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Re: Front bosses

by AlexfromSouth » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:00 am

One would think that the Gambino's had any say in this. '81 year was the strongest for Paul I think.

Re: Front bosses

by AlexfromSouth » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:59 am

This was all in the mist of '80, '81. Where was Castellano at the time of all this? Even Tony Ducks?

Re: Front bosses

by OlBlueEyesClub » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:30 am

Leonetti doesn't say once in Mafia Prince that Gigante ordered Scarfo to kill Narducci & Marinucci, the closest thing to that is when Nicky is quoted as saying "If it were up to me I'd kill Casella, Narducci, the Marinucci kid, but it's not up to me, its up to this guy..", then he does the Chin motion, however that was prior to them even going to the NY meet with Casella, when it gets to the chapter of Narducci's death, Leonetti again, doesn't say that Gigante ordered Scarfo to kill those involved in the Testa hit. What he does say is that "only NY can choose who the new boss was, and my uncle was the only guy NY would talk to", which goes back to what I said on about the Commission and Scarfos relationship with Bobby Manna. Yet doesn't the whole "NY chooses the boss" thing apply to every family that falls under the Commission, I mean thats always what we've been led to believe, yet the Genovese doesn't call the shots for all these families either. And Leonetti says multiple times in the book that the Chin headed the Commission, which is why they always met with him, and the Genovese. Again The Commission made the decisions, The Genovese were the point men, imo. And that new Chin book is trash, but thats irrelevant to this discussion.


To Wiseguy, just to clarify, I think we both agree that NY had great influence within the Philly LCN. We just disagree with whether it was so much the Commission as a whole, or just the Genovese as the sole family with influence. We certainly won't convince each other even with best of our efforts, but I can agree to disagree in this case.

Re: Front bosses

by Wiseguy » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:24 pm

OlBlueEyesClub wrote:The Commission, Caponigro thought he had permission from the commission not the Genovese Caponigro went to the Commission for legitimacy. As earlier said, the Genovese were simply the pointmen. During Scarfo's reign, the Gambinos also dealt with the Philly family closely, just like they did with Bruno. Which proves in itself, The Genovese didn't exactly make all the decisions for Philly, Scarfo did. It was Sammy Gravano that killed Johnny Keys Simone at the behest of Scarfo, because he was plotting with the Gambinos to take over, and the Gambinos bullshitted him all the way. I'd say Bobby Manna and his relationship with Scarfo, played more of a part in Philly LCN goings on, than the Genovese family as a whole. Again, through his relationship with Manna, Scarfo manipulated his way to the boss seat, sort of. Again, Scarfo didn't go to NY to get permission for ANY of the guys he killed. Not even Frank Narducci & Rocco Marinucci after the Testa bombing. I think Casella went to NY because he like Scarfo, already had a relationship with NY mafiosi, specifically Genovese members.


During Bruno's reign, Gyp De Carlo had issues with Tony Caponigro over crap and monte games opened up in each others territory. Gyp couldn't kill Bananas because he was from another family, and in his own words "they had nothing to do with them".The Genovese simply weren't the fronts for Philly. And outside of certain instances, they didn't call the shots.
You need to go back and read the Leonetti book again. Or any number of articles on the Genovese involvement in Philadelphia. Leonetti testified that Gigante ordered Scarfo to kill all those involved in the Testa murder. Manna's relationship with Scarfo certainly set the groundwork for the Genovese wanting him to take over in Philadelphia but it was several leaders of the Genovese family that were involved in the Bruno plot. And they did it for reasons Leonetti outlined, including influence with the Philly family. The recent book on Chin talks a lot about this as well.

Re: Front bosses

by OlBlueEyesClub » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:00 pm

The Commission, Caponigro thought he had permission from the commission not the Genovese Caponigro went to the Commission for legitimacy. As earlier said, the Genovese were simply the pointmen. During Scarfo's reign, the Gambinos also dealt with the Philly family closely, just like they did with Bruno. Which proves in itself, The Genovese didn't exactly make all the decisions for Philly, Scarfo did. It was Sammy Gravano that killed Johnny Keys Simone at the behest of Scarfo, because he was plotting with the Gambinos to take over, and the Gambinos bullshitted him all the way. I'd say Bobby Manna and his relationship with Scarfo, played more of a part in Philly LCN goings on, than the Genovese family as a whole. Again, through his relationship with Manna, Scarfo manipulated his way to the boss seat, sort of. Again, Scarfo didn't go to NY to get permission for ANY of the guys he killed. Not even Frank Narducci & Rocco Marinucci after the Testa bombing. I think Casella went to NY because he like Scarfo, already had a relationship with NY mafiosi, specifically Genovese members.


