General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

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Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by PolackTony » Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:40 pm

Chin and B already said it, but admin positions in a Family can go unfilled for years at times. We can expect this to be more likely when a Family is under duress due to internal conflict or intense LE pressure. The latter was certainly the case with Chicago in the 90s, as the organization was reeling from a series of major cases that seriously damaged the administration and senior membership in the period.

Having said that, Chicago could very well have had an official underboss during the period in question (at least at some point in that interval), and we just wouldn’t know. It’s sort of a cliche, but important to keep in mind that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially relevant here given that we only have one made member from this period who testified, and he was a soldier and already off the street during this period. Nick C didn’t discuss the admin and structure of the Chicago outfit at the time of his defection during his testimony for Family Secrets, as this was not relevant to the specific charges (e.g., older murders) being tried in that case. He may have discussed these things a bit with the FBI when he was debriefed, but we have only seen a tiny snippet of his 302s, so who knows what all he actually told them. We are well justified in assuming that there were a number of things going on with Chicago that we otherwise have no clue about. And unless a guy who was made during that period flips and fills us in on what was happening, we may well never know for sure what exactly was happening. As always, the subject of Chicago is a very challenging one due to the lack of solid evidence from made members.

It’s also worth noting that a Family having a formal Consiglio doesn’t imply that they necessarily wouldn’t have an official underboss, or vice versa. These are two separate questions. A Family can have a full admin and these guys sit on the council. For example, we know from Chicago CI Teddy DeRose that Chicago used a council during Giancana’s tenure as boss (The FBI cited DeRose as calling it a “ruling committee”) and we also know that Frank Ferraro was official underboss for Giancana, succeeded in that position after his death by Battaglia.

We’re in the dark as to whether Chicago maintained the use of a formal council like this after the mid-70s, but this question then gets us back into the “absence of evidence” problem. Aiuppa may have done away with it, but we really don’t know this for a fact. Personally, I find it unlikely that a formal council was in place in the late 90s/2000s, as from the little that we do know, attrition and LE pressure had degraded the leadership of the organization to the point that I just don’t see there having been the personnel to form, or the need to have, one. This was a period when Chicago was likely to have been restructuring in the face of serious threats to the coherence of the organization (basically, a protracted crisis since Strawman in the 1980s). If there wasn’t a formal underboss for a number of years during this period, this would, again, not be unexpected in that light and the factors involved there, if this were the case, I would think would have mitigated against a more complex administrative apparatus like a formal council.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:50 pm

I'm pretty sure the Gambinos went a number of years without naming an official underboss as well after Gravano flipped.

The Colombos didn't elect an official consigliere for around 5 years after Joe Buffa died in 1959, just another example. Sometimes these positions don't get immediately filled.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by chin_gigante » Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:13 pm

VC2 wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 2:43 pm a question for those in the know as a way to get thread back on track. i apologize in advance if this has all been gone over previous. i have been utilizing the search function to try to find answers to some outfit questions but this one question i was not able to find any thread or part of thread where this was discussed, if anyone has a link that would be appreciated, here i go.

what is the belief that for a time (1997-2014) -+ the chicago outfit did not have an UNDERBOSS? and by this i mean it was no longer part of admin. i recently posted (on gbb) a theory/thought, which i believe is shared by some on here of the existence of a consiglio or ruling council as part of the chicago outfit admin. the belief for some, with evidence is that this did exist for a time in outfit, perhaps in 1965-1975 era.

my contention is that it is a possibility that some form of this was re-constituted after 1997 for a period of time. my thinking would be that when john difronzo turned down the position of boss after carlisis death, january 1997, he also vacated the UB post in favor of a ruling council in its place.

there also is an utter lack of quality verified evidence that any other person filled the UB role. there is some evidence it was al tornabene under monteleone, or maybe it was andriacchi. i have long held that andriacchi could have been UB since 1997, alas there is scant evidence for this belief. then anthony zizzo was glossed with title under james marcello, wrongly it appears, then andriacchi again or maybe cataudella, or inendino or or or.
maybe the fact that we cant, despite our best efforts come up with a timeline of who was UB, is because no one member was.

my belief (with zero evidence mind you) is that if the outfit did re-constitute a ruling council post 1997 this would have removed the need for an UB.
i believe that the boss (monteleone) along with the ruling council and the capos of 5 remaining crews were more than enough to deal with what was a vastly diminished crime family.

any thoughts, comments or critiques appreciated.
It's not without precedent. The exact situation you're describing happened repeatedly in the Bonanno family from the 1980s to the 2000s.

