THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **jmack** » Thu Nov 21, 2024 5:15 am

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:19 pm Gravarno thinks Watts is a rat FWIW

It was alleged that he proffered. I don’t think I’ve seen the 302 from it though like we did Gotti Jr’s.

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:20 pm

Danny Marino still alive/active?

Haven't heard that name in ages. Used to be a power.

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:19 pm

Gravarno thinks Watts is a rat FWIW

by **Nasabeak** » Wed Nov 20, 2024 3:59 pm

Paul may have been thinking “I’ve got 2 cases, soon to be three or four, I can’t be whacking a guy rn.”

Btw, the number of high ranking guys “in the know” or in the plot to kill Castellano was much lower than those who didn’t know. Popular narratives make it seem like his entire family hated him but just off the top of my head

Knew of the plot:

John Gotti, Frank DeCicco, Gene Gotti, Angelo Ruggerio, Salvatore Gravano, Robert DiBernardo, Joe Watts, Joseph Armone, Joe N. Gallo

Didn’t:

Danny Marino,
Tommy Gambino,
Tommy Bilotti (and his crew)
Toddo Aurello
John Gambino
Joe Butch Corrao,
Jimmy Brown Failla,
Ettore Zappi
Neil Dellacroce,
Mario Traina
Patsy Conte

Literally around only 7-15 guys were in on it, versus say 200 odd guys not or who wouldn’t be supportive of it.

by **jmack** » Thu Nov 14, 2024 7:00 am

Also, as someone else said, he participated in killing his boss. Someone willing to violate that cardinal rule may be willing to give information from time to time. Look at Harry Riccobene in Philly. He went to war against a boss and it was later proven he was an informant for years. Look at Bill Bonanno. He and his father fought against the commission and it later was proven that he was an informant. If you’re willing to break one rule you are probably willing to break more.

The fact that Paul didn’t believe it doesn’t prove anything. I think most people would argue Chin was at least as shrewd as Paul and he chose not to whack Peter Savino, even after Gas and Vic told him he was an informant. Who knows what Chin or Paul was thinking? There’s no way to tell. I just look at what makes the most sense and what is probable.

by **jmack** » Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:51 am

Pmac2 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:15 am I don't think deccico would give up a meeting he was attending. and the paperwork the guy gus got ahold of no one's ever seen and big Paul seen it and declared it not worthy or maybe not explained who giving the info. Also the fbi lied alot in there paperwork to get court orders wirwtaps . I mean people came out saying carmine persico was working for the fbi to. if you understood the paperwork you quickly realize it wasn't the case. and they even said Neil delacrose. may have been informant. only ones I leaning to big names. bill bonanno. carmine the doctor maybe said to much probaly when approached by a agent and larry Gallo. of course scarpa

Of course he would give up the meeting location he was attending if he was an informant. Why wouldn’t he? He’s involved in the mob, that’s why he’s an informant. I don’t disagree with the rest of your post too strenuously. While I think the FBI is very corrupt, this information came from the SDNY office and wasn’t leaked by the FBI. I’ve also not seen a situation where the FBI would purposely label someone who is alive as a snitch, knowing it would cost him his life. I do believe the FBI leaked the fake story about Dellacroce being a snitch, but that was after he died. I also come back to the fact that Sclafani knew exactly who DeCicco was and how well he was respected. I doubt he took that lightly. He knew it was a DeCicco or him situation once he brought it to light. One of them was going to go. I’m sure he put a lot of thought into it. Again, it’s almost impossible to know one way or the other, but I put the percentage above 50%.

by **Brovelli** » Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:06 am

Pmac2 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:15 am I don't think deccico would give up a meeting he was attending. and the paperwork the guy gus got ahold of no one's ever seen and big Paul seen it and declared it not worthy or maybe not explained who giving the info. Also the fbi lied alot in there paperwork to get court orders wirwtaps . I mean people came out saying carmine persico was working for the fbi to. if you understood the paperwork you quickly realize it wasn't the case. and they even said Neil delacrose. may have been informant. only ones I leaning to big names. bill bonanno. carmine the doctor maybe said to much probaly when approached by a agent and larry Gallo. of course scarpa

