THE BLACK HAND FORUM

I'm a little confused. Fish says no one in his borgata is dealing junk. But didn't he buy a kilo from some guys that got it from Barney and Larcas old man?

Joe Batters Accardo.

Vincent rao aswel

Agreed. It's a position that demands a savvy combination of respect, cunning, and being able to move "freely" among the families when necessary.

Manna, and Joe Gallo come to mind pretty quick.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=113324&relPageId=54&tab=page

Just thought it was interesting that this informant claimed "the most important position in any family is the consigliere" and gives a little explanation. Nothing mindblowing, but it mirrors what Cafaro said.

[quote="Antiliar"]This is what HK posted in the other forum:
This is how I understand the Genovese hierarchy to have been:

1970:

Boss - Catena (IP)
Underboss - Tommy Ryan (acting boss, killed in 1972)
Consigliere - Mike Miranda

Funzi Tieri may have served briefly as the acting boss. There is also some indication of a ruling panel briefly installed in 1970. An informant tells about a "commission" consisting of the top three ranking members.

1972:

Boss - Catena (IP, stepped down in 1973 or early 1974)
Underboss - ?/vacant
Consigliere - Mike Miranda (died in 1973)
Acting boss - Tieri or Philip Lombardo

1974:

Boss - Tieri (bad health in 1974)
Underboss - Eli Zeccardi
Consigliere - vacant, but this position later was filled by Lombardo (who suffered as stroke in 1975)

A ruling panel consisting of Pete DeFeo plus two other guys (not identified) was in place while Tieri was sick. Some indications points at Zeccardi became acting boss after dismantling of ruling panel. Lombardo´s position taken over by either Anthony Ferro or Tony Salerno, most likely on acting basis. In 1976 however, Salerno was official or acting consigliere. Ferro in prison.

1977:

Boss - Tieri
Underboss - Zeccardi (murdered in 1977)
Consigliere - Lombardo (still suffering from stroke) or Salerno (who was made underboss after Zeccardi´s murder)

Salerno was indicted in 1977, imprisoned in 1978 (six months). Some indications point at Rosario "Sally Young" Palmieri became underboss (probably acting). According to Gravano, Dom Alongi was upped to consigliere in 1976, but he was probably wrong about the year. Gigante may have served as acting consigliere in late 1970s due to Alongi being sick. When John "Buster" Ardito was arrested in 1979, some newspaper clippings claimed he was the consigliere.

1980:

Boss - Tieri (under indictment, taken down later in 1980)
Underboss - Salerno (made acting boss while Tieri was under indictment)
Consigliere - Possible still Lombardo (made acting underboss while Tieri under indictment) or Alongi (who died in 1980).

Possibly Gigante served as acting consigliere after Alongi´s death. After Tieri was taken down, a ruling panel of Salerno, Lombardo and Gigante was installed. The ruling panel was dismantled in February 1981 when Salerno suffered a mild stroke.

1981:

Boss - Lombardo (retired later same year)
Underboss - Salerno
Consigliere - Gigante (made boss after Lombardo´s retirement)

Bobby Manna was made consigliere after Gigante was upped to boss.[/quote]

In Lombardo´s file, he is mentioned by CI once as the consigliere of the Family and once as the underboss. But I don´t think the FBI ever confirmed this info. In FBI reports, dated in the 1970s, Lombardo is not confirmed ever as holding higher rank than caporegime. When I made that post Antiliar reposted, I factored in Fratianno´s and Gravano´s testimony. Fratianno claimed that to his knowledge Tieri was the boss, Zeccardi was the underboss and Salerno the consigliere around 1976/1977. Gravano, on the the other hand, testified that Alongi was the consigliere around 1976/1977, that´s something that is not confirmed in Alongi´s files. In fact, he is not mentioned as the consiglere at all in there. So it is confusing, to say the least.

However, going by the FBI reports they have on the NY Five families, dated annually from ca 1973 to 1977, Tieri was the boss, Zeccardi the underboss and John "Buster" Ardito the consigliere. But how exactly Fratianno´s and Gravano´s claims fits in with all this is a mystery. In the mid 1970s, there was a ruling panel of Zeccardi, Ardito and Alongi running the Genoveses.

I can't seem to find it anywhere but why was Zeccardi murdered?

makes sense. I wasnt sure when the books were re-opened

[quote="Snakes"]I think HK and B are saying he underestimated it by a couple years. Guys in NYC weren't getting made until 1976 at the earliest, I believe.[/quote]

Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't know better if JD hadn't cross-referenced informants from different families from that same time period.

Thanks Rick for re-posting HK's post. He's done a lot of great work mapping out the Genovese family during the 1970s in particular which is one of the murkiest periods of their history (or at least it has been until very recently).

