American mafia beginnings

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Re: American mafia beginnings

by B. » Sun Mar 09, 2025 2:06 pm

Yep, Camporeale was one of the Trapani towns I was thinking of. Vita also had a strong presence there but I'm not sure how early. Calderone identified a few names with the Tunis Family involved with the murder of his uncle and though we can't definitively pin them down the surnames suggest Trapanese origins too. Interestingly he said not all the members living in Tunis were formally with the Tunis Family so there were some remote members there as well.

Re: American mafia beginnings

by Antiliar » Mon Mar 03, 2025 2:39 am

B. wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:40 am Yeah, it's certainly possible some Families were decine of other early US Families once the mafia became more entrenched in the US.

I'm sure Tunis started out similarly as well, in their case I'd bet they were a decina of a Trapanese Family given Trapani province looks to have played the biggest role there.
My guess for Tunis would be Camporeale.

Re: American mafia beginnings

by scagghiuni » Sun Mar 02, 2025 3:34 am

CabriniGreen wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:46 pm
scagghiuni wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:45 pm
B. wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:40 am It's also interesting that this played out within Sicily itself. Calderone said the original members in Catania were actually members of a Palermo Family (he doesn't say decina but could well have been) before they got recognition. I'm sure Tunis started out similarly as well, in their case I'd bet they were a decina of a Trapanese Family given Trapani province looks to have played the biggest role there.
start a Cosa Nostra family is more difficult than a Ndrangheta locale, in north Italy there were decinas in Milan, Turin, Rome, Genoa, Tuscany etc, but the Commission never reocgnized families over there
When did Catania go from one family according to Calderone to......what now? Is it 4?

Santapaolo- Ercolano, Mazzei, are Cosa Nostra. The Laudauni are like what..... the armed wing of the Santaspaolo, but independent. Like a mafia version of Blackwater or something?

What are the Carrateddi? Is that it? The Capello- Bonaccorsi are the same thing? Or no? Are they Cosa Nostra officially? Also, the Cursoti.....Cosa Nostra too?
in Catania province there are 4 Cosa Nostra families: Santapala, Mazzei and the ones based in the towns of Caltagirone and Ramacca, the others are all independent (Cappello, Laudani, Cursoti etc.)
Carateddi and Cappello is the same thing...

Re: American mafia beginnings

by CabriniGreen » Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:46 pm

scagghiuni wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:45 pm
B. wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:40 am It's also interesting that this played out within Sicily itself. Calderone said the original members in Catania were actually members of a Palermo Family (he doesn't say decina but could well have been) before they got recognition. I'm sure Tunis started out similarly as well, in their case I'd bet they were a decina of a Trapanese Family given Trapani province looks to have played the biggest role there.
start a Cosa Nostra family is more difficult than a Ndrangheta locale, in north Italy there were decinas in Milan, Turin, Rome, Genoa, Tuscany etc, but the Commission never reocgnized families over there
When did Catania go from one family according to Calderone to......what now? Is it 4?

Santapaolo- Ercolano, Mazzei, are Cosa Nostra. The Laudauni are like what..... the armed wing of the Santaspaolo, but independent. Like a mafia version of Blackwater or something?

What are the Carrateddi? Is that it? The Capello- Bonaccorsi are the same thing? Or no? Are they Cosa Nostra officially? Also, the Cursoti.....Cosa Nostra too?

Re: American mafia beginnings

by scagghiuni » Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:45 pm

B. wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:40 am It's also interesting that this played out within Sicily itself. Calderone said the original members in Catania were actually members of a Palermo Family (he doesn't say decina but could well have been) before they got recognition. I'm sure Tunis started out similarly as well, in their case I'd bet they were a decina of a Trapanese Family given Trapani province looks to have played the biggest role there.
start a Cosa Nostra family is more difficult than a Ndrangheta locale, in north Italy there were decinas in Milan, Turin, Rome, Genoa, Tuscany etc, but the Commission never reocgnized families over there

Re: American mafia beginnings

by B. » Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:40 am

Yeah, it's certainly possible some Families were decine of other early US Families once the mafia became more entrenched in the US.

Messina pointing out that these decine were an extension of their Sicilian paesi also brings to mind Giuseppe Morello writing that Cascio Ferro and Enea violated a rule by inducting someone without consulting the proposed member's compaesani as well as Harry Riccobene saying that the early Philadelphia Families were restricted to men from the same hometown. We can see compaesani relations still played a role in the formalities even after US Families became recognized so it makes sense to me that they were originally still part of their Sicilian hometown Families. Be interesting to know when the transition happened and the Families started to become recognized.

