning which coast) to take care of a guy named Bob Carey"; Barnett didn't ask for details since he didn't know back then who Carey was, but later, after hearing Carey was identified as a likely participant in the St.Valentine day massacre, so theoretically it made sense for Moran to kill him.
By "coast" he probably meant the east coast, since Carey was running away from the Outfit and fled to NY after hearing the news regarding the murder of his buddy Ray Nugent. I'm not saying that its not possible but for Moran to go by himself all the way to NY, find Carey and kill him and his wife in such a professional way that everyone in the end would think its a murder and a suicide...I highly doubt. Who knows, maybe Moran had the ability or skills but this kind of stuff smells more like the Mafia, especially in NY. Even if Moran had done it, he must've been backed up by someone from the Mafia. But as I previously said that I highly doubt since some of Moran's alleged implication in some of the killings came out to be untrue. Like for example the McGurn hit which during the old days it was generally believed that it was Morans revenge but later it was confirmed by Humphreys that it was executed by Maddox and White or in other words by the Outfit.
You see, most of the guys who were the main individuals in the St Valentines job, after that they were absorbed into the Mob, mainly the Cicero crew, obviously on Capones orders. For example, since he was a professional killer, Nugent acted as constant companion and bodyguard for Ralph Capone and followed him everywhere and Carey was often in close contact, or Fred Goetz who controlled some of the rackets in Cicero for Claude Maddox and Willie Heeney, and even Gus Winkler remained as enforcer for the Outfit on the city's North Side. According to my research everyone was killed for a different reason but my personal opinion is that the general or main reason was that Capone, their main protector and sponsor, was no longer at the top. In 1931, when Capone began having problems and became a sensation in Chicago's courts, well that same year Nugent disappeared and was never seen again. Story goes that he became uncontrolable, same story as Goetz who allegedly tried to claim independence and on top.of that, one of his close associates Verne Miller, was accused of helping gun down three policemen and a federal agent in an attempt to free bank robber Frank Nash during the infamous Kansas City Massacre and story goes that Goetz gave informations about the massacre to FBI’s Chicago field office. So in 1933 he was also murdered in a drive-by shooting and later gangster Alvin Karpis gave his opinion that Frank Nitto ordered the murder and Maddox together with Heeney delivered it. Several months later, Winkler was killed in similar fashion.
So I also believe that Carey was killed for some similar reasons but as I previously said that who knows, maybe Moran waited for Carey to loose his guard and complete the job, although I think that if it was double murder, then it was too professional. In plane words, I personally believe that it was one huge clean up
[quote=Dwalin2014 post_id=61441 time=1510603891 user_id=122]
Villain, since the St.Valentine day massacre was mentioned in the earlier posts, in your opinion did Bob Carey actually kill himself after killing his girlfriend or is the theory about Moran killing him as revenge for the 1929 massacre, more plausible? There is a book about Moran by Rose Keefe which mentions the interview with a former North Side bootlegger, E.Barnett, who says Moran told him that he "had gone to the coast (without mentioning which coast) to take care of a guy named Bob Carey"; Barnett didn't ask for details since he didn't know back then who Carey was, but later, after hearing Carey was identified as a likely participant in the St.Valentine day massacre, so theoretically it made sense for Moran to kill him.
[/quote]
By "coast" he probably meant the east coast, since Carey was running away from the Outfit and fled to NY after hearing the news regarding the murder of his buddy Ray Nugent. I'm not saying that its not possible but for Moran to go by himself all the way to NY, find Carey and kill him and his wife in such a professional way that everyone in the end would think its a murder and a suicide...I highly doubt. Who knows, maybe Moran had the ability or skills but this kind of stuff smells more like the Mafia, especially in NY. Even if Moran had done it, he must've been backed up by someone from the Mafia. But as I previously said that I highly doubt since some of Moran's alleged implication in some of the killings came out to be untrue. Like for example the McGurn hit which during the old days it was generally believed that it was Morans revenge but later it was confirmed by Humphreys that it was executed by Maddox and White or in other words by the Outfit.
You see, most of the guys who were the main individuals in the St Valentines job, after that they were absorbed into the Mob, mainly the Cicero crew, obviously on Capones orders. For example, since he was a professional killer, Nugent acted as constant companion and bodyguard for Ralph Capone and followed him everywhere and Carey was often in close contact, or Fred Goetz who controlled some of the rackets in Cicero for Claude Maddox and Willie Heeney, and even Gus Winkler remained as enforcer for the Outfit on the city's North Side. According to my research everyone was killed for a different reason but my personal opinion is that the general or main reason was that Capone, their main protector and sponsor, was no longer at the top. In 1931, when Capone began having problems and became a sensation in Chicago's courts, well that same year Nugent disappeared and was never seen again. Story goes that he became uncontrolable, same story as Goetz who allegedly tried to claim independence and on top.of that, one of his close associates Verne Miller, was accused of helping gun down three policemen and a federal agent in an attempt to free bank robber Frank Nash during the infamous Kansas City Massacre and story goes that Goetz gave informations about the massacre to FBI’s Chicago field office. So in 1933 he was also murdered in a drive-by shooting and later gangster Alvin Karpis gave his opinion that Frank Nitto ordered the murder and Maddox together with Heeney delivered it. Several months later, Winkler was killed in similar fashion.
So I also believe that Carey was killed for some similar reasons but as I previously said that who knows, maybe Moran waited for Carey to loose his guard and complete the job, although I think that if it was double murder, then it was too professional. In plane words, I personally believe that it was one huge clean up