The thing Cafaro mentions about Salerno being "pulled down" in 1981 by Lombardo, Gigante, and Santora is interesting to me. We've heard about Genovese leaders putting a vote to murders for example in the late 70s (Fratianno book). I have to wonder if all major decisions were put to a vote or panel decision like that, at least in the mid-late 1970s through early 1980s, which also happens to be where the most questions and conflicting info about the hierarchy are focused.

[quote="Antiliar"]
A ruling panel consisting of Pete DeFeo plus two other guys (not identified) was in place while Tieri was sick. Some indications points at Zeccardi became acting boss after dismantling of ruling panel. Lombardo´s position taken over by either Anthony Ferro or Tony Salerno, most likely on acting basis. In 1976 however, Salerno was official or acting consigliere. Ferro in prison.[/quote]

It's Jiggy knowledge but accordingly the ruling panel was DeFeo, Zeccardi and Stracci.

I think HK and B are saying he underestimated it by a couple years. Guys in NYC weren't getting made until 1976 at the earliest, I believe.

So when do we think fish was made? I have no opinion just curious.

This is what HK posted in the other forum:
This is how I understand the Genovese hierarchy to have been:

1970:

Boss - Catena (IP)
Underboss - Tommy Ryan (acting boss, killed in 1972)
Consigliere - Mike Miranda

Funzi Tieri may have served briefly as the acting boss. There is also some indication of a ruling panel briefly installed in 1970. An informant tells about a "commission" consisting of the top three ranking members.

1972:

Boss - Catena (IP, stepped down in 1973 or early 1974)
Underboss - ?/vacant
Consigliere - Mike Miranda (died in 1973)
Acting boss - Tieri or Philip Lombardo

1974:

Boss - Tieri (bad health in 1974)
Underboss - Eli Zeccardi
Consigliere - vacant, but this position later was filled by Lombardo (who suffered as stroke in 1975)

A ruling panel consisting of Pete DeFeo plus two other guys (not identified) was in place while Tieri was sick. Some indications points at Zeccardi became acting boss after dismantling of ruling panel. Lombardo´s position taken over by either Anthony Ferro or Tony Salerno, most likely on acting basis. In 1976 however, Salerno was official or acting consigliere. Ferro in prison.

1977:

Boss - Tieri
Underboss - Zeccardi (murdered in 1977)
Consigliere - Lombardo (still suffering from stroke) or Salerno (who was made underboss after Zeccardi´s murder)

Salerno was indicted in 1977, imprisoned in 1978 (six months). Some indications point at Rosario "Sally Young" Palmieri became underboss (probably acting). According to Gravano, Dom Alongi was upped to consigliere in 1976, but he was probably wrong about the year. Gigante may have served as acting consigliere in late 1970s due to Alongi being sick. When John "Buster" Ardito was arrested in 1979, some newspaper clippings claimed he was the consigliere.

1980:

Boss - Tieri (under indictment, taken down later in 1980)
Underboss - Salerno (made acting boss while Tieri was under indictment)
Consigliere - Possible still Lombardo (made acting underboss while Tieri under indictment) or Alongi (who died in 1980).

Possibly Gigante served as acting consigliere after Alongi´s death. After Tieri was taken down, a ruling panel of Salerno, Lombardo and Gigante was installed. The ruling panel was dismantled in February 1981 when Salerno suffered a mild stroke.

1981:

Boss - Lombardo (retired later same year)
Underboss - Salerno
Consigliere - Gigante (made boss after Lombardo´s retirement)

Bobby Manna was made consigliere after Gigante was upped to boss.

The assumption about Cafaro seems to be that he was lying to help out Salerno, but that doesn't make sense to me, especially since just about everyone agrees now that Gigante was the official boss through most of the 1980s. He makes it clear that Salerno was a high-ranking Genovese leader who he implicated in a variety of crimes, from low-level to high. I think Cafaro probably understood RICO well enough to know that he wasn't doing Salerno any favors. He also flipped because of Salerno's treatment of him. I don't know why he'd want to jeopardize his cooperation agreement to help a guy who directly caused him to flip.

I don't think he was close to Tieri, and Tieri was dead by the time Cafaro flipped. HK and others have done a lot of research that points to Tieri being the official boss, and I don't know enough to challenge that. I just don't know why Cafaro would deliberately lie about the power structure unless he was misled by his superiors or made incorrect assumptions (i.e. Lombardo was an unofficial adviser to Tieri and Cafaro interpreted that as a formal setup). What gives him a bit more weight than other (most likely unknown) informants is his closeness to Salerno, who was a top leader during these years. Still, I don't know, though.

I think HK closes the book ( :mrgreen: ) on the issue with the not unimportant detail that the restaurant wasn't even open in '74.

Who knows why he said it. Perhaps it was a covert message to the street that he was bullshitting the Feds.
Maybe that's why he cites Lombardo, to appease Tieri.

Now that's a long bow :mrgreen: