THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **Patrickgold** » Mon Jun 09, 2025 10:08 pm

NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 09, 2025 7:18 pm
funkster wrote: ↑Mon Jun 09, 2025 6:52 pm
NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 3:44 pm
Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm
funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.

Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?
Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.
Also saw there is now "The Patch" club down by Nottolis when I was getting lunch there. Guessing guys from Grand Ave neighborhood who moved out to suburbs
That’s been there for a few years now, saw it want to say 2022 or so when I was roaming around there.
Think it was a soccer club before that

Correct. It was a soccer club before that. I rarely ever see anybody coming in and out of the place. A week ago I saw the door open and looked in. Looks exactly like every other social club, which is basically espresso/coffee machine and tables with chairs for cards lol

by **NickyEyes1** » Mon Jun 09, 2025 7:18 pm

funkster wrote: ↑Mon Jun 09, 2025 6:52 pm
NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 3:44 pm
Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm
funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.

Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?
Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.
Also saw there is now "The Patch" club down by Nottolis when I was getting lunch there. Guessing guys from Grand Ave neighborhood who moved out to suburbs
That’s been there for a few years now, saw it want to say 2022 or so when I was roaming around there.

Think it was a soccer club before that

by **funkster** » Mon Jun 09, 2025 6:52 pm

NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 3:44 pm
Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm
funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.

Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?
Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.
Also saw there is now "The Patch" club down by Nottolis when I was getting lunch there. Guessing guys from Grand Ave neighborhood who moved out to suburbs

That’s been there for a few years now, saw it want to say 2022 or so when I was roaming around there.

by **NickyEyes1** » Sun Jun 08, 2025 3:44 pm

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm
funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.

Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?
Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.

Also saw there is now "The Patch" club down by Nottolis when I was getting lunch there. Guessing guys from Grand Ave neighborhood who moved out to suburbs

by **Patrickgold** » Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:02 pm

funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.

Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?

Just south of Sorrentos is a “Italian cafe” that was taken over by Albanians. It still has the Italian flag on the outside but it is Albanian. Supposedly a lot of gambling goes on in there among other things and these Albanians are paying a certain guy on Addison St at least 6 gs a month in “rent” money.

by **Patrickgold** » Sun Jun 08, 2025 12:58 pm

Agostino’s was a big loss to the neighborhood. Nobody can figure out why they rebuilt it then closed it down a short time later. The family has some type of sausage factory business way north and does very good for themselves and got tired of the restaurant business. The kid did time for selling ecstasy but is doing good now with being partial owner of a couple of restaurants in the city. One of them is Peanut Park trattoria on Taylor street. A little history, DiFronzo supposedly held his goodbye dinner at Agostino’s before he reported to the federal pen in 1993.

Also, Alex Dana has decided to reopen Rosebud on Taylor which everyone is very happy about.

by **Ivan** » Sun Jun 08, 2025 1:07 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 10:58 pm While in the city limits, this was basically a suburban area, bordering suburbs like Elmwood Park and Norridge, and a second/third gen Italian settlement area, not one of the “old neighborhoods” in the inner city (so, kinda similar to SI if we were comparing it to NYC).

I like this comparison a lot.

Anyway you had it right the first time. "Dwindling" is le mot juste for those places. "Little Italy" is spread out in the 'burbs now, plus a fair amount scattered throughout the Sun Belt etc.

by **PolackTony** » Sat Jun 07, 2025 10:58 pm

Where Chicago differs from NYC is that for the former, the Italian population was already largely suburbanized by the 1980s. While some remained in Armour Square, the Italian subsection of Bridgeport, and (to a lesser extent) some holdouts dug in around the old Grand Ave and Taylor St sections on the Westside, most of the Italians remaining in the city of Chicago had by then become strongly concentrated in the far NW Side neighborhoods surrounding N Harlem Ave (Dunning, Montclare, Belmont Heights, Schorsch Village, Galewood). While in the city limits, this was basically a suburban area, bordering suburbs like Elmwood Park and Norridge, and a second/third gen Italian settlement area, not one of the “old neighborhoods” in the inner city (so, kinda similar to SI if we were comparing it to NYC). What’s happened in the decades since has been a major outflux of Italians from this area and from the various Italian inner ring suburbs to further out suburbs and exurbs.

While many NY Tri-State Itals were also suburbanized by the 1980s, NYC retained comparatively more Italians within the city limits until later than Chicago. There are a number of ways that the two cities are incomparable, and not really worth getting into the weeds on it here. But things are heading in the same direction in many of the remaining Italian communities in the boros now too. Compared to, say, East Harlem, Bensonhurst is “still sort of a thing”, but that phrase would be doing a lot of work. The decline there is already very significant.

by **Ivan** » Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:20 pm

Yeah Italian-Americans mostly live in suburbs now (plus Staten Island, which is a "de facto" suburb lol). That's the authentic, vital Italian-American experience in 2025. Not some "old neighborhood" in the city limits being kept on life support by nostalgia/tourism + residual older people who just haven't gotten around to dying or leaving yet. There does seem to be an odd reluctance to accept this fact among some.

