THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Snakes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:25 am

Confederate wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:51 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:49 am

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:17 pm The Chicago Outfit was an American model. The men who came after Capone (and thus were entrusted with making this new set up run) had an Italo-American background. Most grew up in Chicago or New York and then relocated. To be part of the Mafia network post '31 you needed to have comparable ranks: boss, under, consig, capo. And while we have names to fit the bill for each rank, it's still cluttered in confusion. Was Giancana the boss or was Paul Ricca the hidden super boss?

The Mafia was afraid of Capone because he got too big and the problem was that he brought many non-Italians who were also aware of their "secret" syndicate but in the end it seems everybody looked the other way and brought him into the brotherhood obviously because of additional power. The ones who kept Capone close to them, also had the second largest city in their back pocket. Thats why I believe that Capones real successor was Ricca since he wasnt born in the states but instead he already immigrated with blood on his hands and knowledge regarding secret criminal organizations. He was the main contact until the day he died. Genovese member Eboli once reffered to him the same as he was reffering to Vito. As for the rest, meaning Giancana Accardo Battaglia etc they were chief executives and were also totally Americanized. Dont get me wrong guys like Campagna or D'Andrea mightve been also born in the US but the difference was that they talked in Italian most of the time. You see, after Capone, the Outfit was controlled by a board of directors with a chairman at the top and capos beneath them, for example some of those guys were Nitti, D'Andrea and Campagna and also non italian guys such as Guzik Hunt or Humphreys. For better explanation, D'Andrea was the president of the Italian organization previously known as Unione Siciliani and also was the boss of the Loop and South side and the First Ward. So his guys over there were Roti and also Belcastro, who later transfered on Taylor St. and they were backed up by Hunt and Guzik. When D'Andrea died, his operations and territory was divided between Ferraro and Roti. Ferraro took the First Ward, the Loop and the underboss position, as for Roti he took over Chinatown and the whole South Side. So again this is a proof that after Capone, the so-called board of directors controlled larger territories and operations, similar in the way of the five fams in NY, with members under their rule who later were made into Capos and divided those same areas. The same thing was with Nitti, meaning I believe that one time he was the boss of the Near North Side and also the whole North with Fischetti DeGeorge and Carozzo beneath him. Same thing was with Campagna who ruled the Cicero area through Ralph Capone Heeney and Maddox and later with Giancana and I alsoo believe that Campagna even held the underboss position which was later inherited again by Giancana.

Chicago is definitely more convoluted in following what happened than the other regular American Mafia Cites. LOL
However, Villian, you did shine some light on a very confusing scenario............
So, Chicago then WAS structured very similar to New York with a Board of Directors (Administration) Territory Bosses (Capos) and made guys (Soldiers) who had workers under them. They just CALLED them by different NAMES.
If what I said is BASICALLY correct, then THANK YOU very much.

I got to say the Researchers and FBI Document guys on this Site are excellent!
Guys like "Christie", "Antiliar"," Villian"," Pogo"," Wiseguy", "JCB", and even old bleeding heart Liberal "Snakes". Way better than any book I ever read.

Although they haven't posted much in here, JD, B, and Hairy Knuckles also deserve praise (probably more so than myself) for their tireless research efforts.

Confederate wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:51 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:49 am

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:17 pm The Chicago Outfit was an American model. The men who came after Capone (and thus were entrusted with making this new set up run) had an Italo-American background. Most grew up in Chicago or New York and then relocated. To be part of the Mafia network post '31 you needed to have comparable ranks: boss, under, consig, capo. And while we have names to fit the bill for each rank, it's still cluttered in confusion. Was Giancana the boss or was Paul Ricca the hidden super boss?

