THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **Aristotle123** » Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:47 am

Thanks for your quick responses

To be clear,a camorra member who respectfully declines mafia membership might still have the option of being an associate on record with a mafia family?
And if the camorra member who declines mafia membership has a close camorra ally with membership in a mafia family(dual membership) wouldn't that be an advantasgeous way to go,thus not being subject to a mafia boss giving him orders,etc?

by **Angelo Santino** » Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:06 am

Aristotle123 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2024 12:09 pm So The camorristi who got inducted into the mafia could have dual memberships?
But were mafia members offered the same privilege of joining camorra clans and thus have dual memberships?

If a camorra member stays a full fledged camorra member,he might decide he's better off not joining the mafia as a member ,but rather as an "associate" if that option was available?
Or maybe the camorrist doesn't become a mafia member but takes advantage of the mafia memberships of his close fellow camorra clan members who now have dual memberships??

1 As long as what they did as camorristi didnt violate mafia norms.
2 There are instances of mafiosi joining camorra but with these cases and the cases of camorra joining mafia it was on an individual basis, this was not a merger between groups.
3/4 Yes and yes. Boiardo I think, NJ Gen Captain refused mafia membership for decades, finally gave in and joined in the 40s after most of his people had joined while he was in prison.

by **Aristotle123** » Sat Jun 01, 2024 12:09 pm

So The camorristi who got inducted into the mafia could have dual memberships?
But were mafia members offered the same privilege of joining camorra clans and thus have dual memberships?

If a camorra member stays a full fledged camorra member,he might decide he's better off not joining the mafia as a member ,but rather as an "associate" if that option was available?
Or maybe the camorrist doesn't become a mafia member but takes advantage of the mafia memberships of his close fellow camorra clan members who now have dual memberships??

by **Angelo Santino** » Sat Jun 01, 2024 6:01 am

Aristotle123 wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 12:01 pm How do you determine who brought who in?
And who followed whose rules,initiations,etc ?
The way most understand it is that the Sicilians brought in the others-Neapolitans,Calabrese,Barese,etc.
If the others got absorbed into the Sicilian mafia or cosa nostra what motivated Sicilians to accept them,and what motiovated Camorristi,etc to give up their own structure,rules,traditions,etc?

1 We have both documented and circumstantial evidence. We know Masseria brought in Capone. We know when Milano joined Cleveland that Lonardo was boss so we assume he had to have signed off on it.
2 You join the Mafia, you adhere to Mafia rules.
3 That is true.
4 Combination of social and network expansion. Bringing in Calabrese and Nap leaders gave them access to different network, it's the same as the Mafia initiating a gang member or someone involved in a particular industry with the assumption that it'll benefit them. Second, the Camorristi didnt have to give up anything, they were free to carry on with their own society and we have documented evidence that they did, despite being Mafia members. When you look at the structure of what we call Camorra we see societies on top of societies, these are doti which require its own ceremony for each entry, they are not ranks in the mafia sense of boss, capo, soldier. So for the camorristi, joining another society (mafia) would be just another doti in the eyes of their own society. As Mafiosi, they remained members in good standing as long as they adhered to the rules which in most cases they did, in fact, ironically there's evidence that they were even more dogmatic about mafia rules than the Sicilians themselves.

by **Aristotle123** » Fri May 31, 2024 12:01 pm

How do you determine who brought who in?
And who followed whose rules,initiations,etc ?
The way most understand it is that the Sicilians brought in the others-Neapolitans,Calabrese,Barese,etc.
If the others got absorbed into the Sicilian mafia or cosa nostra what motivated Sicilians to accept them,and what motiovated Camorristi,etc to give up their own structure,rules,traditions,etc?

by **Angelo Santino** » Thu May 02, 2024 8:01 am

Mr Parlapiano wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 11:41 am Hi guys,

I'm new to the Forum, but I've been reading and researching about the Mafia & Camorra for decades. I'm not an expert like you guys, but not a newbie. Discovered you guys through your YT Channel Mob Archeologists and I love and admire the amount of knowledge you have.

Thank you, Angelo, for your Camorra articles. I've always been convinced that Freemasons/Carbonari were very influential in Camorra/Mafia Codes, structure, rites. Especially the Carbonari, because during the Risorgimento, these guys were jailed for their political ideas and were put in the same prisons as any brigante.

A lot of them had a high social status and probably paid for protection before becoming idealogical leaders in jail. That's just my opinion, not 100% facts..