"Dwindling" is an entirely appropriate descriptor for urban "Little Italy" type places pretty much everywhere in the country. I think Bensonhurst and a few other genuinely urban (compared to Staten Island) places in the NY outer boroughs might still be sort of a thing though (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Just my opinion.

by **PolackTony** » Sat Jun 07, 2025 8:49 pm

Yeah, I was there last shortly after Agostino’s closed down and was taken aback at how much the business strip declined, as I hadn’t been there in a good number of years by then. I took some people out that way who weren’t very familiar with the area, but I hadn’t realized that Agostino’s was gone. As you note, there were basically no real Italian restaurants left, which was really surprising to me. Wound up driving out to Elmhurst and went to a decent little spot owned by some people from Acerra, but that was already an annoying drive when you’re staying in the city. Too much of a hassle to drive all the way out to those farther burbs for me so I’d rather just stick to city joints like Mart Anthony when I’m back in town.

Also, thanks for the reminder on what Coconate said about Onesti lol. I do honestly wish them all the best in trying to shore up what’s left there around Piazza Italia, but even best case scenario it’s still going to be a shadow of what it used to be. Again, this is the way of world, only so much you can do. And again, far from just a Chicago thing — prime example being what’s happened with 18th Ave in Bensonhurst.

by **Patrickgold** » Sat Jun 07, 2025 8:32 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 3:06 pm
NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 1:34 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 12:07 pm
NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 10:59 am
Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 10:49 am
funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.

Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?
It’s a take out food only place now. They cut the building into three different businesses with one being Sorrentos. So it is very likely the picture was taken in one of the other businesses because there is no dining room area now. Just a counter to pay and pick up food and a kitchen in back.
It's too bad Agostinos closed down. I went past there the other day and it's still empty
End of an era, Fiasche family had Agostino's going for like 40 years there. They had that big kitchen fire in 2021 and managed to rebound from it, just to close for good two years later. Harlem Ave is... not what it used to be, though that's not news to anyone familiar with the area. This is also the way of the world. I know that the hope is that the relocation of the IASHF to Harlem is going to shore up the dwindling Italian character of that strip and spark a renaissance, but I wouldn't be overly hopeful about this myself.
Tony I don't think I would go as far to say "dwindling" for the area. But the Italian character has definitely lessened in the last 10/15 years. Definitely the most concentrated area in Chicagoland
Sure, “dwindling” might be an overstatement (or, at least, premature, as I think that will be the situation before too much longer) and “declining” more accurately captures what I meant. I can say that when I’ve gone back, Harlem Ave is noticeably not what it used to be, but nothing stays the same, so this is to be expected. There’s also multiple facets to this. On the one hand, you have the presence of Italian businesses and cultural institutions. My impression is that these are declining along Harlem Ave. The relocation of the IASHF is in part intended to stem this decline and reinvigorate the “Italian” character of the business strip. I hope that this is successful, but the fact that the former Agostino site remains vacant isn’t a good sign. Another facet is the actual demographic trends of the surrounding communities. My impression here is that decline in the proportion of Italian residents, both on the Elmwood Park and Chicago sides, has been even more notable than the decline of the business strip. Anecdotal, but from people I know who still live in that area, the surrounding communities are becoming more strongly Latino and Polish/Eastern Euro by the day. I don’t have objective figures for demographic change since, say the 90s/2000s, but I would imagine it has been considerable. And then, how many of the remaining Italians are older folks? How many younger Italians, with families, are buying homes in the area? What happens when the older cohort dies or sells their homes?

Today, you see popular and successful Italian restaurants distributed all across the more affluent sections of Chicagoland, from the City to outlying burbs like the Barringtons. This reflects the increasingly dispersed nature of the Italian population of the region. One can’t put the cat back into the bag here, so to speak, and despite any attempts to shore up the Italian legacy of Harlem Ave, I don’t see this pattern as likely to change. Harlem Ave is, of course, never going to again be what it used to be. IMO, the best that can be hoped for is “managed decline”, where some businesses and institutions hold on while the surrounding communities retain an increasingly minor Italian population.

Of course, none of these trends are unique to Chicago and are also very much evident around NYC.

Tony, I live in the area and I would say dwindling is an appropriate term. Just 10 years ago there were so many more Italian businesses. A lot of closed down and some have moved unfortunately. There are basically no sit down Italian restaurants in the area. Donny G’s on North, which is owned by a Greek, and Jim & Pete’s also on North are the only ones. Both are located in Elmwood Park. Both are not impressive. Pompeii is opening up in the circle in EP which will be nice. Forno Rosso is still there but is more a pizza place.

