THE BLACK HAND FORUM

B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 3:04 pm If you've followed this stuff long enough you see these narratives form. People are attracted to the idea of these "tragic heroes" who would have been such "great" bosses but the big, mean, and evil bad guy killed them out of jealousy, greed, or whatever.

Salvie Testa, the perfect and handsome young prince of the Philly mob heartlessly killed by the paranoid Little Nicky, aka Satan. Meanwhile it was Testa's peers who continually told Scarfo about problems with Testa and as Caramandi said, finally a meeting was held where Faffy Iannarella (Testa's close friend) convinced him Testa needed to be killed. Jealousy, greed, and paranoia are factors too but there is more to these stories.

Holy shit this is so true. People love latching on to those narratives and it’s hard to convince them otherwise.

B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 2:20 pm Yep, Rotondo testified about it and so did Michael DiLeonardo. Both of those guys are well-measured and intelligent sources. DiLeonardo has also told some stories in conversation with us.

Just as an example of Cutolo's Gotti syndrome, during the 90s guys were showing up to sitdowns dressed down in casual clothes but Cutolo would show up dressed like a pimp or old timey movie gangster wearing an all black suit and white tie. He was even called out for doing this at one sitdown and left so he could change his clothes.

It's similar to Massino's complaints about Vitale during the same period, that he caught the Gotti bug and was going around peacocking. Remember too Massino was told by Bellomo that Gotti was even trying to back Vitale to unseat or kill Massino so Vitale could take over. Sciascia tried to tell Massino about it much earlier on. Very similar to the Cutolo situation where Gotti propped up Orena (and Cutolo by default), hence the war, but this continued to some degree afterward as Peter Gotti (acting for his brother) still refused to recognize Persico as boss long after the war. A meeting was eventually held where Allie Persico directly asked Peter Gotti to recognize his father as boss and Gotti balked but DiLeonardo ultimately convinced him it was the right thing to do. You can see these were the politics that were enabling Cutolo in addition to his own behavior.

Speaking of Rotondo, he testified that something similar played out with John D'Amato. D'Amato had become very close to Gotti and was also parading around NYC. The popular story is "D'Amato da GAY mobster, da REAL LIFE Vito Spatafore" but Rotondo testified a big part of the murder conspiracy was D'Amato trying to usurp control of the Family and the gay rumor was basically a way to justify the murder, allowing the Jersey faction and D'Amato's rivals in the NY faction to do what they already wanted to do given D'Amato's conduct in Family politics.

the fag thing is probably bullshit and was used as an excuse as B. stated.
Was gotti friendly w billy?

Tonyd621 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:56 am Who paid money to find this info on pacer? PM there info on venmo and I'll send them half.

It was me but it’s okay. Thank you for the offer

Who paid money to find this info on pacer? PM there info on venmo and I'll send them half.

that kid on youtube? that is really fucking scummy. he makes his money by robbing information off this forum? fuck him. he should be reported to the mafia police!

So lame to not at least credit the forum, especially if Little Al paid money on Pacer or whatever to get this info

Nadu is a loser and a fraud to boot. He just skims the forum for info and pretends like he’s knowledgeable.

We see you jeff nadu you little bitch

moneyman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:22 pm Did Nadu just make a video with this info?

Yup, dude just made a video basically paraphrasing this entire post and fronting like he’s doing his own “heavy research”

Did Nadu just make a video with this info?

Good point B. The public narrative around the Cutolo hit has been shaped by the people attempting to secure Allie and DeRoss' convictions. That's the district attorney's job and while I don't dispute the evidence admitted, it's clear that it's a skewed version of events favoring their conviction.

gohnjotti wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 2:04 pm

B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:40 pm I've spoken to two people who personally knew Allie Persico and there's no question he was highly respected in the life and seen as his own man. People bring up nepotism but that's a core part of the mafia. Joe Profaci made his bro-in-law underboss and put other relatives/paesans in important roles -- at its root it's a clan-based organization. The Persicos just did this in their own Americanized way.

The Cutolo/Persico situation is one of those popular narratives, i.e. "Cutolo GOOD, Persico BAD". I approach these things objectively and try not to have a personal opinion on what goes in in that world but like Gohn said, the Persicos had reason to feel threatened by Cutolo. Along with being one of Orena's main supporters and leading hit teams during the war, he was stepping on toes in the mid-late 90s and developed "Gotti syndrome" in that he was parading around in gangster costumes and letting the world know he was a big deal. It was well-understood on the street and among other Families that Cutolo was angling to take over the Family.

Good point B., I complete forgot that Anthony Rotondo had testified about this "Gotti syndrome" (I don't think he used those exact words), but essentially that Cutolo had become very flashy and 'out-there' after becoming underboss, and that he had an air of authority as if he made decisions on behalf of the family.

The fucking guy was always surrounded by 20 kids. Even though he's retarded, I feel bad for Billy jr.

Deross must be closing in on 90. hopefully, he's at a USP and not some soft FCI.

If you've followed this stuff long enough you see these narratives form. People are attracted to the idea of these "tragic heroes" who would have been such "great" bosses but the big, mean, and evil bad guy killed them out of jealousy, greed, or whatever.

Salvie Testa, the perfect and handsome young prince of the Philly mob heartlessly killed by the paranoid Little Nicky, aka Satan. Meanwhile it was Testa's peers who continually told Scarfo about problems with Testa and as Caramandi said, finally a meeting was held where Faffy Iannarella (Testa's close friend) convinced him Testa needed to be killed. Jealousy, greed, and paranoia are factors too but there is more to these stories.

