THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Medicated wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 6:59 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:18 pm I've never seen that about American Families beginning as decine of Sicilian Families but the two Venezuelan Families started as decine (of Santa Ninfa and Siculiana) then were later recognized as Families with the approval of the Sicilian and American mafia leadership so a similar process might well have played out in the early US.

That's interesting. Would you happen to know where I might find more information on these two Venezuelan families?

viewtopic.php?t=7050

B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:18 pm I've never seen that about American Families beginning as decine of Sicilian Families but the two Venezuelan Families started as decine (of Santa Ninfa and Siculiana) then were later recognized as Families with the approval of the Sicilian and American mafia leadership so a similar process might well have played out in the early US.

That's interesting. Would you happen to know where I might find more information on these two Venezuelan families?

Antiliar wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:12 pm

scagghiuni wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:36 am according to some sicilian turncoat the American families started as decinas of the Sicilian ones

Do you have more information on this source?

Leonardo Messina, for example, said it; there were declarations in front of the anti-mafia commission headed by Violante at that time

I've never seen that about American Families beginning as decine of Sicilian Families but the two Venezuelan Families started as decine (of Santa Ninfa and Siculiana) then were later recognized as Families with the approval of the Sicilian and American mafia leadership so a similar process might well have played out in the early US.

Morello wrote that Americans were supposed to consult with the compaesani of a proposed member before making him in the early 1900s so it would make sense Families were similarly formed with the approval of their hometown Family, especially since the initial members would have been transfers and hometown played such a pivotal role in the identities of early Families.

A source told the FBI the American mafia initially only allowed Sicilian-born members then grew to allow American-born Sicilians followed by the other Italian ethnic groups. This doesn't tell us anything about the formation of Families themselves but it does tell us something about the attitude and make-up of the Families. I'm confident the initial Families weren't random Sicilians deciding to organize but Western Sicilians from the mafia tradition who operated as branches of the same system. Letters were common as was traveling back and forth so even though communication was difficult by later standards it still took place.

Another thing is that Leonardo Messina said a borgata needed ten members to form (interestingly the same size as a traditional decina). Possible in the early US the same rule was at play and after ten members moved to an area or were inducted, the group could request recognition as their own distinct borgata.

Antiliar wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:17 pm

Ivan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 12:58 am Yeah this has probably been lost permanently barring some amazing new discovery, which is unlikely.

Best we can do is take bits and pieces of information, and reasoning from what we already know about how this stuff works, come up with possible-but-unproven reconstructions of what was going on then. This is the sort of methodology that has for example led some to conclude that Nicola Taranto was a "Gambino" boss in the 1890s, or that said family emerged in the 1870s.

But that's all, really. Just reconstructions.

I hope I was clear in the article that Taranto "may have been" a Gambino boss, not that he definitely was. I make sure to use a lot of qualifiers to show that it's speculation, a possibility, and a theory.

You were! Sorry, I wasn't clear about that myself.

Ivan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 12:58 am Yeah this has probably been lost permanently barring some amazing new discovery, which is unlikely.

Best we can do is take bits and pieces of information, and reasoning from what we already know about how this stuff works, come up with possible-but-unproven reconstructions of what was going on then. This is the sort of methodology that has for example led some to conclude that Nicola Taranto was a "Gambino" boss in the 1890s, or that said family emerged in the 1870s.

But that's all, really. Just reconstructions.

I hope I was clear in the article that Taranto "may have been" a Gambino boss, not that he definitely was. I make sure to use a lot of qualifiers to show that it's speculation, a possibility, and a theory.

scagghiuni wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:36 am according to some sicilian turncoat the American families started as decinas of the Sicilian ones

Do you have more information on this source?

scagghiuni wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:36 am according to some sicilian turncoat the American families started as decinas of the Sicilian ones

That was my assumption. Frankly I don’t understand the Sicilian structure well enough to make any guesses around that. Does each Sicilian town roll up into an overall Sicilian mob leadership ie the commission? Which would differ to the US as each family is somewhat autonomous. I’m thinking if the New York families were extensions of towns or if as you say it was its own extension of the mafia in general. Obviously all speculation but I enjoy any info/guesses anyone has

according to some sicilian turncoat the American families started as decinas of the Sicilian ones

Cool appreciate your thorough responses, very interesting

Yeah this has probably been lost permanently barring some amazing new discovery, which is unlikely.

Best we can do is take bits and pieces of information, and reasoning from what we already know about how this stuff works, come up with possible-but-unproven reconstructions of what was going on then. This is the sort of methodology that has for example led some to conclude that Nicola Taranto was a "Gambino" boss in the 1890s, or that said family emerged in the 1870s.

But that's all, really. Just reconstructions.

We do know that several early leaders were made in Sicily. Giuseppe Morello was a member of the Corleone Fratuzzi under Paolinello Streva before he fled to America. However, he went to New Orleans and Bryan, Texas, before settling in New York. There were Corleonese already there such as Salvatore Clemente, so the borgata may have already existed by the time he became a boss. However, we don't know. Maybe he did create a Corleone-dominant borgata, or maybe he took over an already existing one. Did the Morello Family begin as an extension of Corleone? We don't know.

So we don't know if members were sent to form Families or if they started on their own with permission from their old bosses, or if they formed Families and sent word what they did. It could have been a mix, but my guess is that the latter two are the more likely than the former.

So we really can't answer your questions with any certitude since we don't have any sources that tell us those details.

Do we have much concept of the early stages of the mob in America? I’m specifically asking how “families” began to originate. For example did morello family begin as an extension of the corleone family that got approval from Sicily to induct people? Did certain people get that approval from Sicily? Did people just start families on their own without any discussion with Sicily? I am assuming all early leaders were made members in Sicily before starting in the US. I’m sure this has been discussed before but I have zero knowledge on this and know many on here will be expert

Thanks!