THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **Chaps** » Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:26 pm

Unless I'm wrong it's Alto's club

by **NorthBuffalo** » Wed Feb 05, 2025 6:31 am

Great thread guys - Johnny/Polack/Don etc. really great background on this.

by **PolackTony** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:51 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:31 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:57 pm Ah, good call. Hadn’t thought of Jimmy Alto given that the club was closely associated with Pete DeFeo, but maybe Altomari controlled it previously.
Not that I have any real knowledge if it was Jimmy’s club at any point but it being ‘closely associated’ with DeFeo doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been Jimmys all along. Sometimes if a powerful guy starts hanging around a certain place a lot people get the misconception it’s theirs. For example in my old neighborhood there was the son of a certain Colombo soldier who was doing his best to get attention from wiseguys in general, he wanted nothing more than to build up his rep to eventually get straightened out. He partners with this older guy Jimmy the Hat who knows the gambling business and they open a cafe. The back room has card tables and on weekends it’s like a mini casino back there. Nicky Corozzo takes a liking to hanging out in the front sipping coffee and meeting people (Nicky in the old days had a club of his own right across the street from this place) after a few months of this people are referring to the place like it’s Nicky’s. He just over shadowed everyone and people who didn’t know better believed it was his place. Long story short with Nicky there all the time players slowly stopped coming because they knew the Feds would be watching him and thus watching the cafe. The business dried up and eventually they closed the place.

Good story to illustrate. Something similar could well have happened with Altomari and DeFeo and we wouldn’t have known any better without an inside source telling us how it really shook out.

by **BeatiPaoli** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:37 pm

To Everyone: Thank you all for the detailed and interesting information! I feel vindicated placing the question here, in that I received substantive responses to the question.

Regards,

BeatiPaoli

by **johnny_scootch** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:31 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:57 pm Ah, good call. Hadn’t thought of Jimmy Alto given that the club was closely associated with Pete DeFeo, but maybe Altomari controlled it previously.

Not that I have any real knowledge if it was Jimmy’s club at any point but it being ‘closely associated’ with DeFeo doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been Jimmys all along. Sometimes if a powerful guy starts hanging around a certain place a lot people get the misconception it’s theirs. For example in my old neighborhood there was the son of a certain Colombo soldier who was doing his best to get attention from wiseguys in general, he wanted nothing more than to build up his rep to eventually get straightened out. He partners with this older guy Jimmy the Hat who knows the gambling business and they open a cafe. The back room has card tables and on weekends it’s like a mini casino back there. Nicky Corozzo takes a liking to hanging out in the front sipping coffee and meeting people (Nicky in the old days had a club of his own right across the street from this place) after a few months of this people are referring to the place like it’s Nicky’s. He just over shadowed everyone and people who didn’t know better believed it was his place. Long story short with Nicky there all the time players slowly stopped coming because they knew the Feds would be watching him and thus watching the cafe. The business dried up and eventually they closed the place.

by **PolackTony** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:57 pm

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:52 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:19 am
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:57 pm That I don’t know.
My guess is that it’s just a sort of general evocation of chivalric themes that we know were important to the mafia back in the day. In Italian, the phrase “alto cavaliere” means a “high/elevated knight”, but this isn’t a formal noble/chivalric title in Italy or anything like that. The Wikipedia entry for the Ravenite claims that the name derived from the order of St James of Altopascio, with no citation or evidence to support this. We know that Wikipedia is rife with bullshit when it comes to the mob, and as someone else pointed out, the same entry also claims that the Ravenite and Alto Knights were the same club.

If there was a more specific reason for the name, it would seem to be opaque.

I always guessed it had something to do with Jimmy Alto, I thought maybe he took it over after it was Cafe Royale and changed the name.

That was Jimmys neighborhood and the name thing just seemed like too much of a coincidence.

Ah, good call. Hadn’t thought of Jimmy Alto given that the club was closely associated with Pete DeFeo, but maybe Altomari controlled it previously.

by **johnny_scootch** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:52 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:19 am
johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:57 pm That I don’t know.
My guess is that it’s just a sort of general evocation of chivalric themes that we know were important to the mafia back in the day. In Italian, the phrase “alto cavaliere” means a “high/elevated knight”, but this isn’t a formal noble/chivalric title in Italy or anything like that. The Wikipedia entry for the Ravenite claims that the name derived from the order of St James of Altopascio, with no citation or evidence to support this. We know that Wikipedia is rife with bullshit when it comes to the mob, and as someone else pointed out, the same entry also claims that the Ravenite and Alto Knights were the same club.

If there was a more specific reason for the name, it would seem to be opaque.

I always guessed it had something to do with Jimmy Alto, I thought maybe he took it over after it was Cafe Royale and changed the name.

That was Jimmys neighborhood and the name thing just seemed like too much of a coincidence.

by **DonPeppino386** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:36 am

In 1957 and 1958 Senator John F. Kennedy conducted hearings before the select committee on improper activities in the labor or management field. Among those questioned were investigator Sherman Willse and Vito Genovese. The Alto Knights club was briefly mentioned.

Vito saying nothing, as can be expected.

by **PolackTony** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:19 am

johnny_scootch wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:57 pm That I don’t know.

My guess is that it’s just a sort of general evocation of chivalric themes that we know were important to the mafia back in the day. In Italian, the phrase “alto cavaliere” means a “high/elevated knight”, but this isn’t a formal noble/chivalric title in Italy or anything like that. The Wikipedia entry for the Ravenite claims that the name derived from the order of St James of Altopascio, with no citation or evidence to support this. We know that Wikipedia is rife with bullshit when it comes to the mob, and as someone else pointed out, the same entry also claims that the Ravenite and Alto Knights were the same club.

If there was a more specific reason for the name, it would seem to be opaque.

by **Chaps** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:17 am

There's always been much confusion regarding the Alto Knights Social Club. Many, including the site Infamous NY claim that was the original name of the Ravenite:

https://infamousnewyork.com/tag/mafia-social-clubs/

It was actually located at 86 Kenmare Street at the corner of Mulberry. It was a Genovese club. The misinformation about the Ravenite originally being named that way was from the book Goombata by John Cummings And Ernest Volkman.

The Ravenite was at 247 Mulberry.

by **OmarSantista** » Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:13 am

The original title was going to be WiseGuys

by **johnny_scootch** » Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:57 pm

That I don’t know.

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:44 pm

Great info JS.
Do we know where it comes from?

by **johnny_scootch** » Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:01 pm

Alto Knights was a Luciano family social club on Kenmare and Mulberry St.

by **BeatiPaoli** » Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:52 pm

To Everyone: Forgive me. I realize this should be in the TV/Movies section (where I initially wrote this), but this is somewhat timely, since the movie is to be released next month.

Respectfully, where did the title "Alto Knights" come from? I am, for the most part, well aware, as everyone on this Forum, the relationship dynamic between Genovese and Costello. However, I don't get the title reference???

Regards,

BeatiPaoli

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