The fact that Camorristi distance themselves with this kind of Song …

We are not Carbonari
We are not Royalists
But we are Camorrists
And we f*ck this and that

... is normal… Their main goal is not an ideology or a Coup d'état … They are very pragmatic and opportunistic…

What's more interesting in this little song to me is the simple fact they are agnowledging the Carbonari Movement which is proof they mingled with them for a while before saying f**k these guys and their revolutionary BS ...

@Angelo. I have a question regarding the structure of The Camorra, some sources state that there are 3 degrees, but It really looks to me as if there are only 2 degrees : MAJOR (Camorrista) and MINOR (Picciotto + Giovinotto Onorati) … Do you really see a structural 3rd degree there? Or is it just the picciottti using the giovanotti onorati in their crews as "soldiers" ...

Thank You!

Salut. Thank you for joining this forum and supporting our podcast and supporting my articles. It's just the beginning.

The Major Society consisted of the grade/Dote of Camorristi and the Minor Society consisted of the grades/doti of Picciotti and G.O.' There was a formal process to go through all three grades. You can read about it in article 3 where I painstakingly tried to break it down.

What we see in 'ndrangheta is just an evolved form of it: the grades of G.O. up to Sgarrista are in the Minor and the Santisti up to whatever the latest grade exists are the Major. Does that make sense?

by **Mr Parlapiano** » Wed May 01, 2024 11:41 am

Hi guys,

I'm new to the Forum, but I've been reading and researching about the Mafia & Camorra for decades. I'm not an expert like you guys, but not a newbie.

Discovered you guys through your YT Channel Mob Archeologists and I love and admire the amount of knowledge you have.

Thank you, Angelo, for your Camorra articles. I've always been convinced that Freemasons/Carbonari were very influential in Camorra/Mafia Codes, structure, rites. Especially the Carbonari, because during the Risorgimento, these guys were jailed for their political ideas and were put in the same prisons as any brigante.

A lot of them had a high social status and probably paid for protection before becoming idealogical leaders in jail. That's just my opinion, not 100% facts..

The fact that Camorristi distance themselves with this kind of Song …

We are not Carbonari
We are not Royalists
But we are Camorrists
And we f*ck this and that

... is normal… Their main goal is not an ideology or a Coup d'état … They are very pragmatic and opportunistic…

What's more interesting in this little song to me is the simple fact they are agnowledging the Carbonari Movement which is proof they mingled with them for a while before saying f**k these guys and their revolutionary BS ...

@Angelo. I have a question regarding the structure of The Camorra, some sources state that there are 3 degrees, but It really looks to me as if there are only 2 degrees : MAJOR (Camorrista) and MINOR (Picciotto + Giovinotto Onorati) … Do you really see a structural 3rd degree there? Or is it just the picciottti using the giovanotti onorati in their crews as "soldiers" ...

Thank You!

by **Angelo Santino** » Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:38 am

It may be worth noting the difference between the Mafia and Camorra structure: Mafia had one degree of membership and so- in theory- was more selective and exclusive; Camorra on the other hand had 3 degrees, meaning they could bring anyone in and keep them at the bottom while moving up the promising members into the next two grades, which may be why law enforcement agents were able to infiltrate as members as noted in Naples and New York.

However, there's no evidence that Mallamo's "Calabrese Organization" had that structure by the 1960's, they might have or it may have degraded into a watered-down version. But regardless, the Calabrese between Cleveland and Pittsburgh at least seemed to have some unilateral cohesion/group between them that was not LCN despite many of the top Calabrians being LCN. One informant from his Calabrian vantage point in Youngstown stated that Milano of CL and Ripepi and Amato of Pittsburgh were the "real bosses." We know that's not true from a mafia organizational perspective that the Calabrese informant was in no position to know but from the Calabrese perspective, those guys were the leaders.

by B. » Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:25 pm

Paul Romeo was a Pittsburgh captain at that time and the other Romeos were with Pittsburgh so it makes sense the informant reached out to him first. Not hard to understand why informants in the area were confused about affiliation though.

by **Stroccos** » Sat Apr 27, 2024 1:17 pm

B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:35 pm Yeah, after revisiting the Pindelli report I agree it wasn't necessarily related to "Calabrian organization" affairs. It is interesting though that the son of a Pittsburgh member associated with the Calabrian network was given assistance by Milano in connection with a prostitution-related dispute.