It sounds like Sclafani’s accusation is the strongest reason. The guy lost his life over it (I don’t know the story so not sure what other factors were involved) but it’s a big accusation to then get killed for

by **Pmac2** » Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:15 am

I don't think deccico would give up a meeting he was attending. and the paperwork the guy gus got ahold of no one's ever seen and big Paul seen it and declared it not worthy or maybe not explained who giving the info. Also the fbi lied alot in there paperwork to get court orders wirwtaps . I mean people came out saying carmine persico was working for the fbi to. if you understood the paperwork you quickly realize it wasn't the case. and they even said Neil delacrose. may have been informant. only ones I leaning to big names. bill bonanno. carmine the doctor maybe said to much probaly when approached by a agent and larry Gallo. of course scarpa

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Wed Nov 13, 2024 2:54 pm

jmack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:46 am
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:48 am
jmack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:14 am
I’m not aware of sclafani’s information ever being proven wrong and he was getting information straight from the Southern District of NY where his mother in law worked. She was actually indicted in a rico case because of it.
This poses more questions to yours than it answers. Surely only VERY few specialized FBI agents would know the identity of CI's. Especially one such as important as DeCicco.

I have no idea what position she had but I'd have thought only 2/3 agents on the squad and their supervisor would know DeCicco was a CI.
I don’t disagree, but she had information on other informants that proved to be correct in the past. Again, it’s not hard facts, but I lean toward it being true.

Concur. It is looking more likely than not considering the above.

Do we have a possible reason/motivation for DeCicco being a CI? Was he ever caught up in large drug deals, murders he was looking at walking from. I don't know much about his history. Usually it takes threat of serious time to roll.

by **jmack** » Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:46 am

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:48 am
jmack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:14 am
I’m not aware of sclafani’s information ever being proven wrong and he was getting information straight from the Southern District of NY where his mother in law worked. She was actually indicted in a rico case because of it.
This poses more questions to yours than it answers. Surely only VERY few specialized FBI agents would know the identity of CI's. Especially one such as important as DeCicco.

I have no idea what position she had but I'd have thought only 2/3 agents on the squad and their supervisor would know DeCicco was a CI.

I don’t disagree, but she had information on other informants that proved to be correct in the past. Again, it’s not hard facts, but I lean toward it being true.

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:48 am

jmack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:14 am
I’m not aware of sclafani’s information ever being proven wrong and he was getting information straight from the Southern District of NY where his mother in law worked. She was actually indicted in a rico case because of it.

This poses more questions to yours than it answers. Surely only VERY few specialized FBI agents would know the identity of CI's. Especially one such as important as DeCicco.

I have no idea what position she had but I'd have thought only 2/3 agents on the squad and their supervisor would know DeCicco was a CI.

by **jmack** » Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:14 am

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:19 am
jmack wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:28 am
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:20 pm
jmack wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:52 pm
Cheech wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:06 am If Decicco was a rat you would think the Castellano murder gets thwarted.
Eh, debatable. Exhibit 1 is Scarpa and all of his nonsense while being a CI. Exhibit 2 is the 84 Commission meeting location being given up. He organized that meeting and is one of the few who could give up the location. Exhibit 3 would be Gus Salfani. He gave reliable information in the past. He made an allegation that he know could have got him killed. I doubt he took it lightly. I’m not saying he certainly was a CI, but I think the odds lean that way.
This may sound dumb, happy to concede if it is, but why couldn't the 84 commission meet have been discovered due either a tail, a phone tap or a wire???

Why does it 'have' to be through a rat.

There's 3 VERY plausible alternatives which are completely ignored.