After Carmine Galante was killed, official underboss Nick Marangello was demoted from his position and it was left vacant for several years. While official boss Rusty Rastelli was in prison, the family was run on the street by the acting boss (Sally Ferrugia) and official consigliere (Steve Vitabile) with assistance from a panel of two captains (initially Joe Massino and George Sciascia). The underboss position remained vacant from 1979 to 1984, when Rastelli gave it to Massino.

From 1987 to 1992, while there was a full official administration (Rastelli as boss, Massino as underboss, Anthony Spero as consigliere), Rastelli and Massino being in jail meant on the street the family was left in the hands of just one administration member. Sal Vitale and (briefly) Louie Attanasio (then captains) were appointed to a panel to help Spero run the family.

In the 1990s and 2000s, the consigliere position was left effectively vacant. From 1994 onwards, Spero was unable to function because he was in and out of prison, house arrest and supervised release (before eventually being locked up for the rest of his life). To fill this gap in the administration, Massino appointed a couple of captains to a panel to help official underboss Sal Vitale run the family. Several captains sat on this panel at different times, with Massino swapping them out because they kept getting arrested. The panel was expanded to feature three captains (Tony Urso, Joe Cammarano Sr, Richie Cantarella) when Vitale was under house arrest and unable to function.

Massino was very conservative when it came to appointing members to official or even acting administration positions. When he came home from prison he made Vitale the underboss but that was it. It wasn't until late 2002 that (anticipating he would soon be indicted), he made Tony Urso acting consigliere and Joe Cammarano Sr acting underboss.

The official underboss position also appears to have been left vacant for several years after Vitale flipped in 2003. There were a few acting underbosses (Cammarano Sr, Michael Mancuso, Nicky Santora), acting bosses, acting consiglieres and panels, but as far as I can tell nobody became official underboss until Joe Cammarano Jr was elected to the position in 2015.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by VC2 » Mon Jun 02, 2025 2:43 pm

a question for those in the know as a way to get thread back on track. i apologize in advance if this has all been gone over previous. i have been utilizing the search function to try to find answers to some outfit questions but this one question i was not able to find any thread or part of thread where this was discussed, if anyone has a link that would be appreciated, here i go.

what is the belief that for a time (1997-2014) -+ the chicago outfit did not have an UNDERBOSS? and by this i mean it was no longer part of admin. i recently posted (on gbb) a theory/thought, which i believe is shared by some on here of the existence of a consiglio or ruling council as part of the chicago outfit admin. the belief for some, with evidence is that this did exist for a time in outfit, perhaps in 1965-1975 era.

my contention is that it is a possibility that some form of this was re-constituted after 1997 for a period of time. my thinking would be that when john difronzo turned down the position of boss after carlisis death, january 1997, he also vacated the UB post in favor of a ruling council in its place.

there also is an utter lack of quality verified evidence that any other person filled the UB role. there is some evidence it was al tornabene under monteleone, or maybe it was andriacchi. i have long held that andriacchi could have been UB since 1997, alas there is scant evidence for this belief. then anthony zizzo was glossed with title under james marcello, wrongly it appears, then andriacchi again or maybe cataudella, or inendino or or or.
maybe the fact that we cant, despite our best efforts come up with a timeline of who was UB, is because no one member was.

my belief (with zero evidence mind you) is that if the outfit did re-constitute a ruling council post 1997 this would have removed the need for an UB.
i believe that the boss (monteleone) along with the ruling council and the capos of 5 remaining crews were more than enough to deal with what was a vastly diminished crime family.

any thoughts, comments or critiques appreciated.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by NorthBuffalo » Mon Jun 02, 2025 1:15 pm

Patrickgold wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 9:08 am
NorthBuffalo wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:57 am
Patrickgold wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:29 am
NorthBuffalo wrote: Sun Jun 01, 2025 4:31 pm
chin_gigante wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:39 am
Ivan wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 10:26 am
Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:
Yeah I think it's gotten unacceptably dumb and I'm not anywhere near a serious/hardcore researcher as you. Moderators really need to step in.
Should be getting better soon. Mods don't have the ability to ban users, only move/lock/delete posts and issue warnings. We can vote on who to ban but only Sol has the ability to actually do it. When Sol's away we can't get rid of anyone.
I want to ensure it's very clear I am not mimicking a single other individual on this forum - I'm pretty sure you need to use email addresses to sign up so it's not that hard to tell, which has always amazed me about these 'accusations.' I've had multiple posts, commended a lot of great research, shared multiple first time photos with familial consent and have no idea why I'm not 'made.' I mean I together with Polack and others pretty much (80%) identified an Outfit guy living in Witness Protection (Caliendo) in Oklahoma. I've shared photos of multiple guys for the first time - Snooky Morgano, Pete LaBalestra, Angelo Damico, etc. - imagine if I had access to the photos thread.