The Mafia was afraid of Capone because he got too big and the problem was that he brought many non-Italians who were also aware of their "secret" syndicate but in the end it seems everybody looked the other way and brought him into the brotherhood obviously because of additional power. The ones who kept Capone close to them, also had the second largest city in their back pocket. Thats why I believe that Capones real successor was Ricca since he wasnt born in the states but instead he already immigrated with blood on his hands and knowledge regarding secret criminal organizations. He was the main contact until the day he died. Genovese member Eboli once reffered to him the same as he was reffering to Vito. As for the rest, meaning Giancana Accardo Battaglia etc they were chief executives and were also totally Americanized. Dont get me wrong guys like Campagna or D'Andrea mightve been also born in the US but the difference was that they talked in Italian most of the time. You see, after Capone, the Outfit was controlled by a board of directors with a chairman at the top and capos beneath them, for example some of those guys were Nitti, D'Andrea and Campagna and also non italian guys such as Guzik Hunt or Humphreys. For better explanation, D'Andrea was the president of the Italian organization previously known as Unione Siciliani and also was the boss of the Loop and South side and the First Ward. So his guys over there were Roti and also Belcastro, who later transfered on Taylor St. and they were backed up by Hunt and Guzik. When D'Andrea died, his operations and territory was divided between Ferraro and Roti. Ferraro took the First Ward, the Loop and the underboss position, as for Roti he took over Chinatown and the whole South Side. So again this is a proof that after Capone, the so-called board of directors controlled larger territories and operations, similar in the way of the five fams in NY, with members under their rule who later were made into Capos and divided those same areas. The same thing was with Nitti, meaning I believe that one time he was the boss of the Near North Side and also the whole North with Fischetti DeGeorge and Carozzo beneath him. Same thing was with Campagna who ruled the Cicero area through Ralph Capone Heeney and Maddox and later with Giancana and I alsoo believe that Campagna even held the underboss position which was later inherited again by Giancana.

Chicago is definitely more convoluted in following what happened than the other regular American Mafia Cites. LOL
However, Villian, you did shine some light on a very confusing scenario............
So, Chicago then WAS structured very similar to New York with a Board of Directors (Administration) Territory Bosses (Capos) and made guys (Soldiers) who had workers under them. They just CALLED them by different NAMES.
If what I said is BASICALLY correct, then THANK YOU very much.

I got to say the Researchers and FBI Document guys on this Site are excellent!
Guys like "Christie", "Antiliar"," Villian"," Pogo"," Wiseguy", "JCB", and even old bleeding heart Liberal "Snakes". Way better than any book I ever read.

Confederate wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:51 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:49 am

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:17 pm The Chicago Outfit was an American model. The men who came after Capone (and thus were entrusted with making this new set up run) had an Italo-American background. Most grew up in Chicago or New York and then relocated. To be part of the Mafia network post '31 you needed to have comparable ranks: boss, under, consig, capo. And while we have names to fit the bill for each rank, it's still cluttered in confusion. Was Giancana the boss or was Paul Ricca the hidden super boss?

The Mafia was afraid of Capone because he got too big and the problem was that he brought many non-Italians who were also aware of their "secret" syndicate but in the end it seems everybody looked the other way and brought him into the brotherhood obviously because of additional power. The ones who kept Capone close to them, also had the second largest city in their back pocket. Thats why I believe that Capones real successor was Ricca since he wasnt born in the states but instead he already immigrated with blood on his hands and knowledge regarding secret criminal organizations. He was the main contact until the day he died. Genovese member Eboli once reffered to him the same as he was reffering to Vito. As for the rest, meaning Giancana Accardo Battaglia etc they were chief executives and were also totally Americanized. Dont get me wrong guys like Campagna or D'Andrea mightve been also born in the US but the difference was that they talked in Italian most of the time. You see, after Capone, the Outfit was controlled by a board of directors with a chairman at the top and capos beneath them, for example some of those guys were Nitti, D'Andrea and Campagna and also non italian guys such as Guzik Hunt or Humphreys. For better explanation, D'Andrea was the president of the Italian organization previously known as Unione Siciliani and also was the boss of the Loop and South side and the First Ward. So his guys over there were Roti and also Belcastro, who later transfered on Taylor St. and they were backed up by Hunt and Guzik. When D'Andrea died, his operations and territory was divided between Ferraro and Roti. Ferraro took the First Ward, the Loop and the underboss position, as for Roti he took over Chinatown and the whole South Side. So again this is a proof that after Capone, the so-called board of directors controlled larger territories and operations, similar in the way of the five fams in NY, with members under their rule who later were made into Capos and divided those same areas. The same thing was with Nitti, meaning I believe that one time he was the boss of the Near North Side and also the whole North with Fischetti DeGeorge and Carozzo beneath him. Same thing was with Campagna who ruled the Cicero area through Ralph Capone Heeney and Maddox and later with Giancana and I alsoo believe that Campagna even held the underboss position which was later inherited again by Giancana.

Chicago is definitely more convoluted in following what happened than the other regular American Mafia Cites. LOL
However, Villian, you did shine some light on a very confusing scenario............
So, Chicago then WAS structured very similar to New York with a Board of Directors (Administration) Territory Bosses (Capos) and made guys (Soldiers) who had workers under them. They just CALLED them by different NAMES.
If what I said is BASICALLY correct, then THANK YOU very much.