It's also interesting that this played out within Sicily itself. Calderone said the original members in Catania were actually members of a Palermo Family (he doesn't say decina but could well have been) before they got recognition. I'm sure Tunis started out similarly as well, in their case I'd bet they were a decina of a Trapanese Family given Trapani province looks to have played the biggest role there.

Re: American mafia beginnings

by Antiliar » Fri Feb 28, 2025 9:29 am

B. wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:51 pm I found the testimony from Leonardo Messina and like Scagghiuni mentioned he does indeed say that the American Families began as decine of their original Sicilian Families -- their paesi, as he says, and uses the Castellammaresi, Alcamesi, and Palermitani as examples. He says they then developed their own local, autonomous structure and were not beholden to Sicily but still part of the same wider organization and worked together in matters of international concern, as we already know.

Keep in mind Messina was a high-ranking member in San Cataldo who came from a long line of important members there. San Cataldo produced many important American mafiosi and I'm sure the older generations in San Cataldo were well-aware of what their paesani were part of in the US, so he was in a better position to hear these kinds of anecdotes than someone in Catania for example where fewer US connections existed. San Cataldo also neighbored Montedoro which essentially produced the Pittston Family and Sancataldesi were part of that Family too.

We have already long-concluded that American Families started as some form of offshoot of their original Sicilian hometown Families, it being obvious the original Families were compaesani-based with a Family identity tied to their hometown, but Messina confirming this understanding from within the Sicilian mafia and also commenting that they began as remote decine of Sicilian Families is a great addition. This is very close to what I already believed -- that the original American mafiosi were still formal affiliates of their original Sicilian borgata -- but again great to hear it from a multi-generation Sicilian mafioso.

The development of the Santa Ninfa and Siculiana decine in Venezuela as two recognized Families much later on was probably the exact same process even though Venezuela in the mid-to-late 20th century was a much different environment than the United States in the later 1800s and early 1900s.

But of course the truth is these guys were just random poor Italian immigrants who got together through bootlegging and then Luciano organized them into a fine-tuned national organization in a matter of months.
Yes, I found Leonardo Messina's testimony in a parliamentary hearing in the Internet Archive after Scagghiuni mentioned it. It made me wonder if some of the earliest American families began as outposts of New Orleans. In another post I mentioned Houston in this regard. Bill Bonanno wrote how the American Mafia sprouted in New Orleans then spread out along the Mississippi River (and I assume its tributaries) to St. Louis and other cities. There were crimes in St. Louis suggesting Mafia activity as early as the 1870s. With the opening of Ellis Island in 1892 making New York the main immigration hub it would have made it easier for Sicilian borgate to plant flags in the U.S. The 1891 mass lynching undoubtedly had an effect too.

Re: American mafia beginnings

by Ivan » Wed Feb 26, 2025 6:09 am

B. wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:51 pm But of course the truth is these guys were just random poor Italian immigrants who got together through bootlegging and then Luciano organized them into a fine-tuned national organization in a matter of months.
Also every boss before Capone/Torrio, Luciano, Lucchese, and the rest of that forward-thinking generation of Americanized entrepreneurs was a mentally retarded obese vampire.

Re: American mafia beginnings

by B. » Tue Feb 25, 2025 11:08 pm

He also brought this up after discussing the existence of remote European decine I mentioned in another thread: a Mannheim decina that belonged to the Palma di Montechiaro Family, a Brussels decina that belonged to the Campofranco Family, and the Grenoble decina of the Sommatino Family. We know with Grenoble that a huge chunk of Sommatino's population migrated there so it makes sense an element of the local mafia Family moved there with them and there was a strong enough presence that a decina could be organized.

What's important to note is that these aren't necessarily large, powerful Palermo Families "planting flags" in obvious places for purely nefarious reasons, but the result of organic migration patterns and sustained connections. It's not dissimilar from Montedoresi migrating in large numbers to Pittston of all places and forming a borgata, which may have started as a decina of the Montedoro Family. It is unlikely that we would see the Sommatino decina in Grenoble gain recognition as a Family but we have seen that happen in Venezuela and the broader point is that this is all part of the same process, both organic and formal.

Re: American mafia beginnings

by B. » Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:51 pm

I found the testimony from Leonardo Messina and like Scagghiuni mentioned he does indeed say that the American Families began as decine of their original Sicilian Families -- their paesi, as he says, and uses the Castellammaresi, Alcamesi, and Palermitani as examples. He says they then developed their own local, autonomous structure and were not beholden to Sicily but still part of the same wider organization and worked together in matters of international concern, as we already know.