And when you take the 84 meet out of the equation, what's left that DeCicco was a rat? Salfani?
The informant gave the information to FBI agent Joseph F. O’Brien, who was on the Gambino squad. Unlike the bug in Castellano’s house, there was no need to shade the truth to protect trade secrets. Is it definitive, not at all. For me it does have a ring of truth though.
Good info. Cheers j.

Absolutely, brother. Again, it’s not a sure thing, but this coupled with the Sclafani information is suspect. I’m not aware of sclafani’s information ever being proven wrong and he was getting information straight from the Southern District of NY where his mother in law worked. She was actually indicted in a rico case because of it.

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:19 am

jmack wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:28 am
SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:20 pm
jmack wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:52 pm
Cheech wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:06 am If Decicco was a rat you would think the Castellano murder gets thwarted.
Eh, debatable. Exhibit 1 is Scarpa and all of his nonsense while being a CI. Exhibit 2 is the 84 Commission meeting location being given up. He organized that meeting and is one of the few who could give up the location. Exhibit 3 would be Gus Salfani. He gave reliable information in the past. He made an allegation that he know could have got him killed. I doubt he took it lightly. I’m not saying he certainly was a CI, but I think the odds lean that way.
This may sound dumb, happy to concede if it is, but why couldn't the 84 commission meet have been discovered due either a tail, a phone tap or a wire???

Why does it 'have' to be through a rat.

There's 3 VERY plausible alternatives which are completely ignored.

And when you take the 84 meet out of the equation, what's left that DeCicco was a rat? Salfani?
The informant gave the information to FBI agent Joseph F. O’Brien, who was on the Gambino squad. Unlike the bug in Castellano’s house, there was no need to shade the truth to protect trade secrets. Is it definitive, not at all. For me it does have a ring of truth though.

Good info. Cheers j.

by **jmack** » Tue Nov 12, 2024 2:28 am

SonnyBlackstein wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:20 pm
jmack wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:52 pm
Cheech wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:06 am If Decicco was a rat you would think the Castellano murder gets thwarted.
Eh, debatable. Exhibit 1 is Scarpa and all of his nonsense while being a CI. Exhibit 2 is the 84 Commission meeting location being given up. He organized that meeting and is one of the few who could give up the location. Exhibit 3 would be Gus Salfani. He gave reliable information in the past. He made an allegation that he know could have got him killed. I doubt he took it lightly. I’m not saying he certainly was a CI, but I think the odds lean that way.
This may sound dumb, happy to concede if it is, but why couldn't the 84 commission meet have been discovered due either a tail, a phone tap or a wire???

Why does it 'have' to be through a rat.

There's 3 VERY plausible alternatives which are completely ignored.

And when you take the 84 meet out of the equation, what's left that DeCicco was a rat? Salfani?

The informant gave the information to FBI agent Joseph F. O’Brien, who was on the Gambino squad. Unlike the bug in Castellano’s house, there was no need to shade the truth to protect trade secrets. Is it definitive, not at all. For me it does have a ring of truth though.

by **SonnyBlackstein** » Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:20 pm

jmack wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 1:52 pm
Cheech wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:06 am If Decicco was a rat you would think the Castellano murder gets thwarted.
Eh, debatable. Exhibit 1 is Scarpa and all of his nonsense while being a CI. Exhibit 2 is the 84 Commission meeting location being given up. He organized that meeting and is one of the few who could give up the location. Exhibit 3 would be Gus Salfani. He gave reliable information in the past. He made an allegation that he know could have got him killed. I doubt he took it lightly. I’m not saying he certainly was a CI, but I think the odds lean that way.

This may sound dumb, happy to concede if it is, but why couldn't the 84 commission meet have been discovered due either a tail, a phone tap or a wire???

Why does it 'have' to be through a rat.

There's 3 VERY plausible alternatives which are completely ignored.

And when you take the 84 meet out of the equation, what's left that DeCicco was a rat? Salfani?

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