I know who RushStreet is from GangsterBB and would like to see him banned as well. The only good poster there on Chicago aside from the old ones like Pete and Ladri and Snakes is ChiTown who was SolarSolano here (not fucking me!). :twisted:
Did we ever figure out who Caliendo testified against? Sorry if it’s been mentioned already. I know he was in the Cicero crew.
I never found evidence he testified in court, but that doesn't mean he wasn't central in the indictments of his father/uncle as well as Sal Cautadella (I believe they all took plea deals) - as well as Frank Panno and others who were indicted later on for the same type of prostitution rackets. I also think he was likely consulted about the Robert Oliver murder, which was raised during family secrets, given his proximity to Petrocelli and others.
That’s interesting. Have any articles been found about him flipping?
A 1999 Chicago Tribune article on a crooked lawyer noted Vito Caliendo and his nephew had turned over records of the attorney and other politicians in a Chicago Heights brothel - they may have testified against politicians, etc.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/1999/01/ ... fortune-5/

There is also this rabbit hole to go down - with multiple people who worked at their pizza parlor saying they were the Caliendos:
https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php? ... d73eac37a8

I think the most telling thing is that these Chicago guys suddenly wind up in Oklahoma City - no one goes there from Chicago to vacation. I just think its too coincidental to have not had FBI involvement or some form of witness protection, etc. Now factor in the new names (Cusitino).

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Patrickgold » Mon Jun 02, 2025 9:08 am

NorthBuffalo wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:57 am
Patrickgold wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:29 am
NorthBuffalo wrote: Sun Jun 01, 2025 4:31 pm
chin_gigante wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:39 am
Ivan wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 10:26 am
Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:
Yeah I think it's gotten unacceptably dumb and I'm not anywhere near a serious/hardcore researcher as you. Moderators really need to step in.
Should be getting better soon. Mods don't have the ability to ban users, only move/lock/delete posts and issue warnings. We can vote on who to ban but only Sol has the ability to actually do it. When Sol's away we can't get rid of anyone.
I want to ensure it's very clear I am not mimicking a single other individual on this forum - I'm pretty sure you need to use email addresses to sign up so it's not that hard to tell, which has always amazed me about these 'accusations.' I've had multiple posts, commended a lot of great research, shared multiple first time photos with familial consent and have no idea why I'm not 'made.' I mean I together with Polack and others pretty much (80%) identified an Outfit guy living in Witness Protection (Caliendo) in Oklahoma. I've shared photos of multiple guys for the first time - Snooky Morgano, Pete LaBalestra, Angelo Damico, etc. - imagine if I had access to the photos thread.

I know who RushStreet is from GangsterBB and would like to see him banned as well. The only good poster there on Chicago aside from the old ones like Pete and Ladri and Snakes is ChiTown who was SolarSolano here (not fucking me!). :twisted:
Did we ever figure out who Caliendo testified against? Sorry if it’s been mentioned already. I know he was in the Cicero crew.
I never found evidence he testified in court, but that doesn't mean he wasn't central in the indictments of his father/uncle as well as Sal Cautadella (I believe they all took plea deals) - as well as Frank Panno and others who were indicted later on for the same type of prostitution rackets. I also think he was likely consulted about the Robert Oliver murder, which was raised during family secrets, given his proximity to Petrocelli and others.
That’s interesting. Have any articles been found about him flipping?

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by NorthBuffalo » Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:57 am

Patrickgold wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:29 am
NorthBuffalo wrote: Sun Jun 01, 2025 4:31 pm
chin_gigante wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:39 am
Ivan wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 10:26 am
Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:
Yeah I think it's gotten unacceptably dumb and I'm not anywhere near a serious/hardcore researcher as you. Moderators really need to step in.
Should be getting better soon. Mods don't have the ability to ban users, only move/lock/delete posts and issue warnings. We can vote on who to ban but only Sol has the ability to actually do it. When Sol's away we can't get rid of anyone.
I want to ensure it's very clear I am not mimicking a single other individual on this forum - I'm pretty sure you need to use email addresses to sign up so it's not that hard to tell, which has always amazed me about these 'accusations.' I've had multiple posts, commended a lot of great research, shared multiple first time photos with familial consent and have no idea why I'm not 'made.' I mean I together with Polack and others pretty much (80%) identified an Outfit guy living in Witness Protection (Caliendo) in Oklahoma. I've shared photos of multiple guys for the first time - Snooky Morgano, Pete LaBalestra, Angelo Damico, etc. - imagine if I had access to the photos thread.