Keep in mind Messina was a high-ranking member in San Cataldo who came from a long line of important members there. San Cataldo produced many important American mafiosi and I'm sure the older generations in San Cataldo were well-aware of what their paesani were part of in the US, so he was in a better position to hear these kinds of anecdotes than someone in Catania for example where fewer US connections existed. San Cataldo also neighbored Montedoro which essentially produced the Pittston Family and Sancataldesi were part of that Family too.

We have already long-concluded that American Families started as some form of offshoot of their original Sicilian hometown Families, it being obvious the original Families were compaesani-based with a Family identity tied to their hometown, but Messina confirming this understanding from within the Sicilian mafia and also commenting that they began as remote decine of Sicilian Families is a great addition. This is very close to what I already believed -- that the original American mafiosi were still formal affiliates of their original Sicilian borgata -- but again great to hear it from a multi-generation Sicilian mafioso.

The development of the Santa Ninfa and Siculiana decine in Venezuela as two recognized Families much later on was probably the exact same process even though Venezuela in the mid-to-late 20th century was a much different environment than the United States in the later 1800s and early 1900s.

But of course the truth is these guys were just random poor Italian immigrants who got together through bootlegging and then Luciano organized them into a fine-tuned national organization in a matter of months.

Re: American mafia beginnings

by johnny_scootch » Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:40 pm

Medicated wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2024 6:59 pm
B. wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:18 pm I've never seen that about American Families beginning as decine of Sicilian Families but the two Venezuelan Families started as decine (of Santa Ninfa and Siculiana) then were later recognized as Families with the approval of the Sicilian and American mafia leadership so a similar process might well have played out in the early US.
That's interesting. Would you happen to know where I might find more information on these two Venezuelan families?
viewtopic.php?t=7050

Re: American mafia beginnings

by Medicated » Sun Jul 07, 2024 6:59 pm

B. wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:18 pm I've never seen that about American Families beginning as decine of Sicilian Families but the two Venezuelan Families started as decine (of Santa Ninfa and Siculiana) then were later recognized as Families with the approval of the Sicilian and American mafia leadership so a similar process might well have played out in the early US.
That's interesting. Would you happen to know where I might find more information on these two Venezuelan families?

Re: American mafia beginnings

by scagghiuni » Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:42 am

Antiliar wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:12 pm
scagghiuni wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:36 am according to some sicilian turncoat the American families started as decinas of the Sicilian ones
Do you have more information on this source?
Leonardo Messina, for example, said it; there were declarations in front of the anti-mafia commission headed by Violante at that time

Re: American mafia beginnings

by B. » Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:18 pm

I've never seen that about American Families beginning as decine of Sicilian Families but the two Venezuelan Families started as decine (of Santa Ninfa and Siculiana) then were later recognized as Families with the approval of the Sicilian and American mafia leadership so a similar process might well have played out in the early US.

Morello wrote that Americans were supposed to consult with the compaesani of a proposed member before making him in the early 1900s so it would make sense Families were similarly formed with the approval of their hometown Family, especially since the initial members would have been transfers and hometown played such a pivotal role in the identities of early Families.

A source told the FBI the American mafia initially only allowed Sicilian-born members then grew to allow American-born Sicilians followed by the other Italian ethnic groups. This doesn't tell us anything about the formation of Families themselves but it does tell us something about the attitude and make-up of the Families. I'm confident the initial Families weren't random Sicilians deciding to organize but Western Sicilians from the mafia tradition who operated as branches of the same system. Letters were common as was traveling back and forth so even though communication was difficult by later standards it still took place.

Another thing is that Leonardo Messina said a borgata needed ten members to form (interestingly the same size as a traditional decina). Possible in the early US the same rule was at play and after ten members moved to an area or were inducted, the group could request recognition as their own distinct borgata.

Re: American mafia beginnings

by Ivan » Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:43 pm

Antiliar wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:17 pm
Ivan wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 12:58 am Yeah this has probably been lost permanently barring some amazing new discovery, which is unlikely.

Best we can do is take bits and pieces of information, and reasoning from what we already know about how this stuff works, come up with possible-but-unproven reconstructions of what was going on then. This is the sort of methodology that has for example led some to conclude that Nicola Taranto was a "Gambino" boss in the 1890s, or that said family emerged in the 1870s.

But that's all, really. Just reconstructions.
I hope I was clear in the article that Taranto "may have been" a Gambino boss, not that he definitely was. I make sure to use a lot of qualifiers to show that it's speculation, a possibility, and a theory.
You were! Sorry, I wasn't clear about that myself.

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