The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

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Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by NorthBuffalo » Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:52 am

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 7:23 pm
NorthBuffalo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 6:35 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:43 pm I'm very much aware of who Dr Wayne Johnson, PhD is. And when a guy says retarded shit like the stuff above, claims about the Irish widow of a long-dead boss "vetoing" hits approved by the Chicago Family admin, Chicago not being "the mafia", etc., I don't care what experience he has or how many letters he puts after his name. It doesn't make such risible claims any less invalid. And the CCC has always been rife with poorly sourced info and BS when it comes to the formal organization in Chicago, as opposed to criminal activities and such.
I like your posts but its strange judging a guy off two quotes given his body of work and perhaps its worth clarifying with him. He said in the same quote about the mafia that the Outfit operated as a Southern Italian Criminal organization. On the Mae Capone thing, Johnson clearly wasn't alive or a small child when these events went down - he's likely retelling a story he heard, not passing this off as something concrete. It was picked up loosely by the author perhaps. Either way, he has more insight than any of us would and I'm gonna give him the benefit of my doubt personally.

We may string together details on the internet but this guy spent countless hours in court testifying against these guys not to mention literal weeks sitting in union halls during all these internal investigations. I don't think the CCC was ever as informed as the Feds were but they did work together and share information.
Wayne Johnson mostly investigated the Jewish crew under Lenny Patrick when he was CPD. Not taking that away from him but CPD rarely had many serious investigations of the Outfit for many reasons including getting paid off. I don’t really think he is very knowledgeable of the LCN traditions and customs. He is supposedly publishing a book on his investigation of Lenny Patrick’s crew.

As far of credibility, he did get caught in a lie when he said he personally ripped a cop killer from the car window while on duty and it came back that it was another cop that did it. Not a big deal but a lot of blowhards out there which could explain his PhD thing.

North Buffalo, if you are in contact with him, then ask him when his book is released.
Johnson was the Chief Investigator in the Emerald Casino debacle. He set up the surveillance of Stephens meeting Boscarino, DiFronzo and the Elmwood Park guys. He was also involved in giving evidence against Spano, Maltese, DiGiullio and the others in the Cicero debacle. He's been around I think you need to look into his background more. I'll def ask him about his book - I was emailing him about a year ago about Arthur Coia and he was quite knowledgeable and still working labor union investigations.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by Patrickgold » Wed Jul 31, 2024 7:23 pm

NorthBuffalo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 6:35 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:43 pm I'm very much aware of who Dr Wayne Johnson, PhD is. And when a guy says retarded shit like the stuff above, claims about the Irish widow of a long-dead boss "vetoing" hits approved by the Chicago Family admin, Chicago not being "the mafia", etc., I don't care what experience he has or how many letters he puts after his name. It doesn't make such risible claims any less invalid. And the CCC has always been rife with poorly sourced info and BS when it comes to the formal organization in Chicago, as opposed to criminal activities and such.
I like your posts but its strange judging a guy off two quotes given his body of work and perhaps its worth clarifying with him. He said in the same quote about the mafia that the Outfit operated as a Southern Italian Criminal organization. On the Mae Capone thing, Johnson clearly wasn't alive or a small child when these events went down - he's likely retelling a story he heard, not passing this off as something concrete. It was picked up loosely by the author perhaps. Either way, he has more insight than any of us would and I'm gonna give him the benefit of my doubt personally.

We may string together details on the internet but this guy spent countless hours in court testifying against these guys not to mention literal weeks sitting in union halls during all these internal investigations. I don't think the CCC was ever as informed as the Feds were but they did work together and share information.
Wayne Johnson mostly investigated the Jewish crew under Lenny Patrick when he was CPD. Not taking that away from him but CPD rarely had many serious investigations of the Outfit for many reasons including getting paid off. I don’t really think he is very knowledgeable of the LCN traditions and customs. He is supposedly publishing a book on his investigation of Lenny Patrick’s crew.

As far of credibility, he did get caught in a lie when he said he personally ripped a cop killer from the car window while on duty and it came back that it was another cop that did it. Not a big deal but a lot of blowhards out there which could explain his PhD thing.

North Buffalo, if you are in contact with him, then ask him when his book is released.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by NorthBuffalo » Wed Jul 31, 2024 6:35 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:43 pm I'm very much aware of who Dr Wayne Johnson, PhD is. And when a guy says retarded shit like the stuff above, claims about the Irish widow of a long-dead boss "vetoing" hits approved by the Chicago Family admin, Chicago not being "the mafia", etc., I don't care what experience he has or how many letters he puts after his name. It doesn't make such risible claims any less invalid. And the CCC has always been rife with poorly sourced info and BS when it comes to the formal organization in Chicago, as opposed to criminal activities and such.
I like your posts but its strange judging a guy off two quotes given his body of work and perhaps its worth clarifying with him. He said in the same quote about the mafia that the Outfit operated as a Southern Italian Criminal organization. On the Mae Capone thing, Johnson clearly wasn't alive or a small child when these events went down - he's likely retelling a story he heard, not passing this off as something concrete. It was picked up loosely by the author perhaps. Either way, he has more insight than any of us would and I'm gonna give him the benefit of my doubt personally.

We may string together details on the internet but this guy spent countless hours in court testifying against these guys not to mention literal weeks sitting in union halls during all these internal investigations. I don't think the CCC was ever as informed as the Feds were but they did work together and share information.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by PolackTony » Wed Jul 31, 2024 3:43 pm

I'm very much aware of who Dr Wayne Johnson, PhD is. And when a guy says retarded shit like the stuff above, claims about the Irish widow of a long-dead boss "vetoing" hits approved by the Chicago Family admin, Chicago not being "the mafia", etc., I don't care what experience he has or how many letters he puts after his name. It doesn't make such risible claims any less invalid. And the CCC has always been rife with poorly sourced info and BS when it comes to the formal organization in Chicago, as opposed to criminal activities and such.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by NorthBuffalo » Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:02 pm

Ivan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:56 am It's possible for him to both have a large amount of hands-on experience with the mob and have a lot of the same normie misconceptions about it that people who don't hang around on this forum often have.