I know who RushStreet is from GangsterBB and would like to see him banned as well. The only good poster there on Chicago aside from the old ones like Pete and Ladri and Snakes is ChiTown who was SolarSolano here (not fucking me!). :twisted:
Did we ever figure out who Caliendo testified against? Sorry if it’s been mentioned already. I know he was in the Cicero crew.
I never found evidence he testified in court, but that doesn't mean he wasn't central in the indictments of his father/uncle as well as Sal Cautadella (I believe they all took plea deals) - as well as Frank Panno and others who were indicted later on for the same type of prostitution rackets. I also think he was likely consulted about the Robert Oliver murder, which was raised during family secrets, given his proximity to Petrocelli and others.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Patrickgold » Mon Jun 02, 2025 5:29 am

NorthBuffalo wrote: Sun Jun 01, 2025 4:31 pm
chin_gigante wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:39 am
Ivan wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 10:26 am
Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:
Yeah I think it's gotten unacceptably dumb and I'm not anywhere near a serious/hardcore researcher as you. Moderators really need to step in.
Should be getting better soon. Mods don't have the ability to ban users, only move/lock/delete posts and issue warnings. We can vote on who to ban but only Sol has the ability to actually do it. When Sol's away we can't get rid of anyone.
I want to ensure it's very clear I am not mimicking a single other individual on this forum - I'm pretty sure you need to use email addresses to sign up so it's not that hard to tell, which has always amazed me about these 'accusations.' I've had multiple posts, commended a lot of great research, shared multiple first time photos with familial consent and have no idea why I'm not 'made.' I mean I together with Polack and others pretty much (80%) identified an Outfit guy living in Witness Protection (Caliendo) in Oklahoma. I've shared photos of multiple guys for the first time - Snooky Morgano, Pete LaBalestra, Angelo Damico, etc. - imagine if I had access to the photos thread.

I know who RushStreet is from GangsterBB and would like to see him banned as well. The only good poster there on Chicago aside from the old ones like Pete and Ladri and Snakes is ChiTown who was SolarSolano here (not fucking me!). :twisted:
Did we ever figure out who Caliendo testified against? Sorry if it’s been mentioned already. I know he was in the Cicero crew.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by NorthBuffalo » Sun Jun 01, 2025 4:32 pm

ChiTown was SolarSolano here* - I meant Snakes was a great poster on GangsterBB as he is here. Another issue - I can't even edit prior posts.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by NorthBuffalo » Sun Jun 01, 2025 4:31 pm

chin_gigante wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 2:39 am
Ivan wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 10:26 am
Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:
Yeah I think it's gotten unacceptably dumb and I'm not anywhere near a serious/hardcore researcher as you. Moderators really need to step in.
Should be getting better soon. Mods don't have the ability to ban users, only move/lock/delete posts and issue warnings. We can vote on who to ban but only Sol has the ability to actually do it. When Sol's away we can't get rid of anyone.
I want to ensure it's very clear I am not mimicking a single other individual on this forum - I'm pretty sure you need to use email addresses to sign up so it's not that hard to tell, which has always amazed me about these 'accusations.' I've had multiple posts, commended a lot of great research, shared multiple first time photos with familial consent and have no idea why I'm not 'made.' I mean I together with Polack and others pretty much (80%) identified an Outfit guy living in Witness Protection (Caliendo) in Oklahoma. I've shared photos of multiple guys for the first time - Snooky Morgano, Pete LaBalestra, Angelo Damico, etc. - imagine if I had access to the photos thread.

I know who RushStreet is from GangsterBB and would like to see him banned as well. The only good poster there on Chicago aside from the old ones like Pete and Ladri and Snakes is ChiTown who was SolarSolano here (not fucking me!). :twisted:

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by chin_gigante » Fri May 30, 2025 2:39 am

Ivan wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 10:26 am
Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:
Yeah I think it's gotten unacceptably dumb and I'm not anywhere near a serious/hardcore researcher as you. Moderators really need to step in.
Should be getting better soon. Mods don't have the ability to ban users, only move/lock/delete posts and issue warnings. We can vote on who to ban but only Sol has the ability to actually do it. When Sol's away we can't get rid of anyone.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by B. » Thu May 29, 2025 12:48 pm

Patrickgold wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 8:24 am
Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:

Image
I’m pretty sure some of these guys are the same person and acting like they are arguing just to ruin this thread
Yep.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Ivan » Thu May 29, 2025 10:26 am

Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:
Yeah I think it's gotten unacceptably dumb and I'm not anywhere near a serious/hardcore researcher as you. Moderators really need to step in.

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by Patrickgold » Thu May 29, 2025 8:24 am

Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:

Image
I’m pretty sure some of these guys are the same person and acting like they are arguing just to ruin this thread

Re: General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

by funkster » Thu May 29, 2025 7:56 am

Snakes wrote: Thu May 29, 2025 7:21 am Me seeing what this thread has become with all of these BB and Reddit rejects:

Image
Just brutal.

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