Top Mafia Misconceptions

Post a reply

Confirmation code
Enter the code exactly as it appears. All letters are case insensitive.

BBCode is OFF
Smilies are OFF

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: Top Mafia Misconceptions

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by Antiliar » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:04 pm

Morello gave a brief interview or made a brief statement, then repudiated it the next day. Maybe he thought it was going to be confidential, then when it got out he denied everything.

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by B. » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:06 pm

Didn't Giuseppe Morello himself cooperate to some degree in an early trial? Can't recall if it was in the counterfeiting trial or another. I think I read it in Mike Dash's book.

Despite the division between the "traditional" and "Americanized" guys you read a lot about, it seems even back in the earliest days guys had different definitions of "omerta".

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by phatmatress777 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:48 am

JCB1977 wrote:
phatmatress777 wrote:
OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Well, Lombardo definitely debunked that theory. Realistically how would that even be possible , that Italian immigrants brought along organized crime and that it wasn't in America prior and was a foreign concept? And a highly centralized organization or enterprise simply means that information and direction flows from top to bottom. The Irish & Chinese gangs of early NY in the early 1900's all had recorded bosses during they're time , and thats usually who they took instruction from, who in turn in many cases got their orders from politicians, thats organized crime. A concept that existed in America prior to the wave of Italian immigration.
I'm not saying that it wasn't already here .. Kinda like Columbus discovering America... People were already here... But he opened the flood gates... The Sicilian Mafia and neopolitan had operations back home they brought it with them and took it to the next level. I'm Irish and the Irish gangs interest me but imo they were never on the same level as the Italian mob.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Calabrians had as much influence as any of the other groups. Especially in the Ohio River Valley
Ok....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by JCB1977 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:12 am

phatmatress777 wrote:
OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Well, Lombardo definitely debunked that theory. Realistically how would that even be possible , that Italian immigrants brought along organized crime and that it wasn't in America prior and was a foreign concept? And a highly centralized organization or enterprise simply means that information and direction flows from top to bottom. The Irish & Chinese gangs of early NY in the early 1900's all had recorded bosses during they're time , and thats usually who they took instruction from, who in turn in many cases got their orders from politicians, thats organized crime. A concept that existed in America prior to the wave of Italian immigration.
I'm not saying that it wasn't already here .. Kinda like Columbus discovering America... People were already here... But he opened the flood gates... The Sicilian Mafia and neopolitan had operations back home they brought it with them and took it to the next level. I'm Irish and the Irish gangs interest me but imo they were never on the same level as the Italian mob.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Calabrians had as much influence as any of the other groups. Especially in the Ohio River Valley

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by OlBlueEyesClub » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:58 am

I agree that the Sicilian Cosa Nostra and by extension the American Cosa Nostra definitely took OC to an entirely new level , that cannot be argued .

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by Wiseguy » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:00 am

That's where you get into how one defines organized crime, which experts still debate today. I do think there was organized crime prior to the Italians but they took it to another level. No other group, before or since, came close to the kind of national influence - in both the illegal rackets and the legitimate world - that the LCN did. And I think a lot of their success could be attributed to good timing, ie Prohibition, the labor movement, systemic corruption, lack of law enforcement, well as about a 50 year window (1930s through 1970s) where they didn't really have significant competition. Of course, the Italians possessed the self-perpetuating criminal tradition that enabled them to take advantage of all that.

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by phatmatress777 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:05 pm

OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Well, Lombardo definitely debunked that theory. Realistically how would that even be possible , that Italian immigrants brought along organized crime and that it wasn't in America prior and was a foreign concept? And a highly centralized organization or enterprise simply means that information and direction flows from top to bottom. The Irish & Chinese gangs of early NY in the early 1900's all had recorded bosses during they're time , and thats usually who they took instruction from, who in turn in many cases got their orders from politicians, thats organized crime. A concept that existed in America prior to the wave of Italian immigration.
I'm not saying that it wasn't already here .. Kinda like Columbus discovering America... People were already here... But he opened the flood gates... The Sicilian Mafia and neopolitan had operations back home they brought it with them and took it to the next level. I'm Irish and the Irish gangs interest me but imo they were never on the same level as the Italian mob.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by OlBlueEyesClub » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:34 pm