In addition to what Persico observed on his own, he was being told by high-ranking members, including members of other Families, that Cutolo was becoming a problem. Even the Jackie DeRoss narrative is off. DiLeonardo knew DeRoss on the street and they had other social connections outside of the life and Michael had a very high opinion of him as a person. The other guy I talked to did prison time with DeRoss and said the same exact thing, that DeRoss was a genuinely nice guy to spend time with. Yes, he betrayed his old friend Cutolo and badgered Cutolo's family about money/rackets afterward but he was a member of Cosa Nostra and that's what they do. It's why Buscetta hugged and forgave Cancemi in court for strangling Buscetta's own son -- "I know what it means to be in Cosa Nostra." Not everyone has that level of enlightenment but that response alone tells us why Buscetta's mind was so respected in the life.

Nobody is saying what these guys do in these situations is moral but it's how it works. If Cutolo had usurped control of the Family or killed Persico, he would have harassed the Persico relatives for resources he believed belonged to the Family. Cutolo and his crew were notorious for terrorizing people as it is.

Stuff like this is why it's important to have sources from different factions. If you read Bonanno and Valachi, the Castellammarese War is black and white. "Joe the boss FAT and BAD", meanwhile you read Gentile and even though he says Masseria was dictatorial and vicious he had different sympathies and a broader perspective. Masseria was open to peace but Maranzano completely rejected the national peace committee and Masseria was ultimately killed by his own people for not being violent and ruthless enough. Cracks start to develop in the narrative. If one of Masseria's core allies like Mangano or Luciano had detailed the war we would probably have an even different perspective on who Masseria was and what was going on in their minds.

Great info B.

B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:40 pm
The Cutolo/Persico situation is one of those popular narratives, i.e. "Cutolo GOOD, Persico BAD". I approach these things objectively and try not to have a personal opinion on what goes on in that world

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and I think there are many different viewpoints we're yet to understand. There doesn't seem to be any benefit for Allie to get Cutolo whacked unless he was genuinely concerned about a power play. The only big winner of that thing was DeRoss, who assumed Cutolo's rank, took over Cutolo's social club, and rummaged through Cutolo's widow's home to find his loansharking records and capitalize those. From that perspective, it seems far more likely that the Cutolo murder was a DeRoss initiative which he convinced Allie to sign off on by sparking fears of a family takeover.

Take from this what you will, but I've also spoken to someone who was in the MDC with both Allie and DeRoss after their arrests. He spoke of quite a public incident wherein DeRoss went over to Allie to report that some other mobster in the MDC had sent his regards, something along those lines. Apparently Allie chewed him out, in front of everyone, for passing messages and discussing the mob while behind bars. Words to the effect of: "Don't you know where we are right now? I don't want to hear messages from anybody, shove them up your ass," etc., etc., and DeRoss had to walk out, in front of the other inmates, with his head hanging.

Yep, Rotondo testified about it and so did Michael DiLeonardo. Both of those guys are well-measured and intelligent sources. DiLeonardo has also told some stories in conversation with us.

Just as an example of Cutolo's Gotti syndrome, during the 90s guys were showing up to sitdowns dressed down in casual clothes but Cutolo would show up dressed like a pimp or old timey movie gangster wearing an all black suit and white tie. He was even called out for doing this at one sitdown and left so he could change his clothes.

It's similar to Massino's complaints about Vitale during the same period, that he caught the Gotti bug and was going around peacocking. Remember too Massino was told by Bellomo that Gotti was even trying to back Vitale to unseat or kill Massino so Vitale could take over. Sciascia tried to tell Massino about it much earlier on. Very similar to the Cutolo situation where Gotti propped up Orena (and Cutolo by default), hence the war, but this continued to some degree afterward as Peter Gotti (acting for his brother) still refused to recognize Persico as boss long after the war. A meeting was eventually held where Allie Persico directly asked Peter Gotti to recognize his father as boss and Gotti balked but DiLeonardo ultimately convinced him it was the right thing to do. You can see these were the politics that were enabling Cutolo in addition to his own behavior.

Speaking of Rotondo, he testified that something similar played out with John D'Amato. D'Amato had become very close to Gotti and was also parading around NYC. The popular story is "D'Amato da GAY mobster, da REAL LIFE Vito Spatafore" but Rotondo testified a big part of the murder conspiracy was D'Amato trying to usurp control of the Family and the gay rumor was basically a way to justify the murder, allowing the Jersey faction and D'Amato's rivals in the NY faction to do what they already wanted to do given D'Amato's conduct in Family politics.

B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:40 pm I've spoken to two people who personally knew Allie Persico and there's no question he was highly respected in the life and seen as his own man. People bring up nepotism but that's a core part of the mafia. Joe Profaci made his bro-in-law underboss and put other relatives/paesans in important roles -- at its root it's a clan-based organization. The Persicos just did this in their own Americanized way.

The Cutolo/Persico situation is one of those popular narratives, i.e. "Cutolo GOOD, Persico BAD". I approach these things objectively and try not to have a personal opinion on what goes in in that world but like Gohn said, the Persicos had reason to feel threatened by Cutolo. Along with being one of Orena's main supporters and leading hit teams during the war, he was stepping on toes in the mid-late 90s and developed "Gotti syndrome" in that he was parading around in gangster costumes and letting the world know he was a big deal. It was well-understood on the street and among other Families that Cutolo was angling to take over the Family.

Good point B., I complete forgot that Anthony Rotondo had testified about this "Gotti syndrome" (I don't think he used those exact words), but essentially that Cutolo had become very flashy and 'out-there' after becoming underboss, and that he had an air of authority as if he made decisions on behalf of the family.