Questions about pre 1931 after reading Informer article

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Re: Questions about pre 1931 after reading Informer article

by Antiliar » Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:25 pm

I think in all probability the General Assembly (and maybe the Grand Council) is based on the Italian parliament during the monarchy, or perhaps more local assemblies in Sicily. It's noteworthy that these bodies - and the Commission - all followed parliamentary procedure, something similar to Robert's Rules of Order. We see this in Morello's letters and the Bonanno books.

Re: Questions about pre 1931 after reading Informer article

by Little_Al1991 » Sat Jul 06, 2024 9:35 am

B. wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:23 pm As for what became of the Assemblea and Gran Consiglio, it evolved into the Commission system rather than the Commission being "invented" one day. It looks like these earlier processes and bodies were similar in many ways to what was going on during the Commission era even though there were differences. Apalachin for example looks to have been similar to an Assemblea meeting although I don't think the attendees were voting on anything -- voting seems to have been done only among the Commission, but Commission members represented the votes of the Families assigned to them (hence them being called avoccati / avugads, i.e. advocates).

Going back to what I said about "as above so below" with Families once having their own consiglio in addition to the national consiglio, Families had their own Assemblea-type meeting they called a "turna" where all of the Family members attended and voted on Family elections, changes in the hierarchy were announced, and members could be inducted. What's interesting is as the Assemblea and Gran Consiglio evolved into a different system nationally, we also see the turna and Family consiglio begin to fade from view. The national system tended to mirror the Family's own system.
Thank you for ur excellent and detailed insight

Re: Questions about pre 1931 after reading Informer article

by B. » Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:23 pm

As for what became of the Assemblea and Gran Consiglio, it evolved into the Commission system rather than the Commission being "invented" one day. It looks like these earlier processes and bodies were similar in many ways to what was going on during the Commission era even though there were differences. Apalachin for example looks to have been similar to an Assemblea meeting although I don't think the attendees were voting on anything -- voting seems to have been done only among the Commission, but Commission members represented the votes of the Families assigned to them (hence them being called avoccati / avugads, i.e. advocates).

Going back to what I said about "as above so below" with Families once having their own consiglio in addition to the national consiglio, Families had their own Assemblea-type meeting they called a "turna" where all of the Family members attended and voted on Family elections, changes in the hierarchy were announced, and members could be inducted. What's interesting is as the Assemblea and Gran Consiglio evolved into a different system nationally, we also see the turna and Family consiglio begin to fade from view. The national system tended to mirror the Family's own system.

Re: Questions about pre 1931 after reading Informer article

by B. » Fri Jul 05, 2024 1:00 pm

Adding to what Angelo said, we have a 1909 letter from Giuseppe Morello to Chicago boss Rosario Dipenza where he attempts to explain certain differences between the Assemblea and the Gran Consiglio (also known as the Consiglio Supremo). Unfortunately it is still vague but one thing he says is that members of the Gran Consiglio can attend the Assemblea meetings but can't vote or intervene in the process. Gran Consiglieri look to have been high-level consultants / mediators but not directly involved in the decision-making that goes on at an Assemblea. Assemblea meetings look to have included bosses or their designated representatives (i.e. sostituti) who voted on matters of national importance, including conflicts and disputes within individual Families if the issue escalates beyond a Family's control.

For the Gran Consiglio, at one point in Gentile's book he is described as a "Consigliere to the Capo of the Consiglio Supremo, an intermediary and peacemaker". This implies that the capo dei capi was actually the head of this national consiglio, which matches Joe Bonanno who insisted that the "boss of bosses" was actually a "capo consigliere" (head councillor). It also makes sense as individual Families had their own consiglio as Angelo described with an elected chairman or secretary (not the Family boss). So there was a sort of "as above, so below" system at play where the national mafia had a council with an elected chairman (the so-called capo dei capi) and the individual Families had their own council with an elected chairman. In individual Families, we know the council was not a "ruling panel" but a body designed to discuss/vote on general policy and formal procedure as well as hold underworld trials for members. As a member of the Gran Consiglio, Gentile attended trials where he similarly advocated/discussed problems involving members in different places that had national implications.

We have a massive thread on here about the Family consigli and this existed not only all over the country but also in Sicily: viewtopic.php?t=6598

Something interesting is the national capo could designate a sostituto to act for him at an Assemblea meeting in his absence. During the 1920s, Gentile said D'Aquila used Giuseppe Traina (his Family consigliere) in this capacity and there is a Magaddino tape where he discusses an early 1920s Assemblea about a Buffalo leadership dispute and though it isn't stated outright it comes across like Chicago boss Michele Merlo (a highly dignified, respected leader) was chairing the meeting.

Adding to what he said about the relationship between Sicily and the US, where Sicily was sometimes consulted about problems in the US and advocated for members/leaders in trouble (most famous example is the Morello-Lupo faction visiting Sicily to try and get their death sentences lifted). The opposite also seems to be true, as D'Aquila sent emissaries to Sicily in the mid-1920s to mediate on behalf of Palermo bosses Antonino Grillo (Mineo's bro-in-law) and his ally Francesco Motisi (Lupo's bro-in-law) in the emerging Palermo war at the time. A source said Grillo had twice come to the US to provide assistance to D'Aquila so D'Aquila was returning the favor to help Grillo. So it wasn't that American-based members were the little brothers who were subservient to Sicily, it was a reciprocal relationship based on alliances and advocacy and Americans could assist with problems in Sicily as well.

