THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Antiliar wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 5:23 pm

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:19 pm Also, it seems like the "West Side" was sometimes (but not always) used by Chicago guys in reference to the administration.

I used to see "out West" during the Giancana era.

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:19 pm Also, it seems like the "West Side" was sometimes (but not always) used by Chicago guys in reference to the administration.

Snakes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:19 pm Also, it seems like the "West Side" was sometimes (but not always) used by Chicago guys in reference to the administration.

funkster wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 12:20 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 9:02 am

B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2025 6:36 pm Phenomenal work as always.

It's always good to see it pointed out too that even though these decine have a strong geographic component, they weren't necessarily limited to one central geographic area.

Just a note about the interchangeable use of "capo" and "boss" -- I don't think people realize "boss" is the actual translation of capo. Capodecina = boss of ten, capofamiglia = boss of a Family, and so on.

In the past, some seemed to see Chicago's use of "boss" for what we would normally call "captains" as some kind of unique organizational distinction when in reality they are using a more accurate translation of the term "capo". The Italian word for "captain" is capitano and obviously they share the same root but "capo" literally translates to "head" and is the Italian word for "boss".

100%. Other considerations here are the problems of quality of source (with respect to knowledge of the mafia organization itself, rather than just “operational” organized crime activities) and LE glossing of actual informant language (the problem of “attributed speech”, where a report can make it seem that language chosen by LE agents to summarize or interpret an informant’s account were verbatim usages by the informant, when they in fact were not).

Once we get an actual made Chicago member testifying on the stand, with direct transcripts of his actual testimony, we no longer see stuff like “street boss” or “crew boss”; Nick C was instead explicit that the terms used within the organization itself were “capo” and “captain”. Of course people have gone Procrustean in response, trying to mold the evidence to fit their beliefs — “they must’ve changed it!!”. But going back to the 60s, when we have one of the very few recorded sit downs with the boss of the Family, we see that they indeed called this position “capodecina”, when talking amongst themselves in a formal, organizational setting.

So we get two levels of confusion on these things. Firstly, it doesn’t actually matter whether or not guys in Chicago always glossed or translated organizational terms in exactly the same way as guys in NYC. These were translated from Sicilian/Italian in imprecise ways within distinct local subcultures in the US (I was tempted to say that these guys were not linguists and professional translators, but Chicago in fact had a powerful boss who *was* a linguist and professional translator lol). So there will be some variability in how guys in different cities (not to mention different generational cohorts) talk, though as you note, calling a guy a “crew boss” is actually a more accurate direct translation than calling him a “captain”. The other level is that, once we get ahold of verbatim attestations from actual Chicago LCN member, they did not, in fact, substantively talk differently than guys in other Families, though the street-level lingo among hangers-on, associates, etc., varied by locality.

A few of the local differences I particularly love are “sent for” and “whistled in”, “flattened” and “wacked”, and “merch” and “swag”.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 9:02 am

B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2025 6:36 pm Phenomenal work as always.

It's always good to see it pointed out too that even though these decine have a strong geographic component, they weren't necessarily limited to one central geographic area.

Just a note about the interchangeable use of "capo" and "boss" -- I don't think people realize "boss" is the actual translation of capo. Capodecina = boss of ten, capofamiglia = boss of a Family, and so on.

In the past, some seemed to see Chicago's use of "boss" for what we would normally call "captains" as some kind of unique organizational distinction when in reality they are using a more accurate translation of the term "capo". The Italian word for "captain" is capitano and obviously they share the same root but "capo" literally translates to "head" and is the Italian word for "boss".

100%. Other considerations here are the problems of quality of source (with respect to knowledge of the mafia organization itself, rather than just “operational” organized crime activities) and LE glossing of actual informant language (the problem of “attributed speech”, where a report can make it seem that language chosen by LE agents to summarize or interpret an informant’s account were verbatim usages by the informant, when they in fact were not).