Villain wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:49 am

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:17 pm The Chicago Outfit was an American model. The men who came after Capone (and thus were entrusted with making this new set up run) had an Italo-American background. Most grew up in Chicago or New York and then relocated. To be part of the Mafia network post '31 you needed to have comparable ranks: boss, under, consig, capo. And while we have names to fit the bill for each rank, it's still cluttered in confusion. Was Giancana the boss or was Paul Ricca the hidden super boss?

The Mafia was afraid of Capone because he got too big and the problem was that he brought many non-Italians who were also aware of their "secret" syndicate but in the end it seems everybody looked the other way and brought him into the brotherhood obviously because of additional power. The ones who kept Capone close to them, also had the second largest city in their back pocket. Thats why I believe that Capones real successor was Ricca since he wasnt born in the states but instead he already immigrated with blood on his hands and knowledge regarding secret criminal organizations. He was the main contact until the day he died. Genovese member Eboli once reffered to him the same as he was reffering to Vito. As for the rest, meaning Giancana Accardo Battaglia etc they were chief executives and were also totally Americanized. Dont get me wrong guys like Campagna or D'Andrea mightve been also born in the US but the difference was that they talked in Italian most of the time. You see, after Capone, the Outfit was controlled by a board of directors with a chairman at the top and capos beneath them, for example some of those guys were Nitti, D'Andrea and Campagna and also non italian guys such as Guzik Hunt or Humphreys. For better explanation, D'Andrea was the president of the Italian organization previously known as Unione Siciliani and also was the boss of the Loop and South side and the First Ward. So his guys over there were Roti and also Belcastro, who later transfered on Taylor St. and they were backed up by Hunt and Guzik. When D'Andrea died, his operations and territory was divided between Ferraro and Roti. Ferraro took the First Ward, the Loop and the underboss position, as for Roti he took over Chinatown and the whole South Side. So again this is a proof that after Capone, the so-called board of directors controlled larger territories and operations, similar in the way of the five fams in NY, with members under their rule who later were made into Capos and divided those same areas. The same thing was with Nitti, meaning I believe that one time he was the boss of the Near North Side and also the whole North with Fischetti DeGeorge and Carozzo beneath him. Same thing was with Campagna who ruled the Cicero area through Ralph Capone Heeney and Maddox and later with Giancana and I alsoo believe that Campagna even held the underboss position which was later inherited again by Giancana.

Antiliar wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:08 am

Villain wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:17 am According to one old article, during the early 1900s Mont Tennes Chicago's gamling lord from the North Side, was allegedly associated with another gambling faction from the West Side which included alderman John Rogers, prostitution boss Mike Heitler and one John Gazzola or Gazzolo. I cant find anything regarding Gazzolos operations except for being a poltical boss or just one time candidate and alleged gambler but it is possible that he was related to one Andrew Gazzolo, also from the West Side, who in 1895 killed his brother in law and walked away free, and there was also Frank Gazzolo previous candidate for the 11th ward but later certified alderman of the 18th ward whos father was a saloon owner. And they were possibly related ťo one younger Joe Gazzolo from Brooklyn NY who was murdered in 1931. This guy was allegedly involved in Harlems numbers racket which might give us the answer on Chicagos John Gazzolo operations since at the beginning of the century there was this so called gambling pact between various racketeers in Chicago including Tennes, O'Leary and also many African American gamblers such as Sam Young and Mushmouth Johnson with ties to Harlem and around the country and also Italians such as Gazzolo. So this guy might've been one of the earliest big time Italian racketeers on the West Side with huge political power and also gambling connections or operations mainly around West Madison Street. Also the Tennes connection at the time might explain the gambling operations extension to the North Side for Heitler and possibly the Italians from his area, which also might explain the North Side/Grand Avenue connection that continued years later.

EDIT: Maybe Antiliar knows more than me regarding all these alleged blood relations since i might be wrong

The Chicago Gazzolos were from Genoa, which was neither a stronghold of the Mafia nor the Camorra. Even if there was a link to the Brooklyn Gazzolo, I doubt it would mean anything.