An important detail is that of the known Assemblea meetings, not a single one was a "racket summit" or anything like that where crime or business was discussed. They were purely related to politics within the formal organization itself. Should note that Melchiorre Allegra explicitly said there was an Assemblea meeting in Sicily during the 1920s Palermo war so that existed there as well.

What all of this shows is the mafia was not a system of "giving orders" but a complex national and even international system of arbitration, mediation, and political negotiaton. Unfortunately we will likely never get rid of the myth that these meetings were "racket summits" or that type of thing but the facts are there proving otherwise.

Re: Questions about pre 1931 after reading Informer article

by Little_Al1991 » Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:05 am

Angelo Santino wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:10 am
Little_Al1991 wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:29 am 1. Did the mob always have a hierarchy that we see today in the life such as Capo,Consigliere and Underboss, did they have this in place when they came to America?
2. What are “assemblies” I’ve read about National Assemblies, general assemblies and Assemblea Generale. It was mentioned in the Informer article but is there anything more about it. I don’t know much about it. What happened to these assemblies, they are not here anymore it seems.
3. What is the Consiglio? I’ve read about it within the informer article but I’d like to know more if possible about
4. Morello,Valente and Lupo went to Sicily in order to get rid of the contract that Sal D’Aquila had placed upon them. Does that mean that the Mafia in Italy had influence over the Mafia in the states during the pre 1931 era?

The Informer article is excellent. I wish it was more widespread so the incorrect information is put behind us
1 Yes. Evidence exists as early as the mid 19th century indicating hierarchies.
2 Assemblies were national meetings of bosses. Above that was the grand consiglio which could be either
a: commission-style group of bosses
b: the The consiglio of the boss became grand consiglio once said boss became boss of bosses.
3 Consigli were councils within each family that typically was composed of the admin and two additional slots which generally went to captains or senior members. Evidence of them can be found in Detroit, Tampa, Chicago, San Francisco and its implied that the Gambinos had it at one point.
4 Yes and no, Palermo couldn't call D'Aquila over and give him a lecture on how to run the American Mafia. Mafia sitdowns and arbitrations are more like court cases than anything else. They went to Sicily and presumably Antonino Grillo got involved, he was Mineo's brother in law and had a relationship with D'Aquila.

Thank you for reading, hope you enjoyed!
Thank you for ur answers and yes, I did enjoy reading Informer
It was great

Re: Questions about pre 1931 after reading Informer article

by Angelo Santino » Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:10 am

Little_Al1991 wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:29 am 1. Did the mob always have a hierarchy that we see today in the life such as Capo,Consigliere and Underboss, did they have this in place when they came to America?
2. What are “assemblies” I’ve read about National Assemblies, general assemblies and Assemblea Generale. It was mentioned in the Informer article but is there anything more about it. I don’t know much about it. What happened to these assemblies, they are not here anymore it seems.
3. What is the Consiglio? I’ve read about it within the informer article but I’d like to know more if possible about
4. Morello,Valente and Lupo went to Sicily in order to get rid of the contract that Sal D’Aquila had placed upon them. Does that mean that the Mafia in Italy had influence over the Mafia in the states during the pre 1931 era?

The Informer article is excellent. I wish it was more widespread so the incorrect information is put behind us
1 Yes. Evidence exists as early as the mid 19th century indicating hierarchies.
2 Assemblies were national meetings of bosses. Above that was the grand consiglio which could be either
a: commission-style group of bosses
b: the The consiglio of the boss became grand consiglio once said boss became boss of bosses.
3 Consigli were councils within each family that typically was composed of the admin and two additional slots which generally went to captains or senior members. Evidence of them can be found in Detroit, Tampa, Chicago, San Francisco and its implied that the Gambinos had it at one point.
4 Yes and no, Palermo couldn't call D'Aquila over and give him a lecture on how to run the American Mafia. Mafia sitdowns and arbitrations are more like court cases than anything else. They went to Sicily and presumably Antonino Grillo got involved, he was Mineo's brother in law and had a relationship with D'Aquila.

Thank you for reading, hope you enjoyed!

Questions about pre 1931 after reading Informer article

by Little_Al1991 » Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:29 am

1. Did the mob always have a hierarchy that we see today in the life such as Capo,Consigliere and Underboss, did they have this in place when they came to America?
2. What are “assemblies” I’ve read about National Assemblies, general assemblies and Assemblea Generale. It was mentioned in the Informer article but is there anything more about it. I don’t know much about it. What happened to these assemblies, they are not here anymore it seems.
3. What is the Consiglio? I’ve read about it within the informer article but I’d like to know more if possible about
4. Morello,Valente and Lupo went to Sicily in order to get rid of the contract that Sal D’Aquila had placed upon them. Does that mean that the Mafia in Italy had influence over the Mafia in the states during the pre 1931 era?

The Informer article is excellent. I wish it was more widespread so the incorrect information is put behind us

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