Once we get an actual made Chicago member testifying on the stand, with direct transcripts of his actual testimony, we no longer see stuff like “street boss” or “crew boss”; Nick C was instead explicit that the terms used within the organization itself were “capo” and “captain”. Of course people have gone Procrustean in response, trying to mold the evidence to fit their beliefs — “they must’ve changed it!!”. But going back to the 60s, when we have one of the very few recorded sit downs with the boss of the Family, we see that they indeed called this position “capodecina”, when talking amongst themselves in a formal, organizational setting.

So we get two levels of confusion on these things. Firstly, it doesn’t actually matter whether or not guys in Chicago always glossed or translated organizational terms in exactly the same way as guys in NYC. These were translated from Sicilian/Italian in imprecise ways within distinct local subcultures in the US (I was tempted to say that these guys were not linguists and professional translators, but Chicago in fact had a powerful boss who *was* a linguist and professional translator lol). So there will be some variability in how guys in different cities (not to mention different generational cohorts) talk, though as you note, calling a guy a “crew boss” is actually a more accurate direct translation than calling him a “captain”. The other level is that, once we get ahold of verbatim attestations from actual Chicago LCN member, they did not, in fact, substantively talk differently than guys in other Families, though the street-level lingo among hangers-on, associates, etc., varied by locality.

B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2025 6:36 pm Phenomenal work as always.

It's always good to see it pointed out too that even though these decine have a strong geographic component, they weren't necessarily limited to one central geographic area.

Just a note about the interchangeable use of "capo" and "boss" -- I don't think people realize "boss" is the actual translation of capo. Capodecina = boss of ten, capofamiglia = boss of a Family, and so on.

In the past, some seemed to see Chicago's use of "boss" for what we would normally call "captains" as some kind of unique organizational distinction when in reality they are using a more accurate translation of the term "capo". The Italian word for "captain" is capitano and obviously they share the same root but "capo" literally translates to "head" and is the Italian word for "boss".

Snakes wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 1:08 pm

chin_gigante wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 12:59 pm I was re-reading Nick Calabrese’s testimony today and I got to this excerpt about a juice loan dispute in the mid-1980s involving Cicero and Marco D’Amico. Do you think the ‘Mike Cerno’ and ‘Sal’ are Sarno and Cataudella? Calabrese identifies them as juice loan agents belonging to Johnny Monteleone as of the mid-1980s.

Q Now, Mr Calabrese, we were talking about Jim Van, that account, and apparently there was some sort of dispute with that particular juice customer.
A Yes, him and Joe Urgo, they were partner.
Q Right. And what was the nature of the dispute?
A The problem was that they not only had money from us, but they owed money to guys from Cicero.
Q Who did they owe in Cicero?
A A guy named Mike Cerno.
Q Do you remember Sal’s last name?
A No, I don’t recall his last name. I met him a few times. I know his brother.
Q Who’s his brother?
A A guy named Nick.
Q And Sal and Mike Cerno were the juice agents I guess for the Cicero crew?
A They were for Johnny Apes. They worked for Johnny Apes.
…
Q What was the nature of the dispute, Mr Calabrese?
A The dispute was that they not only owed them money, they owed them I think 60,000, they owed us a total of 20,000. So one night Marco, D’Marco, reaches out and I go meet him at Armin’s [Armand’s?] Pizza.
Q And who is this person Marco?
A He was around Johnny Bananas, Johnny DiFronzo, and he was a bookmaker and give out juice loans. Well, this Jimmy Vandragen was one of his agents for football; in other words, he used to turn his action to Marco’s guys. I went to see him and he said, ‘this kid’s got a big problem, him and his friend, Joey Urso, because they owe these guys from Cicero $60,000.’
Q About when was this?
A Sometime in the middle ‘80s. The bottom line was –
A Let me interrupt you. Who was present for the meeting with Marco?
A Just me, Marco, and this kid, Jimmy Vandragan.
Q How was this resolved, this dispute?
A It was resolved by Marco paying me the 20,000 off, and he says, ‘if he ever comes again to get money, don’t give it to him.’