That's actually pretty common -- actual mob guys who believe shit like the mob whacked JFK or whatever.
Yeah I mean Johnson was fired as Police Chief of Cicero (which he came in to clean up) by Betty Loren-Maltese. This was prior to all of those major indictments that would rock the town and you can believe he was involved intimately. I've corresponded with him - he's a nice guy.

So you mix that very direct exposure to the Outfit with the decades of experience as a detective and chief investigator and the access to files and photos that few outside of law enforcement will ever touch - I'm gonna believe the guy.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2005/04/ ... f-resigns/

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by Ivan » Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:56 am

It's possible for him to both have a large amount of hands-on experience with the mob and have a lot of the same normie misconceptions about it that people who don't hang around on this forum often have.

That's actually pretty common -- actual mob guys who believe shit like the mob whacked JFK or whatever.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by NorthBuffalo » Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:52 am

Sorry but Wayne Johnson was a CPD officer for 25 years and the Chicago Crime Commission's Chief Investigator. He also investigated LIUNA activities in partnership with the FBI. He would often speak to LIUNA delegates at conventions regarding the mob. I don't think people call him an expert bc he speaks at community colleges - I think they call him an expert bc he actually investigated these guys for decades. I have his book A History of Violence - and access to photos and transcripts most of us would probably shit ourselves over.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by Ivan » Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:43 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:59 pm BTW Wayne Johnson is the Chicago mob “expert”
who, in *2024* was on record stating “I want to be clear on this point: The Chicago Outfit is just that, traditional organized crime. It is not the Mafia”. This, after Family Secrets, after all of the FBI files that have been released to the public, well-known books by Joe and Bill Bonanno. Nope, credentialed expert Dr Wayne Johnson, PhD, knows what it really is and don’t you confuse it with the mafia.
That's pretty awful.

Never take the word "expert" at face value, especially in today's media environment. Expertise must be demonstrated, and any claims based on proclaimed but undemonstrated expertise should be discarded.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by PolackTony » Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:59 pm

Ivan wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:26 pm
PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:25 pm Gotta love Wayne Johnson of the CCC claiming that Mae Capone “vetoed” a hit allegedly approved by the Chicago Consiglio. It’s just extraordinary the things that people who are purported to be “experts” about Chicago have claimed, in apparently sincere belief, over the years lol.
Yeah when I read that bit I rolled my eyes so violently that they popped out of their sockets and I had to stuff them back in manually.

Reminded me of silly shit Roemer would come up with.
BTW Wayne Johnson is the Chicago mob “expert”
who, in *2024* was on record stating “I want to be clear on this point: The Chicago Outfit is just that, traditional organized crime. It is not the Mafia”. This, after Family Secrets, after all of the FBI files that have been released to the public, well-known books by Joe and Bill Bonanno. Nope, credentialed expert Dr Wayne Johnson, PhD, knows what it really is and don’t you confuse it with the mafia.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by Ivan » Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:26 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:25 pm Gotta love Wayne Johnson of the CCC claiming that Mae Capone “vetoed” a hit allegedly approved by the Chicago Consiglio. It’s just extraordinary the things that people who are purported to be “experts” about Chicago have claimed, in apparently sincere belief, over the years lol.
Yeah when I read that bit I rolled my eyes so violently that they popped out of their sockets and I had to stuff them back in manually.

Reminded me of silly shit Roemer would come up with.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by PolackTony » Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:25 pm

Gotta love Wayne Johnson of the CCC claiming that Mae Capone “vetoed” a hit allegedly approved by the Chicago Consiglio. It’s just extraordinary the things that people who are purported to be “experts” about Chicago have claimed, in apparently sincere belief, over the years lol.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by Ivan » Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:53 am

Here's the story as told in The Outfit by Gus Russo. Click the images to zoom.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by PolackTony » Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:39 am

James Kaplan’s biography of Sinatra claimed that Sinatra angrily confronted Arnaz, who he had known for years, at a Palm Springs restaurant over the portrayal of Italians in the series. Doesn’t say anything about Sinatra having been put up to it, however, just that Sinatra was personally offended and outraged. Allegedly when Sinatra confronted him, Arnaz replied “What do you want me to do, make them all Jews??”.

Per the Times, Tony Anastasio had also publicly spoken out against the show’s portrayal of Italians.

The story that Giancana put a hit out on Arnaz, so far as I’m aware, goes back to Jimmy Fratianno. While Fratianno later testified that he was personally told of the contract on Arnaz by Giancana, the original story that appeared in “The Last Mafioso” was that Fratianno was informed of the planned hit by Johnny Roselli:

Image

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/02/28/us/t ... iller.html

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by JogodoBicho » Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:27 am

Imagine if Sam Giancana had seen Frank Nitti's portrayal in 1987's The Untouchables.

Re: The Outfit vs Desi Arnaz

by Dwalin2014 » Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:22 am

The Italian names weren't the majority anyway, even in the 1st seasons, so if Giancana and whoever in the mafia protested, it was really absurd on their part; what if the other ethnicities started protesting too, after seeing Italian names being replaced with theirs? The show was never realistic, although very entertaining, so fuck Giancana and company for trying to erase one of the few realistic elements from the series. For example, Frank Nitti's fictional bodyguard, Nick Tommasi, becomes "Pete Konitz". What the hell? The Italian organized crime was the strongest in America back then, he could well deal with this fact, rather than blaming the show's producer...

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