Ron Onesti, who Frank Coconate use to call an Italian Pimp, is hoping that the Italian American Sports Hall of Fame attracts more businesses. It will all be centered on Plaza Italia which is located a little south of Addison. Onesti is opening up a Gelata cafe place across the street from the sports hall of fame, hardcore Italian is opening up a store there, there is supposedly a restaurant opening up and some other Italian organizations are opening up offices around there. They want this area from basically Grand to Irving to be designated Little Italy and want to make it a tourist attraction. Not sure if it’s going to work but we will see.

by **funkster** » Sat Jun 07, 2025 5:55 pm

Headed home i saw what appeared to be a locked up social club with an American flag in the window a little bit off harlem on grand. Not sure that I've seen it before, will have to check the exact address out when im out there again.

Great link Tony thanks.

by **PolackTony** » Sat Jun 07, 2025 3:06 pm

NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 1:34 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 12:07 pm
NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 10:59 am
Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 10:49 am
funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.

Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?
It’s a take out food only place now. They cut the building into three different businesses with one being Sorrentos. So it is very likely the picture was taken in one of the other businesses because there is no dining room area now. Just a counter to pay and pick up food and a kitchen in back.
It's too bad Agostinos closed down. I went past there the other day and it's still empty
End of an era, Fiasche family had Agostino's going for like 40 years there. They had that big kitchen fire in 2021 and managed to rebound from it, just to close for good two years later. Harlem Ave is... not what it used to be, though that's not news to anyone familiar with the area. This is also the way of the world. I know that the hope is that the relocation of the IASHF to Harlem is going to shore up the dwindling Italian character of that strip and spark a renaissance, but I wouldn't be overly hopeful about this myself.
Tony I don't think I would go as far to say "dwindling" for the area. But the Italian character has definitely lessened in the last 10/15 years. Definitely the most concentrated area in Chicagoland

Sure, “dwindling” might be an overstatement (or, at least, premature, as I think that will be the situation before too much longer) and “declining” more accurately captures what I meant. I can say that when I’ve gone back, Harlem Ave is noticeably not what it used to be, but nothing stays the same, so this is to be expected. There’s also multiple facets to this. On the one hand, you have the presence of Italian businesses and cultural institutions. My impression is that these are declining along Harlem Ave. The relocation of the IASHF is in part intended to stem this decline and reinvigorate the “Italian” character of the business strip. I hope that this is successful, but the fact that the former Agostino site remains vacant isn’t a good sign. Another facet is the actual demographic trends of the surrounding communities. My impression here is that decline in the proportion of Italian residents, both on the Elmwood Park and Chicago sides, has been even more notable than the decline of the business strip. Anecdotal, but from people I know who still live in that area, the surrounding communities are becoming more strongly Latino and Polish/Eastern Euro by the day. I don’t have objective figures for demographic change since, say the 90s/2000s, but I would imagine it has been considerable. And then, how many of the remaining Italians are older folks? How many younger Italians, with families, are buying homes in the area? What happens when the older cohort dies or sells their homes?

Today, you see popular and successful Italian restaurants distributed all across the more affluent sections of Chicagoland, from the City to outlying burbs like the Barringtons. This reflects the increasingly dispersed nature of the Italian population of the region. One can’t put the cat back into the bag here, so to speak, and despite any attempts to shore up the Italian legacy of Harlem Ave, I don’t see this pattern as likely to change. Harlem Ave is, of course, never going to again be what it used to be. IMO, the best that can be hoped for is “managed decline”, where some businesses and institutions hold on while the surrounding communities retain an increasingly minor Italian population.

Of course, none of these trends are unique to Chicago and are also very much evident around NYC.

by **funkster** » Sat Jun 07, 2025 1:48 pm

Lol drove off and was like holy shit look where we’re at

by **NickyEyes1** » Sat Jun 07, 2025 1:34 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 12:07 pm
NickyEyes1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 10:59 am
Patrickgold wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 10:49 am
funkster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 9:51 am He has jumped the shark for sure.

Just attended kids party on Harlem literally two doors down from Sorrentos, hasn’t it been figured that this is where the last supper meeting was?
It’s a take out food only place now. They cut the building into three different businesses with one being Sorrentos. So it is very likely the picture was taken in one of the other businesses because there is no dining room area now. Just a counter to pay and pick up food and a kitchen in back.
It's too bad Agostinos closed down. I went past there the other day and it's still empty
End of an era, Fiasche family had Agostino's going for like 40 years there. They had that big kitchen fire in 2021 and managed to rebound from it, just to close for good two years later. Harlem Ave is... not what it used to be, though that's not news to anyone familiar with the area. This is also the way of the world. I know that the hope is that the relocation of the IASHF to Harlem is going to shore up the dwindling Italian character of that strip and spark a renaissance, but I wouldn't be overly hopeful about this myself.

Tony I don't think I would go as far to say "dwindling" for the area. But the Italian character has definitely lessened in the last 10/15 years. Definitely the most concentrated area in Chicagoland

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