Well, Lombardo definitely debunked that theory. Realistically how would that even be possible , that Italian immigrants brought along organized crime and that it wasn't in America prior and was a foreign concept? And a highly centralized organization or enterprise simply means that information and direction flows from top to bottom. The Irish & Chinese gangs of early NY in the early 1900's all had recorded bosses during they're time , and thats usually who they took instruction from, who in turn in many cases got their orders from politicians, thats organized crime. A concept that existed in America prior to the wave of Italian immigration.

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by phatmatress777 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:30 pm

Pogo The Clown wrote:I guess. But I find it a really big stretch to call the few Irish and Chinese groups in the 1800s "highly centralized enterprises".


Pogo
I would agree the Italian Mafia were the originators and the first major force of organized crime... If you go back and look in the 1800s it was outlaws and small gangs, it seemed to be that way for most time periods prior to 1900s, unless you want to consider history stand outs such as gengus Cohn and Cochise but they were just more savages as compared to criminals...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by JCB1977 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:49 pm

OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Joe Bonanno .
Lol, I know

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by Pogo The Clown » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:57 pm

I guess. But I find it a really big stretch to call the few Irish and Chinese groups in the 1800s "highly centralized enterprises".


Pogo

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by OlBlueEyesClub » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:35 pm

The Mafia isn't responsible for Organized Crime . They're just not . The definition of Organized Crime itself is "a category of international, transnational and local groupings of highly centralized enterprises consisting of criminals who intend to engage in illegal activity for money or profit". So even if its local, as long as they're groupings of individuals engaged in criminalistic activity simply for money, its Organized Crime. There were plenty of groups here prior to the CN who were engaged in the above. Whether it was the Irish gangs in NY, who had political connections to Tammany Hall long before the Italians did, or the Chinese based gangs who ran opium dens and prostitution in American cities dating back to the early 1900's and even earlier , it was Organized Crime. The average street gang , whether we'd like to admit it or not, is Organized Crime . The Taliban/Al-Qaeda and ISIS is Organized Crime before its Terrorism. They engage in illegal activity to help a portion of its funding for its activities toward terrorism and it's weapons buying. You had black groups in Chicago which were engaged in the policy racket among other things that were organized , and had political protection in it's own wards prior to Al Capone and Johnny Torrio , and they only worked with each other and within their own neighborhoods, this is another example of Organized Crime. Just factually speaking, Organized Crime was here prior to the Italians immigrating here and bringing it's "secret societies".

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by Pogo The Clown » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:55 am

Not sure I buy OC being around before Costa Nostra. Sure you had some localized criminals and small gangs and general political corruption but that doesn't really equate to organized crime. Much less a nationwide criminal network like Costa Nostra.


Pogo

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by OlBlueEyesClub » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:41 am

Robert Lombardo debunked that in his book Organized Crime In Chicago: Beyond The Mafia, which is an amazing book. Proved that Organized Crime and Vice was around long before the Italians immigrated to America . Which anyone with a brain should know is a fact . I mean , I dont know how anyone could think that Organized Crime just started once Italians came. It was a theory created by the media , media backed and funded by the US government because they didnt want to face the facts and admit self-blame and acknowledge that their enforcement groups and laws weren't ever enough to combat homegrown, good ol' American, organized crime and vice. So they blamed it all on the immigrants.

Re: Top Mafia Misconceptions

by DPG » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:32 am

jimmyb wrote:Not sure if anyone buys into this anymore, but Congressional Hearings in the 1950s and 1960s produced a narrative that a nationally coordinated syndicate of alien (Italian immigrant) gangsters controlled every aspect of org crime in America. So the mafia took a piece of every single illegal bet, every ounce of drugs sold, every labor shakedown, every loan sharking operation and so forth. Social scientists started debunking this narrative early on, but policy-makers and the media stuck with it for a long time.
Tjis

Top