During Bruno's reign, Gyp De Carlo had issues with Tony Caponigro over crap and monte games opened up in each others territory. Gyp couldn't kill Bananas because he was from another family, and in his own words "they had nothing to do with them".The Genovese simply weren't the fronts for Philly. And outside of certain instances, they didn't call the shots.

Re: Front bosses

by Pete » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:39 pm

Wiseguy wrote:
Pogo The Clown wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:First, it got to a point where the Genovese family was dictating things to Philly. They banished one Philly guy to Florida. They made Scarfo the boss after Testa's murder and told Scarfo to take care of the conspirators. Leonetti said himself in his book it was New York who had the final say.

That was more the Commission dictating things. The Genovese were just the point men.


Pogo
True, it was ultimately by authority of the Commission but after the decision to have Caponigro killed, it seems it was the Genovese who Philadelphia was dealing with. Sure, the Genovese were more than eager to be point on all of it, so as to conceal their plot that set it all in motion, but when you read Leonetti's account, it was only them that Scarfo was meeting with. The other families were on the Commission obviously but they seem to be out of the picture by that point. The Gambinos were the only other family that would have really mattered anyway. And we need to remember one of the motives for the Genovese was installing a boss in Philadelphia loyal to them and not the Gambinos.
OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Exactly. And on what exact page did Leonetti say NY had the final say? Not saying he didn't I just don't recall reading that, I'm just asking because it's very possible I skipped over it or it's just slipping my brain right now. And they banished Casella, because he'd had a prior connection going way back into like the 50's with an unnamed Genovese capo, according to Leonetti. I did some searching a while ago trying to figure out if I could possibly find the identity of this unnamed capo, and saw that Casella was indicted for drug trafficking with a few Philly guys, and some guys out NY, some by the way of Greenwich Village, but I couldn't find any name I recognized, so I let that little project die a silent death.

And according to Leonetti, it was Scarfo who basically made Phil Testa step up as boss when he told him after the death of Bruno, "Let New York get to the bottom of this plot and figure out what they're gonna do about it, but in the meantime you step up. You were the underboss and you become acting boss, and we sit back and wait for New York." This was before Gigante supposedly told him and Scarfo that the commission decided Testa would be boss and Scarfo would be his underboss or consigliere. So basically, Testa was already installed as boss by the powers of Philly, they were simply hoping and waiting for the Genovese to back them, which they ultimately did.
I don't recall the page and don't have the book at hand but it's in there. It's why Caponigro went to them for legitimacy, as did Scarfo did later on. Back then, Philadelphia could have chosen whoever but without NY approval, it wouldn't have mattered.
Also in the book it talks about testa getting killed and both Casella and scarfo went to ny to see who would be named boss. I believe it was gigante who after dealing with casella said well nick i don't see anyone else here so I guess that makes you the new boss or something to that effect. in one of leonettis tv specials he talks about how it didn't matter what anyone said ny chooses the boss and that's obviously what played out after both Bruno and testa were killed.

Re: Front bosses

by Wiseguy » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:52 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:First, it got to a point where the Genovese family was dictating things to Philly. They banished one Philly guy to Florida. They made Scarfo the boss after Testa's murder and told Scarfo to take care of the conspirators. Leonetti said himself in his book it was New York who had the final say.

That was more the Commission dictating things. The Genovese were just the point men.


Pogo
True, it was ultimately by authority of the Commission but after the decision to have Caponigro killed, it seems it was the Genovese who Philadelphia was dealing with. Sure, the Genovese were more than eager to be point on all of it, so as to conceal their plot that set it all in motion, but when you read Leonetti's account, it was only them that Scarfo was meeting with. The other families were on the Commission obviously but they seem to be out of the picture by that point. The Gambinos were the only other family that would have really mattered anyway. And we need to remember one of the motives for the Genovese was installing a boss in Philadelphia loyal to them and not the Gambinos.
OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Exactly. And on what exact page did Leonetti say NY had the final say? Not saying he didn't I just don't recall reading that, I'm just asking because it's very possible I skipped over it or it's just slipping my brain right now. And they banished Casella, because he'd had a prior connection going way back into like the 50's with an unnamed Genovese capo, according to Leonetti. I did some searching a while ago trying to figure out if I could possibly find the identity of this unnamed capo, and saw that Casella was indicted for drug trafficking with a few Philly guys, and some guys out NY, some by the way of Greenwich Village, but I couldn't find any name I recognized, so I let that little project die a silent death.

And according to Leonetti, it was Scarfo who basically made Phil Testa step up as boss when he told him after the death of Bruno, "Let New York get to the bottom of this plot and figure out what they're gonna do about it, but in the meantime you step up. You were the underboss and you become acting boss, and we sit back and wait for New York." This was before Gigante supposedly told him and Scarfo that the commission decided Testa would be boss and Scarfo would be his underboss or consigliere. So basically, Testa was already installed as boss by the powers of Philly, they were simply hoping and waiting for the Genovese to back them, which they ultimately did.
I don't recall the page and don't have the book at hand but it's in there. It's why Caponigro went to them for legitimacy, as did Scarfo did later on. Back then, Philadelphia could have chosen whoever but without NY approval, it wouldn't have mattered.