There were at least two and possibly three informants connected to Youngstown who had information on the Calabrian group, one that was initiated into the Camorra and another that simply knew about the organization and had relatives who were part of it. Neither was a made member of Cosa Nostra and as far as I can tell there were no LCN members cooperating in and around Youngstown.

also interesting according to the pimp he first reached out to romeo , who sided with Mollica ,Then Milano stepped inafter word came from the pindellis dad , With all those cleveland guys allegegelly integrating Mollica and Romeo , does that point to Romeo being in the Cleveland family ? I dont see cleveland made guys integrating a Pittsburgh made man like this , assuming what the pimp says is accurate

the informant stated it was about 1958 , in 1958 there was with the new sheriff in richland county. rb Bliss , who interesting claimed he was cracking down on hookers in the county.

I am thinking there are four or five informants just in mallamos crew

by B. » Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:35 pm

Yeah, after revisiting the Pindelli report I agree it wasn't necessarily related to "Calabrian organization" affairs. It is interesting though that the son of a Pittsburgh member associated with the Calabrian network was given assistance by Milano in connection with a prostitution-related dispute.

There were at least two and possibly three informants connected to Youngstown who had information on the Calabrian group, one that was initiated into the Camorra and another that simply knew about the organization and had relatives who were part of it. Neither was a made member of Cosa Nostra and as far as I can tell there were no LCN members cooperating in and around Youngstown.

by **Stroccos** » Fri Apr 26, 2024 4:27 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2024 2:57 am Speaking of connections between Agrigento and the Calabrian Camorra, I posted this a while back but didn't elaborate because we were waiting to get deeper into this topic.

A Youngstown informant said there was a secret "inner group" (Camorra) within the Calabrian Mutual Aid Society in Youngstown and that Calogero Vizzini (native of Agrigento) had been one of the "instructors" of the "inner group" and "taught" men like Mallamo and the Romeos but was not permitted to attend meetings of the secret "inner group" because he wasn't Calabrese. Thanks to the other account of the Youngstown Camorra / 'ndrangheta induction, we can easily understand what the source was talking about even though he himself hadn't officially joined despite being invited.

It's pretty clear in this account that Vizzini was not a formal part of the local Camorra himself but mentored and very likely sponsored some of these Calabrian Camorristi into the Pittsburgh Family. It shows the close relationships that were at play and suggests that even if Vizzini was not a formal part of their Camorra group he was in a position of influence with them and may have helped them join the mafia. Vizzini was close to Pittsburgh member Charles Cavallaro in Youngstown who was also from Agrigento, possibly Villaseta. Based on a report from the early 1960s, it looks like Cavallaro was once in the Romeo decina alongside guys like Mallamo and other Calabresi. Mallamo also took over Cavallaro's interests after his murder.

You also see Caltanissetta in these Youngstown circles like Vincenzo Lupo and Joe DiCarlo Jr. from Vallelunga and Detroit member Francesco Cammarata from San Cataldo. Vizzini was very close to Cammarata.

There is def a pattern emerging of central Sicily (i.e. the eastern side of the mafia's historic sphere of influence) in connection with Calabrians and we see it in both North America and Italy.

Was Mallamo whole crew informants? , as far as i can tell most of them were , shows that they had no respect for mallamos camaroa

pinedellis son regarding the meeting with MIlano over the prostocution in mansfield ohio , at the meeting was Leo Moceri , ernest lasalle , tony delsanter and Jimmy Lafatch , along with Milano , Romeo and TOny MOliica (who spouse to in charge of mansfield ), Being as everyone there is alleged to have been made in the cleveland family , it sounds more of a Cleveland family figuring out the issue as opposed to a camora only issue,

by **chin_gigante** » Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:46 am

Managed to read article 4 today on the substack. Once again, very well written. It's been fascinating getting to learn so much about a subject I until recently knew next to nothing about.

by **PolackTony** » Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:13 am

Proletarian187 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:11 am We are not Carbonari
We are not realists
But we are Camorrists
And we f*ck this and that

At least they were subtle, huh?

Realisti here meant “royalists/monarchists”, the pro-Bourbon political movement (often called Sanfedelismo) that opposed the “Jacobin” republicanism advocated by the Carbonari during the period of Napoleonic occupation of the Kingdom of Naples in the early 19th century. The royalists also had secret societies, similar to the Carbonari. The song emphasizes that Camorristi had no political loyalties except to themselves.

by **Proletarian187** » Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:11 am

We are not Carbonari
We are not realists
But we are Camorrists
And we f*ck this and that

At least they were subtle, huh?

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TMA: The Camorra's Influence on American Cosa Nostra

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