by PolackTony » Sun Mar 09, 2025 7:04 pm
B. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 1:10 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 12:16 pm
The earliest that we can 100% confirm that Lombardo had been formally elevated to capo was around 1975, and it makes sense that at some point in the years after assuming that title, he would have proposed a few guys close to him.
Lombardo was a captain by August 1974 when he was also helping Accardo run the Family with Torello and Pilotta:
This is also when we learn Spilotro was definitively under Lombardo which you mentioned:
Yup, this was the reference I had been referring to earlier, of course. And it doesn't necessarily mean that Lombardo had not already been a captain for some years by this time, it's just that we can only say with certainty that he was identified as holding this position by a verified member source at this time.
My reading of the Spilotro thing is that he was almost certainly a member of the Buccieri crew as late as about 1971, when he left Chicago for Vegas (we have multiple associate sources that unequivocally placed him with that crew, including Cullotta, who we can expect to have at least known this much). By 1974, at the latest, he was reporting to Lombardo. Given the CI account that Spilotro had gotten into a serious rift with Torello over a contested promotion (which fits Torello's succession of the ailing Buccieri), he may have been transferred out of that crew for this reason.
B wrote:
Also re: Torello, while it can happen where a guy is made and immediately promoted to captain / help direct the Family, Gurera's earlier identification plus Torello being not only a captain but part of the top leadership by 1974 suggests he'd been a member for some time.
Oh, for sure. Fosco's claim isn't at face value absurd or anything. But the other evidence, including an identification years prior by a contemporaneous, verified LCN source, indicates that Fosco's secondhand account was probably confused or mistaken.
B wrote:
Great info, re: Patrick and Vento telling Rainone that members are made via ceremony and then have the right to run their own "crew". Tony brought up the Prio conversation where it was whispered that a guy like Campise was now an "avugad" (avvocato / advocate) which was typically used in the mafia to refer to a Commission member but we believe it was being used here to simply refer to having become a member, as a made member was indeed a general sort of avvocato (or even rappresentante) over the people under him. A member can advocate / argue for people, something associates generally can't do at least within the formal organization.
As Above, so Below. The soldier represents his associates, the captain represents his soldiers (and their associates), the boss represents the entire Family, and in his capacity as a Commission member, in turn represents other Families. Like Russian dolls. It's all avugads all the way down lol.
We know that Joe Costello was recorded addressing Giancana, in his capacity as representative/boss of the Family, as "avvocato" also, a term that is fully synonymous with rappresentante. That Chicago seems to have used this to refer to a "boss" at multiple levels of the hierarchy is important, in that it points to the vital dimension of the "chain of representation", which is not captured by the English use of "boss" -- which solely connotes the "chain of command" aspect of the organizational structure -- to gloss the original Sicilian usages. That Chicago, within the circle of actual mafia membership, seems to have emphasized the use of avvocato in these ways goes to underscore how important the "chain of representation" was to their own understanding of their organization.
B wrote:
Re: "pensions", never seen any info on Chicago having anything like this except what Valachi said about compensation for not dealing drugs but when Bomp visited St. Louis in 1968 he was told by Tony Giordano that the elderly members there were on some kind of payroll.
Good reminder on Bomp's claim about STL. As I noted above, given that the mafia is a type of mutual aid society, we can expect that things like this may well have been done, at least in some Families at some times. STL was, of course, an extremely conservative Family, and had a small and dwindling membership by the time that Bomp was told this by Giordano, so if Giordano was maintaining some of the elder members as a gesture of respect, it wouldn't be a big undertaking.
This reminded me that there was *one* reference to a (probable) Chicago member receiving a "pension". Frank "Afe" Mulea, a likely made member of the Prio crew who died in 1978. Mulea had been in very poor health for a number of years by that point, and a CI in the early 1970s had claimed that he was totally dependent on "government and hoodlum pensions". This was sort of a special case of a guy who was very sick and broke, living off the VA, and I can totally see Prio and DiBella having thrown money his way to take care of him (again, presumably as an ad hoc and personal gesture rather than a systematic entitlement that all or most members could expect to enjoy).
viewtopic.php?p=261750#p261750
B wrote:
Another apparent Chicago reference from Valachi is Maranzano telling him the murder of "Don Antonio" was one of the infractions Masseria committed that led to the war. This was almost certainly Antonio Lombardo and complements Gentile's claim that Masseria directed Capone to kill Lombardo and Aiello.
Agreed that this was almost certainly Tony Lombardo, though it's unclear that Valachi actually knew who he was.
[quote=B. post_id=290667 time=1741551032 user_id=127]
[quote=PolackTony post_id=290498 time=1741202188 user_id=6658]
The earliest that we can 100% confirm that Lombardo had been formally elevated to capo was around 1975, and it makes sense that at some point in the years after assuming that title, he would have proposed a few guys close to him.
