Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

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Expand view Topic review: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by frankiep » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:47 pm

My cousins and I play Morra which is fingers everytime we get together. It gets loud very loud.

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by Rocco » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:25 am

of the list to get made. 90 % of them went to prison or flipped later on.. Shitty career move for a white guy...

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by Cheech » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:04 am

They played in bronx tale when they were in front of the aces wild.

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by SonnyBlackstein » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:19 pm

Thanks B.

Very interesting thread regards a 'compare'. For those who havent read that thread, highly recommend.

Interesting point about Maniaci not having heard of it. Does obscure the origin if not Sicilian.

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by B. » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:45 pm

JD wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:10 am
B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:01 am Also, about the finger game at the induction ceremony -- the other examples of this I know of are Valachi, as mentioned, and Rocco Scafidi's Philadelphia induction in 1950. So that is three inductions taking place in 1930, 1950, and 2003 among three different families.
The Colombo example was from 1987 when Carmine Sessa was made, not the 2003 ceremony discussed in the main post. Interesting to see it turn up in Philly as well. Aside from Valachi and now Sessa, can't think of any other mention in New York despite so many other cooperators.
Ah yeah, 1987. Thanks.

Sonny -- there is an old Italian game called morra that involves the participants throwing out a random number of fingers and someone has to guess the total amount, something like that. As with any game like that it can involve gambling.

Augie Maniaci of Milwaukee, which up to that point had been a very traditional Sicilian family, was asked by the FBI if he had heard of the finger counting in making ceremonies and he said he was not familiar.

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by SonnyBlackstein » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:59 pm

Is the game a common part of Sicilian culture? IE do children play a form of it etc. Or is it exclusively a Mafia tradition?

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by LcnBios » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:10 am

B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:01 am Also, about the finger game at the induction ceremony -- the other examples of this I know of are Valachi, as mentioned, and Rocco Scafidi's Philadelphia induction in 1950. So that is three inductions taking place in 1930, 1950, and 2003 among three different families.
The Colombo example was from 1987 when Carmine Sessa was made, not the 2003 ceremony discussed in the main post. Interesting to see it turn up in Philly as well. Aside from Valachi and now Sessa, can't think of any other mention in New York despite so many other cooperators.

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by B. » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:01 am

Thanks, Pogo.

Also, about the finger game at the induction ceremony -- the other examples of this I know of are Valachi, as mentioned, and Rocco Scafidi's Philadelphia induction in 1950. So that is three inductions taking place in 1930, 1950, and 2003 among three different families. However, we know of many other ceremonies, including the same three families, where it either didn't happen or the informant/witness didn't mention it.

However, my understanding of the Valachi and Scafidi ceremonies is that the finger game was not used to determine the captain, but to determine the member's "compare" or godfather. Valachi and Joe Bonanno didn't stay connected for obvious reasons and Valachi didn't elaborate on what this role meant, if he even knew, but in Scafidi's case the information makes it pretty clear the compare is someone the soldier can go to for advice, help, etc. In Scafidi's case, this was Dominic Pollina and an informant (Scafidi) talks about how Scafidi went to Pollina for financial help at one point.

So if the Colombos used it to determine the captain, that might be a bit different. When you look at some of the crew charts for the Colombos, especially from the older eras that JD has posted, some of the members do seem like they're in random crews, but not everyone. I wonder if the randomness of these crew assignments could be a result of them using the number game. With how much the Colombos moved guys around to different crews through pretty much all eras we know about, it seems that even if a guy is inducted into a random crew they have no problem moving him where they see fit. Another reason the Colombos may have been doing it this way is to prevent cliques from forming due to the decades of factionalism and wars. It helps that most Colombo crews have always been based in a small radius.

I made a topic about this "compare" thing a while back:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=914&p=13506&hilit=compare#p13506

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by Stroccos » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:04 am

JD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:18 pm Another thing on induction ceremonies. Valachi mentioned the use of a finger game as a way to determine who the new member would be with. This method was used again over fifty years later in the Colombo Family when Carmine Sessa was made (March 1987). That's how he ended up as a member of Vic Orena's crew despite being a Scarpa guy since at least the early 1970s.
Sounds like they were playing mora

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by Pogo The Clown » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:42 am

B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:29 pm What total member count do you have for them in the late 90s before they were allowed to induct members again? They must have been at one of the thinnest points in their history between the guys who flipped, died naturally, were murdered, plus all of the members in prison.

I did a rough count and ended up with 101-105 or so. At least 25 of them were in prison. At least that many were shelved or inactive (probably a lot more). So yeah they were pretty decimated. Though I must say in terms of total members they were smaller by the early 2010s. Despite the books opening up again they lost about 50 members due to deaths and defections during that period.


Pogo

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by Villain » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:10 am

HairyKnuckles wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:32 am
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:32 pm
JD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:18 pm Another thing on induction ceremonies. Valachi mentioned the use of a finger game as a way to determine who the new member would be with. This method was used again over fifty years later in the Colombo Family when Carmine Sessa was made (March 1987). That's how he ended up as a member of Vic Orena's crew despite being a Scarpa guy since at least the early 1970s.
Sounds somewhat like that counting method the Patriarca family used. Strange ways to decide which crew a guy will go with.
Strange indeed. I can understand if it is used to determine which captain the inductee would be under. But what if a captain ends up without any soldiers even after numerous ceremonies? And what if a captain rejects the soldier? This number game doesn´t make any sense to me unless the inductee perhaps has no sponsor.
First time hearing about this, thanks guys...btw good questions HK

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by HairyKnuckles » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:32 am

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:32 pm
JD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:18 pm Another thing on induction ceremonies. Valachi mentioned the use of a finger game as a way to determine who the new member would be with. This method was used again over fifty years later in the Colombo Family when Carmine Sessa was made (March 1987). That's how he ended up as a member of Vic Orena's crew despite being a Scarpa guy since at least the early 1970s.
Sounds somewhat like that counting method the Patriarca family used. Strange ways to decide which crew a guy will go with.
Strange indeed. I can understand if it is used to determine which captain the inductee would be under. But what if a captain ends up without any soldiers even after numerous ceremonies? And what if a captain rejects the soldier? This number game doesn´t make any sense to me unless the inductee perhaps has no sponsor.

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by B. » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:29 pm

What total member count do you have for them in the late 90s before they were allowed to induct members again? They must have been at one of the thinnest points in their history between the guys who flipped, died naturally, were murdered, plus all of the members in prison.

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by Wiseguy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:32 pm

JD wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:18 pm Another thing on induction ceremonies. Valachi mentioned the use of a finger game as a way to determine who the new member would be with. This method was used again over fifty years later in the Colombo Family when Carmine Sessa was made (March 1987). That's how he ended up as a member of Vic Orena's crew despite being a Scarpa guy since at least the early 1970s.
Sounds somewhat like that counting method the Patriarca family used. Strange ways to decide which crew a guy will go with.

Re: Info re Colombo Induction List (2003)

by B. » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:17 pm

Thanks for clarifying about Lombardino. I had just found his obituary from 2015 not that long ago so the list confused me. Makes more sense if it was Paul Lombardino who I would guess few active NYC members knew much about.

Maybe it's because I know he was recording the conversation, but Tartaglione's voice sounds like a guy who knows he was talking on a recording. Adding audio on here is next level.

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