Re: Front bosses

by OlBlueEyesClub » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:32 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote:
Wiseguy wrote:First, it got to a point where the Genovese family was dictating things to Philly. They banished one Philly guy to Florida. They made Scarfo the boss after Testa's murder and told Scarfo to take care of the conspirators. Leonetti said himself in his book it was New York who had the final say.

That was more the Commission dictating things. The Genovese were just the point men.


Pogo

Exactly. And on what exact page did Leonetti say NY had the final say? Not saying he didn't I just don't recall reading that, I'm just asking because it's very possible I skipped over it or it's just slipping my brain right now. And they banished Casella, because he'd had a prior connection going way back into like the 50's with an unnamed Genovese capo, according to Leonetti. I did some searching a while ago trying to figure out if I could possibly find the identity of this unnamed capo, and saw that Casella was indicted for drug trafficking with a few Philly guys, and some guys out NY, some by the way of Greenwich Village, but I couldn't find any name I recognized, so I let that little project die a silent death.

And according to Leonetti, it was Scarfo who basically made Phil Testa step up as boss when he told him after the death of Bruno, "Let New York get to the bottom of this plot and figure out what they're gonna do about it, but in the meantime you step up. You were the underboss and you become acting boss, and we sit back and wait for New York." This was before Gigante supposedly told him and Scarfo that the commission decided Testa would be boss and Scarfo would be his underboss or consigliere. So basically, Testa was already installed as boss by the powers of Philly, they were simply hoping and waiting for the Genovese to back them, which they ultimately did.

Re: Front bosses

by Pogo The Clown » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:31 pm

Wiseguy wrote:First, it got to a point where the Genovese family was dictating things to Philly. They banished one Philly guy to Florida. They made Scarfo the boss after Testa's murder and told Scarfo to take care of the conspirators. Leonetti said himself in his book it was New York who had the final say.

That was more the Commission dictating things. The Genovese were just the point men.


Pogo

Re: Front bosses

by Wiseguy » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:10 pm

I'm a little late reading this thread.

First, it got to a point where the Genovese family was dictating things to Philly. They banished one Philly guy to Florida. They made Scarfo the boss after Testa's murder and told Scarfo to take care of the conspirators. Leonetti said himself in his book it was New York who had the final say.

Second, I don't know if I'm reading some of the above posts right, but I sure hope people aren't calling into question Gigante being the real boss even when most thought it was Salerno. Furthermore, the feds don't just slap labels on guys to suit themselves. That's simply horseshit some people on the forums have always spewed in a futile effort to discredit the feds so they can in turn justify themselves and their own crackpot theories.The feds had Bellomo as the acting boss long before Gigante was convicted. And if they wanted to just slap a label on Bellomo, they could have done it long ago.

Re: Front bosses

by OlBlueEyesClub » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:36 pm

After they convicted Gigante, where do you get the idea they went after the "real boss"? After they convicted Gigante, he admitted from prison, so that the feds wouldnt go after his brother and other members of his blood family, he admitted that the crazy stuff was all an act and that he was THEE Boss of the Genovese. After the Gigante case, the feds and everyone else went back to not knowing whom the boss really was, and because of circumstantial reasoning, everyone decided on Barney Bellomo.

Also the media had nothing to do with the Bonanno guys flipping, they heard from within the family, from their own friends and associates that the top guys were flipping. The media had nothing to do with it, really. Underbosses flipped and implicated capos in crimes, then those whom were implicated, majority of those guys flipped because they had already been implicated by their own friends who flipped before them. Then after that it was a case of "first come first serve" and guys started running to the feds and running their mouths to save their ass. Richard Cantarella for example, the media had nothing to do with his decision to flip, he knew the agents Weinberg & Scozzari had tapes on him, Massino, Coppa & Vitale, not only that, he supposedly wasn't going to talk, he nor his son, until the feds had his wife indicted on money laundering charges, and thats why he inevitably talked. Nothing to do with the media. And he possibly had the knowledge of Frank Coppa flipping before him, Coppa was the first of the group to flip, he was facing a seven year sentence for stock fraud. The feds had him on racketeering charges, he supposedly had some heart condition, and knew he'd be spending the rest of his foreseeable life in prison. The man cried during his sentence in the 90's because he missed his family, there was no way he was going to do time anymore, so he cooperated. The media had NO influence on his decision. I can go on about how the media had nothing to do with their decision to flip, but I won't, I think those two examples should suffice.