Yes, it's them. Sal has a brother named Nick who is also an Outfit figure. Monteleone seemed to have some type of working status with both the Cicero and Chinatown crews at this time period, as he was working with guys from both crews at this time period. I'm glad you brought this up as I don't remember this from Nick's testimony.

chin_gigante wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 12:59 pm I was re-reading Nick Calabrese’s testimony today and I got to this excerpt about a juice loan dispute in the mid-1980s involving Cicero and Marco D’Amico. Do you think the ‘Mike Cerno’ and ‘Sal’ are Sarno and Cataudella? Calabrese identifies them as juice loan agents belonging to Johnny Monteleone as of the mid-1980s.

Q Now, Mr Calabrese, we were talking about Jim Van, that account, and apparently there was some sort of dispute with that particular juice customer.
A Yes, him and Joe Urgo, they were partner.
Q Right. And what was the nature of the dispute?
A The problem was that they not only had money from us, but they owed money to guys from Cicero.
Q Who did they owe in Cicero?
A A guy named Mike Cerno.
Q Do you remember Sal’s last name?
A No, I don’t recall his last name. I met him a few times. I know his brother.
Q Who’s his brother?
A A guy named Nick.
Q And Sal and Mike Cerno were the juice agents I guess for the Cicero crew?
A They were for Johnny Apes. They worked for Johnny Apes.
…
Q What was the nature of the dispute, Mr Calabrese?
A The dispute was that they not only owed them money, they owed them I think 60,000, they owed us a total of 20,000. So one night Marco, D’Marco, reaches out and I go meet him at Armin’s [Armand’s?] Pizza.
Q And who is this person Marco?
A He was around Johnny Bananas, Johnny DiFronzo, and he was a bookmaker and give out juice loans. Well, this Jimmy Vandragen was one of his agents for football; in other words, he used to turn his action to Marco’s guys. I went to see him and he said, ‘this kid’s got a big problem, him and his friend, Joey Urso, because they owe these guys from Cicero $60,000.’
Q About when was this?
A Sometime in the middle ‘80s. The bottom line was –
A Let me interrupt you. Who was present for the meeting with Marco?
A Just me, Marco, and this kid, Jimmy Vandragan.
Q How was this resolved, this dispute?
A It was resolved by Marco paying me the 20,000 off, and he says, ‘if he ever comes again to get money, don’t give it to him.’

Q Now, Mr Calabrese, we were talking about Jim Van, that account, and apparently there was some sort of dispute with that particular juice customer.
A Yes, him and Joe Urgo, they were partner.
Q Right. And what was the nature of the dispute?
A The problem was that they not only had money from us, but they owed money to guys from Cicero.
Q Who did they owe in Cicero?
A A guy named Mike Cerno.
Q Do you remember Sal’s last name?
A No, I don’t recall his last name. I met him a few times. I know his brother.
Q Who’s his brother?
A A guy named Nick.
Q And Sal and Mike Cerno were the juice agents I guess for the Cicero crew?
A They were for Johnny Apes. They worked for Johnny Apes.
…
Q What was the nature of the dispute, Mr Calabrese?
A The dispute was that they not only owed them money, they owed them I think 60,000, they owed us a total of 20,000. So one night Marco, D’Marco, reaches out and I go meet him at Armin’s [Armand’s?] Pizza.
Q And who is this person Marco?
A He was around Johnny Bananas, Johnny DiFronzo, and he was a bookmaker and give out juice loans. Well, this Jimmy Vandragen was one of his agents for football; in other words, he used to turn his action to Marco’s guys. I went to see him and he said, ‘this kid’s got a big problem, him and his friend, Joey Urso, because they owe these guys from Cicero $60,000.’
Q About when was this?
A Sometime in the middle ‘80s. The bottom line was –
A Let me interrupt you. Who was present for the meeting with Marco?
A Just me, Marco, and this kid, Jimmy Vandragan.
Q How was this resolved, this dispute?
A It was resolved by Marco paying me the 20,000 off, and he says, ‘if he ever comes again to get money, don’t give it to him.’