[/quote]
Lombardo was a captain by August 1974 when he was also helping Accardo run the Family with Torello and Pilotta:
[img]https://theblackhand.club/forum/download/file.php?id=11924&t=1
[/img]
This is also when we learn Spilotro was definitively under Lombardo which you mentioned:
[img]https://theblackhand.club/forum/download/file.php?id=11925&t=1[/img]
[/quote]
Yup, this was the reference I had been referring to earlier, of course. And it doesn't necessarily mean that Lombardo had not already been a captain for some years by this time, it's just that we can only say with certainty that he was identified as holding this position by a verified member source at this time.
My reading of the Spilotro thing is that he was almost certainly a member of the Buccieri crew as late as about 1971, when he left Chicago for Vegas (we have multiple associate sources that unequivocally placed him with that crew, including Cullotta, who we can expect to have at least known this much). By 1974, at the latest, he was reporting to Lombardo. Given the CI account that Spilotro had gotten into a serious rift with Torello over a contested promotion (which fits Torello's succession of the ailing Buccieri), he may have been transferred out of that crew for this reason.
[quote=B]
Also re: Torello, while it can happen where a guy is made and immediately promoted to captain / help direct the Family, Gurera's earlier identification plus Torello being not only a captain but part of the top leadership by 1974 suggests he'd been a member for some time.
[/quote]
Oh, for sure. Fosco's claim isn't at face value absurd or anything. But the other evidence, including an identification years prior by a contemporaneous, verified LCN source, indicates that Fosco's secondhand account was probably confused or mistaken.
[quote=B]
Great info, re: Patrick and Vento telling Rainone that members are made via ceremony and then have the right to run their own "crew". Tony brought up the Prio conversation where it was whispered that a guy like Campise was now an "avugad" (avvocato / advocate) which was typically used in the mafia to refer to a Commission member but we believe it was being used here to simply refer to having become a member, as a made member was indeed a general sort of avvocato (or even rappresentante) over the people under him. A member can advocate / argue for people, something associates generally can't do at least within the formal organization.
[/quote]
As Above, so Below. The soldier represents his associates, the captain represents his soldiers (and their associates), the boss represents the entire Family, and in his capacity as a Commission member, in turn represents other Families. Like Russian dolls. It's all avugads all the way down lol.
We know that Joe Costello was recorded addressing Giancana, in his capacity as representative/boss of the Family, as "avvocato" also, a term that is fully synonymous with rappresentante. That Chicago seems to have used this to refer to a "boss" at multiple levels of the hierarchy is important, in that it points to the vital dimension of the "chain of representation", which is not captured by the English use of "boss" -- which solely connotes the "chain of command" aspect of the organizational structure -- to gloss the original Sicilian usages. That Chicago, within the circle of actual mafia membership, seems to have emphasized the use of avvocato in these ways goes to underscore how important the "chain of representation" was to their own understanding of their organization.
[quote=B]
Re: "pensions", never seen any info on Chicago having anything like this except what Valachi said about compensation for not dealing drugs but when Bomp visited St. Louis in 1968 he was told by Tony Giordano that the elderly members there were on some kind of payroll.
[/quote]
Good reminder on Bomp's claim about STL. As I noted above, given that the mafia is a type of mutual aid society, we can expect that things like this may well have been done, at least in some Families at some times. STL was, of course, an extremely conservative Family, and had a small and dwindling membership by the time that Bomp was told this by Giordano, so if Giordano was maintaining some of the elder members as a gesture of respect, it wouldn't be a big undertaking.
This reminded me that there was *one* reference to a (probable) Chicago member receiving a "pension". Frank "Afe" Mulea, a likely made member of the Prio crew who died in 1978. Mulea had been in very poor health for a number of years by that point, and a CI in the early 1970s had claimed that he was totally dependent on "government and hoodlum pensions". This was sort of a special case of a guy who was very sick and broke, living off the VA, and I can totally see Prio and DiBella having thrown money his way to take care of him (again, presumably as an ad hoc and personal gesture rather than a systematic entitlement that all or most members could expect to enjoy).
https://theblackhand.club/forum/viewtopic.php?p=261750#p261750
[quote=B]
Another apparent Chicago reference from Valachi is Maranzano telling him the murder of "Don Antonio" was one of the infractions Masseria committed that led to the war. This was almost certainly Antonio Lombardo and complements Gentile's claim that Masseria directed Capone to kill Lombardo and Aiello.
[/quote]
Agreed that this was almost certainly Tony Lombardo, though it's unclear that Valachi actually knew who he was.