Re: RE: Re: Front bosses

by JeremyTheJew » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:49 am

Antiliar wrote:
Dwalin2014 wrote:
Antiliar wrote:Due a search on HairyKnuckles's posts on the Genovese Family. He shows how there was never an actual "front boss." In reality the closest thing to a "front boss" or a "beard" is when law enforcement and the media thinks that someone who isn't the boss, is. They're not going to correct public perception and they'll have a good laugh about it. I think this was the case with Frank Nitto.
By the way, what was his official rank, is it known for sure, if he wasn't official boss "without power" with Ricca as underboss "with real power"? Was it the other way around: Ricca boss and Nitto underboss? And who was the consigliere at the time?
Curiosity: he is always called Nitti, although all documents list him as Nitto, and this was in fact his real last name he always used, so why "Nitti"? Was it a case of repeated misspelling, like Luciano Leggio/Liggio?
To answer your last question first, either the press or the police got his name wrong and repeated the error.

As for Nitto's official rank, we don't know. The only people who might know are older members like DiFronzo, Andriacchi, DeLaurentis and Lombardo based on info passed down to them. Unfortunately for us, they aren't sharing.
Absolutly. I feel ALL media covers for eachother.. Like they should. The FBI, whether ppl know it or not, runs with media such as news and newspapers to get there message out as well as to cover what they have done and show there success.

Can you imagine if the news reported EVERY case that the FBI went after? They would look like a un succesfull organization that in a way represents our countrys justice system.

That being said, yes the media is a "tool" that can be used for the FBI. such as when Gigante was walking around NY in his bathrobe, he was also reading and hearing about how succesfull his idea of the "front boss" was and how succesfull he must have felt.

Then.... As soon as that case was done, when the FBI WON the case, it was "on to the next one" where they went after the REAL BOSS.

See... Ppl dont get that media is a TOOL that can be used against these guys. When they dont read about what they are doing.... They feel safe.

Oh shit, just like with massino fam, when the MEDIA started covering who flipped when and where, all of a sudden.... THE WHOLE FAMILY FLIPPED!

Also.... I dont expecr everyone to even understand this part.... The retraction story.... Is way smaller then then the front page news saying SALERNO WAS BOSS!!!

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Re: Front bosses

by Fughedaboutit » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:08 am

JeremyTheJew wrote:Okay... See here is the problem with saying front vs street boss....

Regardless of which term ld say Ricca qualifies BC from what it looks like he was a known power behind Nitti.

Same with how Natale was a front for Merlino.
As well as Philly has been said to be a front for Genovese family.
Colombo for Gambino.

Is there anymore that havent been mentioned yet?
Natale wasnt a front for Merlino, though. He thought he was the boss. Merlino was just using him...and didn't actually install him as a front boss like Gigante did with Fat Tony imo

Re: Front bosses

by Antiliar » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:22 pm

Dwalin2014 wrote:
Antiliar wrote:Due a search on HairyKnuckles's posts on the Genovese Family. He shows how there was never an actual "front boss." In reality the closest thing to a "front boss" or a "beard" is when law enforcement and the media thinks that someone who isn't the boss, is. They're not going to correct public perception and they'll have a good laugh about it. I think this was the case with Frank Nitto.
By the way, what was his official rank, is it known for sure, if he wasn't official boss "without power" with Ricca as underboss "with real power"? Was it the other way around: Ricca boss and Nitto underboss? And who was the consigliere at the time?
Curiosity: he is always called Nitti, although all documents list him as Nitto, and this was in fact his real last name he always used, so why "Nitti"? Was it a case of repeated misspelling, like Luciano Leggio/Liggio?
To answer your last question first, either the press or the police got his name wrong and repeated the error.

As for Nitto's official rank, we don't know. The only people who might know are older members like DiFronzo, Andriacchi, DeLaurentis and Lombardo based on info passed down to them. Unfortunately for us, they aren't sharing.

Re: Front bosses

by OlBlueEyesClub » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:05 pm

SonnyBlackstein wrote:The Genovese/Philly relationship was quite complicated immediately post Bruno.

Obviously I wouldn't use the term front/street etc but it would also be correct saying they called the shots directly (in installing new management) for a while.

I wouldn't even say that. They definitely manipulated key individuals (in reality it was only really two, Caponigro & Scarfo) for their advantage. But in the end, someone like Scarfo still called the shots in Philly 100 percent. He didn't go to the Genovese for any of the individuals he had murdered, nor for the majority of his rackets. I will say the Genovese manipulated certain situations which were occurring in Philly to their advantage to get a boss in place that I guess would be easier to sway towards their direction when it came to lucrative opportunities. I wouldn't say they directly called the shots. Even Scarfo sort of manipulated his way to the boss seat through his relationship with Bobby Manna.

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