Villain wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:17 am According to one old article, during the early 1900s Mont Tennes Chicago's gamling lord from the North Side, was allegedly associated with another gambling faction from the West Side which included alderman John Rogers, prostitution boss Mike Heitler and one John Gazzola or Gazzolo. I cant find anything regarding Gazzolos operations except for being a poltical boss or just one time candidate and alleged gambler but it is possible that he was related to one Andrew Gazzolo, also from the West Side, who in 1895 killed his brother in law and walked away free, and there was also Frank Gazzolo previous candidate for the 11th ward but later certified alderman of the 18th ward whos father was a saloon owner. And they were possibly related ťo one younger Joe Gazzolo from Brooklyn NY who was murdered in 1931. This guy was allegedly involved in Harlems numbers racket which might give us the answer on Chicagos John Gazzolo operations since at the beginning of the century there was this so called gambling pact between various racketeers in Chicago including Tennes, O'Leary and also many African American gamblers such as Sam Young and Mushmouth Johnson with ties to Harlem and around the country and also Italians such as Gazzolo. So this guy might've been one of the earliest big time Italian racketeers on the West Side with huge political power and also gambling connections or operations mainly around West Madison Street. Also the Tennes connection at the time might explain the gambling operations extension to the North Side for Heitler and possibly the Italians from his area, which also might explain the North Side/Grand Avenue connection that continued years later.

EDIT: Maybe Antiliar knows more than me regarding all these alleged blood relations since i might be wrong

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:17 pm The Chicago Outfit was an American model. The men who came after Capone (and thus were entrusted with making this new set up run) had an Italo-American background. Most grew up in Chicago or New York and then relocated. To be part of the Mafia network post '31 you needed to have comparable ranks: boss, under, consig, capo. And while we have names to fit the bill for each rank, it's still cluttered in confusion. Was Giancana the boss or was Paul Ricca the hidden super boss?

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:34 am

Villain wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:28 am

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:06 am

Villain wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:09 amNot in Chicago

Chicago too via the North Side as well as Chicago Heights before 1930. But the Outfit post 1930's after the merger is a different scenario. Chicago much like the Genoveses represent the most heterogeneous of Crime Families as opposed to the far more conservative Elizabeth or Bonanno Families (pre-1970).

Capone's takeover as boss couldn't have occurred politically without the blessing of NY forces. Had Capone acted on his own out of the blue and killed the Chicago leaders he and his group would have been ostracized and perhaps may have even had to deal with hit teams sent their way. Instead, Capone went about it the right way and got Masseria's sanction. It was one of the arguing points Maranzano levied against him. After he got the sanction and became Chicago Representative for the American Mafia, he was free to do whatever (within reason). But he wasn't at the helm of the Mafia for very long and I feel his successors Paul Ricca and Frank Nitti deserve a great deal of credit for making the Outfit what it was. And since they weren't from a western Sicilian Mafia background you don't see those traits surfacing as much as you do in NY.

You got the history right but what i meant to say was that Chicago might've been one of those cities where many alleged Mafiosi before Prohibition did not get along much.

Btw there was also Sicilian mob around Taylor St until the late 20's i think and also around Grand Avenue which lasted much longer

Really? From what I seen the various groups moved in the same circles and were allies for longer than they were not. Before Capone went to war he was amicable with them. Same with Chicago Heights, you have photos of the two rival groups together. In fact I'd say their disputes were a result of prohibition rather than preceding it.

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:34 am Before Capone went to war he was amicable with them.

Villain wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:28 am

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:06 am

Villain wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:09 amNot in Chicago

Chicago too via the North Side as well as Chicago Heights before 1930. But the Outfit post 1930's after the merger is a different scenario. Chicago much like the Genoveses represent the most heterogeneous of Crime Families as opposed to the far more conservative Elizabeth or Bonanno Families (pre-1970).

Capone's takeover as boss couldn't have occurred politically without the blessing of NY forces. Had Capone acted on his own out of the blue and killed the Chicago leaders he and his group would have been ostracized and perhaps may have even had to deal with hit teams sent their way. Instead, Capone went about it the right way and got Masseria's sanction. It was one of the arguing points Maranzano levied against him. After he got the sanction and became Chicago Representative for the American Mafia, he was free to do whatever (within reason). But he wasn't at the helm of the Mafia for very long and I feel his successors Paul Ricca and Frank Nitti deserve a great deal of credit for making the Outfit what it was. And since they weren't from a western Sicilian Mafia background you don't see those traits surfacing as much as you do in NY.

You got the history right but what i meant to say was that Chicago might've been one of those cities where many alleged Mafiosi before Prohibition did not get along much.

Btw there was also Sicilian mob around Taylor St until the late 20's i think and also around Grand Avenue which lasted much longer